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Random political thought thread.

SensEye

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Trump's plan to stop the current housing crisis in the US is mass deportations and attacking every type of legal immigration that exists. So when you keep mush mouthing that legal immigration bullshit just remember that every right wing government wants the same things no matter where they are in the world.
Don't hold me responsible for Trump's idiotic policies. You will not be able to find one post on this or any other forum were I support Trump. I even admitted he is worse candidate than Harris. That's a low bar to get under.

Doesn't mean sensible policies on immigration are not wise. Your love of open borders will eventually come back to bite you and all the other woke dogma lovers who believe no pragmatism is required in making policy.
 
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No one has absolute freedom, even in an absence of government. The freedom we have is relative, and depends on the circumstances in which we live. And yes - we could do better. One of our goals, and the goal of our leaders, should be to maximize that freedom for everyone. My personal view is that we should start from the default that we are free to do whatever we want, and then place only those limits necessary to maximize freedom for others. We are not free to murder, rape, and steal, for instance, because that comes at the cost of someone else's more fundamental freedoms to security in their person and property. Every limitation placed on us by the government should have to pass a similar test. Many do not.
I often think of social expectations as a sort of restrictive cage. For instance, if you do something that is distinct from how everyone else does them, it might draw suspicion even if it's not illegal, simply because it's different. If it's different enough and someone sees you doing that, they might call the authorities, or even act as vigilantes if you are the wrong skin color, like in the case of Trayvon Martin.

Like what if we had adults carrying super soakers and engaging in a water gun battle across the city? Do you think that would fly?

The simple fact is that people really don't like it when other people are different, and this fact is pretty consistent in all kinds of different environments. How is that freedom?
 

Coriolis

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I often think of social expectations as a sort of restrictive cage. For instance, if you do something that is distinct from how everyone else does them, it might draw suspicion even if it's not illegal, simply because it's different. If it's different enough and someone sees you doing that, they might call the authorities, or even act as vigilantes if you are the wrong skin color, like in the case of Trayvon Martin.

Like what if we had adults carrying super soakers and engaging in a water gun battle across the city? Do you think that would fly?

The simple fact is that people really don't like it when other people are different, and this fact is pretty consistent in all kinds of different environments. How is that freedom?
If you don't act as you wish to avoid the concrete reactions of others (e.g. verbal or physical violence, exclusion, or other persecution), then your freedom is being curtailed by social expectations, assuming what you wanted to do wasn't objectively harmful, like stealing. If you curb your actions simply out of fear that others will disapprove, then you are limiting your own freedom. Sure - lots of folks might disapprove of roving consensual adult water gun battles, but provided they don't soak "unwilling combatants" or disrupt other activity, I think it would be fine.

Too many people place limits on themselves that are far more restrictive than anything they are likely to encounter from others. That is very sad, and frustrating.
 

The Cat

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I often think of social expectations as a sort of restrictive cage. For instance, if you do something that is distinct from how everyone else does them, it might draw suspicion even if it's not illegal, simply because it's different. If it's different enough and someone sees you doing that, they might call the authorities, or even act as vigilantes if you are the wrong skin color, like in the case of Trayvon Martin.

Like what if we had adults carrying super soakers and engaging in a water gun battle across the city? Do you think that would fly?

The simple fact is that people really don't like it when other people are different, and this fact is pretty consistent in all kinds of different environments. How is that freedom?
Shut up and color.
 

ceecee

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Don't hold me responsible for Trump's idiotic policies. You will not be able to find one post on this or any other forum were I support Trump. I even admitted he is worse candidate than Harris. That's a low bar to get under.

Doesn't mean sensible policies on immigration are not wise. Your love of open borders will eventually come back to bite you and all the other woke dogma lovers who believe no pragmatism is required in making policy.
I never said that and the people you have attributed it to in the past also didn't say it. Stop believing right wing propaganda.

 
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If you don't act as you wish to avoid the concrete reactions of others (e.g. verbal or physical violence, exclusion, or other persecution), then your freedom is being curtailed by social expectations, assuming what you wanted to do wasn't objectively harmful, like stealing. If you curb your actions simply out of fear that others will disapprove, then you are limiting your own freedom.
That's a good point.

