Intuitiveness

[kuranes]

Confession - I have been told that I have a very strong "Ne", and so perhaps my Intuition is strong or operating in top form, but I'm not really sure what this term means. So I have tried to pick up the meaning by context.

I guess we should also look at "Ni", but I am not speaking of strictly Jungian or MBTI meanings here. The terms "intuitive" and "counter-intuitive" are used a lot in common parlance, and I sometimes wonder if I am the only one here who is unsure exactly what we as a society mean by this. In the lexicon of the vernacular, we will often hear about how things can be designed so as to be "more intuitive".

I have a friend who designs web portals for big companies. The way they attempt to distinguish themselves from competitors is by emphasizing the "user friendliness" of their creations. So various studies have been done over time showing how people tend to want to use or see things, and this is taken into account more so than systems designed that presumably don't care too much about ease of use. ( By using the word "presumably" I don't mean that I have never encountered a system that is hard to use. )

When we look at making things "easier to use" whose ease of use is being considered ? Would a person of one type find a system designed for another difficult ? There are probably some principles of design that apply to nearly all people, but it would be interesting to see those which are specific to type or other category.

I'm often surprised, when trying to achieve some new thing on my computer, as to how many times I must specify that I want something done. I was trying to get some printer software set up one day and was having trouble. I don't remember all of the details, but it was a good thing that my tech friend was along to help me with some hurdles. I kept thinking that I had specified what I wanted to do, but was not getting a response. He showed me that I must indicate once more which printer I was referring to, and some other things that seemed "obvious" to me. I only have the one printer, for example, and so it hadn't occurred to me that I would have to specify which one I was referring to more than once. Sometimes it seems to me that the default mode should refer to simpler and more commonly desired actions. I assume that this is what is meant by "counter-intuitive".

However, I will sometimes see people here referring to things as being "counter-intuitive" that I would not have known to classify as such.

What relation does "intuitiveness" have with 'instinct" ?

I told a friend that I was supposed to be intuitive based on my "N", and he asked me what that meant. I said "Well, it can refer to many things" which is always a safe answer. I continued, treading on thinner ice. "Intuitives are often thinking about the past or future intensely enough that they can be said to be 'living' there."

"I've noticed hat you don't pay much attention to time, Kuranes" he said.

"I pay attention to time when I'm focused on doing that, but I'm often not so focused" was my answer. "Intuitives also are good at recognizing patterns" I added.

"So a Sensor, then, is somebody who lives more in the present moment" he said.

"Yes", I answered. "That's my understanding of it. There's more to it than just these aspects" I added, in a tone of knowledgeable dismissal.

 

["?"]

Kuranes based on Myers-Briiggs, and Berens more specifically what you example in your friends designing and your inability to get the software to run correctly is Se. Keirsey uses words in his books that come close to one another with NT and SP types. Where Ne type users use intuition, Se type users use instinct. This is most exampled in ESTPs being able to get the gist of a situation where it looks as though they have taken in little and their patented statement when all else fells read the instructions. You appear to be alluding to Se, which is no surprise since Jung said that when he spoke to people claiming to prefer Ne, what they were describing to him was Se.

 

[wolfy]

In everyday use I think intuition is using your five senses combined with your experience to understand what you are are perceiving. The speed of recognition is unconcious so seems to come from nowhere. To recognise a correct pattern and an incorrect one.

Counter-intuitive means the solution is opposite to what you would imagine from common knowledge.
For example to lose weight eat more. More good food that is.

Instinct is inborn. Intuition is developed.

Intuition is an interesting subject. Check out Gary Kleins work some day.

Amazon.com Review
Gary Klein studies decision-making in the field, tagging along with firefighters, standing by in intensive-care units, and watching chess masters play lightning-fast "blitz" games to learn how people make choices with time constraints, limited information, and changing goals. From this research, he and his associates have developed a theory of "naturalistic decision-making."

Sources of Power essentially lends the validity of scientific research to techniques that many of us use every day. There's intuition, which is based not on instantaneous insight but on the rapid (perhaps even subconscious) interpretation of perceptual cues.

 

[kuranes]

Counter-intuitive means the solution is opposite to what you would imagine from common knowledge.
For example to lose weight eat more. More good food that is.

I'd sorta gotten that far with understanding what CI meant, by context, but I see people talking about what would be CI re: ( for example ) socio-economics, and it is not always clear to me how those POV's were arrived at.

