Roe no mo?

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

You have to have good faith to have a discussion. Something im pretty sure she and others are capable of.

For it to be worth my time to engage with you you have to demonstrate that its worth my time to do so.

Which means using your noodle and materially engaging with my points.

If you wonder why I dont respond to you, its that i see no version of that where we dont just talk past each other.

Feel free to outperform my expectations.

I'm not wondering why you don't respond to me, lol.

To your credit, unlike some of the other right-wingers, at least you haven't written about how much I triggered you, and asked the mods to stop me from being mean.

 

[Coriolis]

Question:

Why should the word of a conservative be trusted given how little it seems to matter to them? They'll do whatever they can get away with: their " word" is worthless.


We can see this by the judges they appointed saying Roe vs. Wade was settled law. I expect the same level of honesty and transparency about a boatload of other issues.

Modern communications has made SCOTUS (and other) confirmation hearings as much of a circus as a thoughtful and reasoned examination of the candidates. We can probably find fault with the testimony of most SCOTUS candidates in recent years due to the politicisation of the process. The recent appointees' confirmation hearing remarks about Roe v. Wade, however are especially egregious, going far beyond the general evasiveness and vagueness often present in the responses.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Modern communications has made SCOTUS (and other) confirmation hearings as much of a circus as a thoughtful and reasoned examination of the candidates. We can probably find fault with the testimony of most SCOTUS candidates in recent years due to the politicisation of the process. The recent appointees' confirmation hearing remarks about Roe v. Wade, however are especially egregious, going far beyond the general evasiveness and vagueness often present in the responses.

I do think it's a relevant point that people are expecting people to trust them and engage in good-faith discussion when it's been repeatedly demonstrated how little they are actually interested in that.

What they want is for the other side to be constrained by a narrow set of parameters so that they can continue to use bad-faith tactics successfully. Additionally, it is hard to be clear what the rules are this particular week; they seem to evolve in accordance with what seems to be advantageous for them at the moment. Very peculiar how that works.

To me there is a difference between engaging in bad faith and zooming out for the larger context. The latter may seem off-topic to some, but it helps the clarify the entire dynamics and meaning of the current position. It is key for understanding why a current policy position, despite immutable and inviolable dogma that brooks no accommodation to any other view point at the moment, will likely be entirely different in the next decade. (In some cases brought about as a reaction to their own policy failures, but we should totes assume rationality is at play and they are right about everything this time right guyz?)

To understand the ever-shifting ideology of the American right, it is key to uncover what is consistent about it. Using this global holistic viewpoint, a few features begin to emerge.

 

[Indigo Rodent]

Economy in 21th century will require only more and more tech/education. Therefore if you alienate people who are into that you will have problems. Especially if your big dream is to be world's number one. The other countries are making their own silicon valley's so there will evidently be jobs there. Today no one is truly irreplaceable.

Isn't the tech side right wing leaning, and heavily supporting this kind of stuff, though?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Isn't the tech side right wing leaning, and heavily supporting this kind of stuff, though?

It is capitalism leaning and this kinda of move on Roe is deeply Christian based. Therefore this leads into the clash of Capitalism with Christian morals.
Right wing here is too broad or confusing term.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Isn't the tech side right wing leaning, and heavily supporting this kind of stuff, though?

Ahem... I'm a software developer and well to the left of Joe Biden. Close to Bernie Sanders level.

And the general attitude seems to be a sort of center-left liberalism. (Kind of echoing the actual opinions of a decent chunk of the college student body when I attended during Dubya's second term, despite the reputation of it as being a hotbed of radicalism; that may not still be the case now). Much more pro-free market than me, but nevertheless not in line with the cultural fixations of conservatives. In other words they wouldn't be in favor of the U.S becoming a theocratic state.

On average, I like these people despite the fact that some of my views differ (although I keep that quiet; work is not the appropriate place for that). They are generally often interested in pursuing knowledge and seem to have relatively high Openness to Experience. I think these personality traits shape their political attitudes.

I'd also say that it seems students for the most part arrived at college with the views they had for the rest of their time.