Sure - lots of folks might disapprove of roving consensual adult water gun battles, but provided they don't soak "unwilling combatants" or disrupt other activity, I think it would be fine.
It's just hypothetical; I was trying to think of a weird thing people could do that is harmless. Yes, bystanders wouldn't be drawn into it.
Too many people place limits on themselves that are far more restrictive than anything they are likely to encounter from others. That is very sad, and frustrating.
That is true. When I was younger, I was better at this, both in high school and most of college. I'm not sure what changed, but I think I felt a lot of pressure (from within) to be "grown-up" which meant conforming more to others expectations. That was probably a mistake. People would have liked me better if I hadn't tried so hard to make everyone think I was normal and responsible.

I think in the spring and summer I've started to ignore more of those limits. I'm sure there are others I could ignore; I would have to chew on that.
 

Coriolis

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That's a good point.


It's just hypothetical; I was trying to think of a weird thing people could do that is harmless. Yes, bystanders wouldn't be drawn into it.

That is true. When I was younger, I was better at this, both in high school and most of college. I'm not sure what changed, but I think I felt a lot of pressure (from within) to be "grown-up" which meant conforming more to others expectations. That was probably a mistake. People would have liked me better if I hadn't tried so hard to make everyone think I was normal and responsible.

I think in the spring and summer I've started to ignore more of those limits. I'm sure there are others I could ignore; I would have to chew on that.
I always wanted to be "grown up", too, but by whose standards? I tended to follow my own, which were often but not always aligned with expectations of others like parents, teachers, etc.

You should always consider others' expectations, but that doesn't mean you need to conform. It just means you need to have a realistic view of what will happen if you do or do not. You can then decide if those are reactions you are willing to endure, able to counter, or prefer not to face. There is nothing wrong with prioritizing your own safety - physical, mental, emotional, professional.
 

The Cat

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You'll never feel as grown up as you feel when you get your first Costco Executive Membership and your knees start hurting just because there's weather happening somewhere.
 

Tomb1

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You could address some of the issues with capital flight that way, an income earned where someone is working, where there job is, could be targeted in that way but in the UK when this has happened the boardrooms and higher salaried positions have just renegotiated their contracts in order that instead of income they get shares or other types of payment which are not taxed.

The only conceiveable argument for lower taxes on the higher incomes for me would be that at a certain point the costs of avoidance and evasion outweigh the cost of compliance with collection, public revenues do reflect that, it is a fact, and it could go some way to practically raising the necessary money for public expenditure, which in the UK at least had become a serious, serious problem (and probably wont be sorted out for a few generations).

This was not that public expenditure was unaffordable, the "great resignation", "lone parent families", "welfare dependency", or any of the other classic conservative bogeymen were not to blame, or any of the nouveau anxieties about "breeders", "over population" etc. (many of which are just trojans for older folk devilry anyway, "the poor they are too many" or racist thinking, in drag, to appeal to the sensibilities of new money homosexuals a lot of the time).

The existing and projected spending could be covered that way, even better spending on public services or infrastructure could be covered that way, depending on political choices, it could as easily be used to pay for tax relief for the mega rich as it was with Trump's administration, with no evidence what-so-ever of it resulting in anything other than nominal changes in private accounts of already obscenely wealthy individuals as they play games of who will be the richest man in the cemetary.

The problem is wealth inequality, specifically, I think, old money, and there is a problem in so far as it appears to be invincible and impervious to any type of taxation, market correction or control what-so-ever. There is no recession, depression or political decision making which will actually touch a certain population of wealthy elites, I'm increasingly no convinced that this group is effected by war, disease, racism or other prejudices, even law, moral or normative sanction can not and does not impact upon them, its not like anything that's been known in the past and you maybe only get a glimpse of it within some fictional narratives, for instance Dune.

A lot of the "minor controversaries", like those I mentioned already, but also environmental catastrophizing, climate change etc. and even the resistable rise of the various fascisms, biological vandalism and new chauvinisms, which begin trending, are just attempts at reforging connections, like the lilliputians attempting to bind Gullivar.