Instinct is inborn.

How ?

Intuition is developed.

When I had heard the phrase "women's intuition" in the past, I almost thought it was meant to suggest an "inborn" talent.

So intuitiveness has to do with using incrementally collected "knowledge" of the world to make ever increasing sense of patterns - so as to "recognize" more meaning in them. I wonder if it is using "logic" as much as it is "re-framing", due to seeking an ever bigger overview of a "mapped situation" or factors "ecology" ( in the broader sense of meaning for that last word. ) When using intuition on people questions versus other kinds of phenomena, would Feelers have an advantage when it comes to accessing the information quickly ?

Intuition is an interesting subject. Check out Gary Kleins work some day.

OK, thanks.

Amazon.com Review
Gary Klein studies decision-making in the field, tagging along with firefighters, standing by in intensive-care units, and watching chess masters play lightning-fast "blitz" games to learn how people make choices with time constraints, limited information, and changing goals. From this research, he and his associates have developed a theory of "naturalistic decision-making."

This seems like it might be a good read. I was just thinking of "speed chess" in the thread on "What Kind of TV Show Would you have ?", when it comes to people who are competently glib having an advantage in live debates.

Where Ne type users use intuition, Se type users use instinct. This is most exampled in ESTPs being able to get the gist of a situation where it looks as though they have taken in little and their patented statement when all else fells read the instructions. You appear to be alluding to Se, which is no surprise since Jung said that when he spoke to people claiming to prefer Ne, what they were describing to him was Se.

So is "instinct" the Sensor equivalent of Intuition ? I wonder how it is accumulated or transmitted between generations ?

 

["?"]

In everyday use I think intuition is using your five senses combined with your experience to understand what you are are perceiving. The speed of recognition is unconcious so seems to come from nowhere. To recognise a correct pattern and an incorrect one.

That in my understanding is a great connotation of instinct which is used by Se types. The five senses, the experience, etc. The more experience you acquire the greater ease of using instinct which seems like you are taking in little, but you are reacting to past experiences. Granted Ne could do the same without the use of the five senses, however Ni does not require any experience and is our sixth sense.

 

["?"]

So is "instinct" the Sensor equivalent of Intuition ? I wonder how it is accumulated or transmitted between generations?

From all I understand about type yes, Se types (not Si) use instinct along with Ti and Ne to a point. What we understand as intuition is what Ni types use. It has no bearing on the five senses, but comes from the sixth sense. Instincts get easier for perceiving types, over time and as they gain experience. I think Lenore Thomson gives good examples in her book when referring to a baseball player stealing a base using their Ti.

 

[kuranes]

Can you expand on what you mean by the "sixth sense" ?

 

[Totenkindly]

.... I think Lenore Thomson gives good examples in her book when referring to a baseball player stealing a base using their Ti.

I thought that was an excellent description, with Ti operating in real-time and adjusting systematically to everything occurring in the moment.

 

["?"]

I thought that was an excellent description, with Ti operating in real-time and adjusting systematically to everything occurring in the moment.

Would you connote that as using instinct as oppose to intuition (Ni) as we understand it?

 

["?"]

Can you expand on what you mean by the "sixth sense" ?

sixth sense
–noun a power of perception beyond the five senses; intuition: His sixth sense warned him to be cautious.

Based on the example given in this definition, one using instinct would have instantly taken in the immediate environment (ie, the roads are icy) and analyzed with their introverted judging function that they need to be cautious of accidents only to notice an accident miles down the road. Intuition may not even consider the icy road or connect the consequences however something comes over the person that says be cautious, so they do only to notice an accident down the road. The trick is did you instantly take in and analyze the probable consequences using IJ/EP or was this a sixth sense phenomenon using IP/EJ? The action is so fast and subtle, you may not know in real time. However some examples given when discussing Ni is when you feel compelled to call a relative that you have not spoken to for a long time and find that they were just in an accident.

 

[kuranes]

Based on the example given in this definition, one using instinct would have instantly taken in the immediate environment (ie, the roads are icy) and analyzed with their introverted judging function that they need to be cautious of accidents only to notice an accident miles down the road. Intuition may not even consider the icy road or connect the consequences however something comes over the person that says be cautious, so they do only to notice an accident down the road. The trick is did you instantly take in and analyze the probable consequences using IJ/EP or was this a sixth sense phenomenon using IP/EJ? The action is so fast and subtle, you may not know in real time. However some examples given when discussing Ni is when you feel compelled to call a relative that you have not spoken to for a long time and find that they were just in an accident.