They may have refined or expanded it, but the school didn't teach them to not be conservatives, unlike the "madrassa" picture painted by some.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ahem... I'm a software developer and well to the left of Joe Biden. Close to Bernie Sanders level.

And the general attitude seems to be a sort of center-left liberalism. (Kind of echoing the actual opinions of a decent chunk of the college student body when I attended during Dubya's second term, despite the reputation of it as being a hotbed of radicalism; that may not still be the case now). Much more pro-free market than me, but nevertheless not in line with the cultural fixations of conservatives. In other words they wouldn't be in favor of the U.S becoming a theocratic state.

On average, I like these people despite the fact that some of my views differ (although I keep that quiet; work is not the appropriate place for that). They are generally often interested in pursuing knowledge and seem to have relatively high Openness to Experience. I think these personality traits shape their political attitudes.

I'd also say that it seems students for the most part arrived at college with the views they had for the rest of their time.

They may have refined or expanded it, but the school didn't teach them to not be conservatives, unlike the "madrassa" picture painted by some.

Long story short: tech sector in the west is generally libertarian right. While crashing Roe is more of a authoritarian/traditional right move, what is because Roe is basically libertarian left idea more than anything else. However to many on the libertarian right this will still seem as an attack on them.

 

[Indigo Rodent]

Ahem... I'm a software developer and well to the left of Joe Biden. Close to Bernie Sanders level.

And the general attitude seems to be a sort of center-left liberalism. (Kind of echoing the actual opinions of a decent chunk of the college student body when I attended during Dubya's second term, despite the reputation of it as being a hotbed of radicalism; that may not still be the case now). Much more pro-free market than me, but nevertheless not in line with the cultural fixations of conservatives. In other words they wouldn't be in favor of the U.S becoming a theocratic state.

On average, I like these people despite the fact that some of my views differ (although I keep that quiet; work is not the appropriate place for that). They are generally often interested in pursuing knowledge and seem to have relatively high Openness to Experience. I think these personality traits shape their political attitudes.

I'd also say that it seems students for the most part arrived at college with the views they had for the rest of their time.

They may have refined or expanded it, but the school didn't teach them to not be conservatives, unlike the "madrassa" picture painted by some.

I mean in wacky alt right nationalist/christian fundamentalist sense.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I mean in wacky alt right nationalist/christian fundamentalist sense.

Definitely not as far as I know on the programming side.

To be able to do well in the job you have to be able think for yourself so it tends to screen out people who regard that as Satanic.

 

[ceecee]

democrats tend to be weak-willed little pussies who like to walk a centrist line. I believe that to actually organize and gather support for a bill designed to protect abortions in the past would have been seen by them as political suicide, so no one really pushed it as long as Roe V Wade stood. They could have their cake and eat it too by still saying they would support defending the Roe V Wade decision when asked on campaign stumps, whilst not worrying about the potential damage that might come from supporting a full-on federal law. Except they didn't account for a conservative court reversing said decision down the line. Because they were and are idiots primarily concerned with winning the foreseeable election cycles.

Plus why wouldn't you vote for this instead? A party full of real men.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Plus why wouldn't you vote for this instead? A party full of real men.

Wait this was a Simpson's joke.

 

[Luminous]

Wait this was a Simpson's joke.

 

[ygolo]

What about Planned Parenthood vs Casey?

Can't Biden now appoint 4 new justices?

There's no pretending the court isn't political anymore.

Also, if a political civil war does happen, do the Republicans believe they will win because they have the guns and the military experience? The Democrats has more people and the youth? The outcomes of the civil war seem like either destruction of the whole nation or loss of the Republicans.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I mean in wacky alt right nationalist/christian fundamentalist sense.

It's my understanding that there's a difference between "tech" and "silicon valley tech", and that the latter does tend to have strong libertarian leanings. I could be wrong. eta: I know I watched some documentary about the Koch Brothers having a ridiculous excessive influence on young Silicon Valley guys, but can't begin to remember what it was about. It might have been about the Koch Brothers. Or i read it somewhere. Who knows./eta

My son writes code for NetherRealm video games in Chicago (where JVDB is), and I haven't heard any such thing about those he works with, went to school with, or interned with (all also in Chicago). And I do hear about it when he has to be around it; some of his high-school friends have veered off in that direction.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Plus why wouldn't you vote for this instead? A party full of real men.