I largely suspect that the same elites will carry on ignoring the major social and environmental externalities, the wealth inequality will continue apace, all the older ideologies dont even have a proper way of conceiving what is happening or suggesting any alternative which does not amount to the "same old, same old", they are all really spent and exhausted, whatever the appeal of old fashioned racist ideologies have at the moment, I think its a flash in the pan, the final arbitor is money power, money values and old money trumps that.

A hell of a lot of forums online are dominated by discussions which are just trojans one way or another for this kind of thing, even the honest standard bearers opposing it dont realize the extent to which they've been wound up and set off in a fashion to provoke or amplify enmities which result in eventual spikes in what they are enthusiastically "resisting". The real world is changing to conform to that style too. Silencing or censoring or otherwise policing opinion, as it often is online and always through formal sanction, doesnt make it go away, no more than battling with private doubts or internalised voices on the same topics within the self means it goes away either. Though I do, ultimately, think its a side show, it all seems to me like children at a party squabbling over whether their favourite type of ice cream should be the only type of ice cream.

Whether or not the world can or should conform to your own thoughts, feelings, preferences is the stuff of politics and public discourse, not wealth inequality, even paying for public spending reflects the former rather than the later and always will. Which kind of makes much of it all a mute point really.

And that mute point nature is why I think there's declining interest in some forums, types of discussion, discourse or public engagement among people who arent part of the elites. Meaning the types of opinion that come to dominate are the most garish, nonsensical types, the idiocracy types, and you then have echo chambers the world over. Its what I've observed here over the last couple of years as an on looker.
I've got no problem with generosity. When people make a certain amount of money, it is time to give back. My issue is with the management of the money. I would facilitate the process of distribution from the top to the bottom through a more impersonal system of "direct deposit" (i.e. no strings attached) and let poor people decide how to utilize the money. I guarantee poverty would decrease. The working poor are in the trenches, they know better what to do with it than Washington. But the snobby mfckrs managing the money (i.e. bureaucrats in Washington) think they know better how poor people should be spending the money than poor people do. They obsfucate the wealth in programs, etc., and set ridiculous terms and conditions, high hoops to jump through, favoring bigger voting blocs over others and cultivating longer-term dependencies, solely for the purpose of increasing their own power....that's fake generosity, using the promise of generosity as a way to bait starving people into a longer-term power exchange. As a result, the poverty needle doesn't budge an inch
 
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ygolo

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The "Opportunity Economy" feels like perfect messaging to me.

If enough people in the center take her promises to be true, this will sway many to vote for Harris.

 

Lexicon

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He was not invited to tonight's debate.

But you can count on him.
Can he count on you?

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I always wanted to be "grown up", too, but by whose standards? I tended to follow my own, which were often but not always aligned with expectations of others like parents, teachers, etc.

I know this was a while ago but this requires clarification. I think what I'm referring to by grown up included things like getting ridding of my old toys (I miss the Lego sets particular), having "sensible politics" (these days my crazy wild politics seem much more sensible to me), avoiding marijuana or drinking too much (reinforced in part by a drug test at work). There may have also been some aspect of avoiding speaking too much about dorky subjects like science fiction franchises, but I think this is probably not a very large factor. My ex got me for Christmas a tea-infuser shaped like the Death Star, so it could not have been that big of a deal.

The discussion of expectations is a related but different topic that I may or may not go into it a later date.
 

The Cat

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I know this was a while ago but this requires clarification. I think what I'm referring to by grown up included things like getting ridding of my old toys (I miss the Lego sets particular), having "sensible politics" (these days my crazy wild politics seem much more sensible to me), avoiding marijuana or drinking too much (reinforced in part by a drug test at work). There may have also been some aspect of avoiding speaking too much about dorky subjects like science fiction franchises, but I think this is probably not a very large factor. My ex got me for Christmas a tea-infuser shaped like the Death Star, so it could not have been that big of a deal.

The discussion of expectations is a related but different topic that I may or may not go into it a later date.
Go get yourself some mother fucking legos.
 
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