You hopefully forgive my unfamiliarity with the "base stealing" example ( and the book it was in ) and perhaps the "icy road" example, too, assuming that it originally came in a more expanded form.

It sounds like you are meaning "sixth sense" in the usual sense of something traditional science hasn't studied much yet. This is the first time I have seen "intuition" referred to this way in the MBTI oriented discussions.

I'm not saying that everything has to fit in to "traditional science" by any means. I have enjoyed wondering about the speculations of Rupert Sheldrake, for example.

I'm trying to make sure I understand the terminology correctly, is all. When we say "intuition" here on this board, are we all referring to approximately the same thing ?

 

[wolfy]

How is instinct inborn
Instinct is built into us, it is a fixed action pattern. Certain instincts have been built into us through evolution.

So intuitiveness has to do with using incrementally collected "knowledge" of the world to make ever increasing sense of patterns - so as to "recognize" more meaning in them

Your own collected knowledge and experience combined with instinct. Yes.

Women's intuition
Maternal instinct plus intuition.

In everyday use I think intuition is using your five senses combined with your experience to understand what you are are perceiving. The speed of recognition is unconcious so seems to come from nowhere. To recognise a correct pattern and an incorrect one.

I think N types also use their five senses and experience to build their intuitions. N types are abstract in nature so build models in their head. Everybody does this of course but N have a preference for this. So the models they have built are also a part of their accumulated base. That is why they tend to move laterally in their thinking.

Concrete intuition and abstract intuition so to speak.

Can someone teach me how to multi quote please ?

 

[blanclait]

^
just type in [guote] whateryouwanttowrite [/guote]

of course use the word "quote" instead of "goute"

based on what i just read, the boundary between instinct and intuition in terms of recognition seems relatively difficult. no?

 

[nellgwynn55]

I believe instinct is more of a physical, active response. One example of an instinctive response would be of a new born mammal that gets to its feet and seeks its mothers nipple. There is no conscious thought about what to do - just an action or behaviour.

Intuition on the other hand, is more of an internal awareness thing - a thought or gut feeling that informs us about the world around us (oh dear, that is a very INFJ / Enneagram 5 kind of statement).

Intuition I believe is a form of knowledge that is built up through experience. As a registered nurse with 30+ years of experience, I can walk through a ward of patients and tell you who is sickest. New nurses will tell me patient "x" is really unwell and "y" is doing really well...I can look at both patients and KNOW patient "y" is about to crash.

More and more these days, I believe I have probably unconsciously observed something about patient "y" that I have learnt over the years means a patient is likely to crash. It may be as subtle as the way the sweat beads on their lip, or the hint of a blue line around their lips for example, but somewhere that the unconsciously observed phenomenon has become associated in my mind with patients crashing. New nurses who rely more on the concrete, measurable observations - the blood pressure, oxygen levels, urine output -have yet to learn the significance of subtle signs and therefore their intuition about who is the sickest patient is often inaccurate.

Intuition = instinct coupled with experience.

 

[entropie]

I think about instinct as something being coded in our DNA through the years of evolution. For example babys can swim after birth or when you have a hunch about danger by instinctively connecting various information about your environment.

Intuition I see more as the ability of connecting the dots. I experienced there are people you can talk to in a way, where the discussion, if written down, would make no sense. In those situations the discussion is definitly based on experience but the ability of understanding your discussion partner somewhat exactly is not.

The general way, how intuition as compared to sensation in the way of the MBTI perceiving function should work, is how people perceive a given situation. To go on my old "party example" for instance: if a sensor comes to a party, where he knows noone, he is going to actively change that through perceiving what is given in the current situation. That ability often bears the ability to remember things someone said to you, even the person who said it, does not remember. It is analyzing the scenery through turning towards the real and tangible.

While the intuitor is more likely to develop his own game plan. He would notice crucial things about the scenery but the main way of perception will be through ones own imagination. Strong feelings or convictions will flash into the mind, like for example "ouh man the guy with the armani coat, haven't had sex in a long time." or "if that woman treats her flowers the way she looks at people, no wonder, if they were dead".

To distinguish theory from reality, it has to be strongly remembered that every MBTI personality uses S or N likely. So there is no real thing like "intuitors" or "sensors". It is more defined by oneselves preferences, which one has given, while taking the MBTI test.