The pure masculinity in this photo* is overwhelming. *fans self*

*(possibly taken in parent's super sexy basement?)

 

[Indigo Rodent]

Definitely not as far as I know on the programming side.

To be able to do well in the job you have to be able think for yourself so it tends to screen out people who regard that as Satanic.

I guess you've never been on a 4chan adjacent site? Alt-righters often mask in real life to not commit a professional/social suicide. I saw enough of programmers who were neo-nazis or fundamentalists. You're just assuming that the enemy isn't able to arrive at their views through logic, possibly assuming that being logical makes you "safe".

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I guess you've never been on a 4chan adjacent site? Alt-righters often mask in real life to not commit a professional/social suicide. I saw enough of programmers who were neo-nazis or fundamentalists. You're just assuming that the enemy isn't able to arrive at their views through logic, possibly assuming that being logical makes you "safe".

I am grateful that I have never spent time on 4chan. I am not sure I have ever seen anything good come from 4chan, unless that was the origin of Admiral Ackbar memes.

It depends on what the assumptions the logic rests.

They believe what they do becauee of certain key assumptions that they see as fundamental to their identity. The logical reasons are built upon these assumptions. They did not perform thorough investigations and come to these conclusions, rather they have to opted to grab bits of ideas that can shore up these assumptions. At the core something fundamentally irrational can usually be found even if well hidden.

If one is not using logic, or just attempting to uncover the truth of the world, how can one expect to effectively change the world for the better?

I do believe intuition and feeling and sensation have their value ( including in service of progressive causes), but I am inclined to believe a large portion of the failure of the progressive movement is due to not using more thinking. The idea of rationality should not be conceded to twerps like Ben Shapiro.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I do believe intuition and feeling and sensation have their value ( including in service of progressive causes), but I am inclined to believe a large portion of the failure of the progressive movement is due to not using more thinking. The idea of rationality should not be conceded to twerps like Ben Shapiro.

Yeap, American progressives evidently messed up at that. Reactive behavior that doesn't really have a thought out back up behind it. However this is the outcome of the collapse in genuine education. Therefore now sides are full of people that are at least bordering morons. What in the ends leads to the current scenario that the country is crashing regardless of who takes charge.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yeap, American progressives evidently messed up at that. Reactive behavior that doesn't really have a thought out back up behind it. However this is the outcome of the collapse in genuine education. Therefore now sides are full of people that are at least bordering morons. What in the ends leads to the current scenario that the country is crashing regardless of who takes charge.

I was fortunate enough to receive a fairly good education so I believe in using that to further causes I believe in.

I feel like I have witnessed a sort of spastic flailing about among progressives in the past 6 to 8 years (although I would say it is not negative on all fronts, fortunately), and observing the disastrous consequence of these failures convinced me that perhaps there may be some value to sharing my crazy ideas.

I used to be more open to what is often labeled as more "pragmatic" thinking. Considering how badly the proponents of "pragmatic" liberalism botched 2016 (right down to their mental models of the Republican electorate) is one thing that shifted me. Seeing how little the other side cares about being pragmatic and still seems fixated on "culture" as a top issue even after the pandemic and January 6th is another. Yet another is observing how the pandemic response confirms that the priorities of current American society are very much in line with what crazy college radical me suspected.

I have come to the conclusion that what is truly pragmatic in unprecedented times is coming up with new ideas and trying new things.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Right wing here is too broad or confusing term.

The Right Wing in the US comprises roughly 4-5 subgroups (obviously they overlap and some people could fall under more than one category)

Anarcho-capitalists/Right Libertarians
Evangelicals/Dominionists
Paleoconservatives/Economic Nationalists
Race Nationalists
Neoconservatives

What unifies them is a shared hatred for progressivism and anything vaguely resembling communism