[Type 1] The sad side of Type 1 and why most of 1s are probably mistyped as some other type.

[Indigo Rodent]

One big hole in descriptions and understanding of Enneagram type 1 is that it doesn't take into account well researched downsides of perfectionism like procrastination, loss of productivity, tendency towards depression, etc.
General description of Enneagram 1 sounds like super dysfunctional/underdeveloped version of the type and I think it's associated mainly with TJs because they can get away with this level of dysfunction because they can just brute-force with their Te ad infinitum (and also why being emotionally stunted is such a big part of the description).
Someone who isn't a TJ will also probably try to avoid antagonizing people with constant nitpicking especially if they are in physical proximity of a type 8 ENTJ.

Like I don't know why when it comes to enneagram people assume that being a perfectionist somehow makes people an embodiment of (pretty narrow) idea perfection instead of in many cases simply being unsustainable and self-defeating.

I'm Type 1 but mistyped as Type 4 because Type 1 description is heavily based on being ISTJ and not being disabled too.

From my perspective as an ENFP, being a 1 is quite exhausting. Like it's heavily linked to depression, exhaustion, misery and disappointment with the world and alienation. From what I noticed type 1 started solidify in me in my teenage years, and at that time I also went from being hyperactive to being often tired and depressed (probably due to overburdening with inferior Si).
I had pretty bad childhood, where I experienced failure of multiple social systems starting with family and justice system and ending with schools and peers.

My experience with psychological liquidation by the society:
Stage 1:
Betrayal and financial abuse by father and traitors from family courts that cooperated with him.
Results:
Poverty in childhood, fear of rejection, violent reaction to rejection, high stress.
Stage 2 1989-2000:
Racism and bullying at kindergarten and primary and first high school:
Results:
Social anxiety, lots of anger, fear of sudden movements, shaking hands, etc.
Stage 3 1997-1999:
Being targeted by two psychological abusers in the end of primary school:
Insomnia, IBS, obsessive thoughts regarding enemies, school phobia, worsened concentration, worsened memory, fear of conflicts, attacks of rage (the last only stopped with help of mindfulness of breath meditation around 2015), getting ill often, general anxiety, depression, etc.
Stage 4: 2003-2005
Being repeatedly attacked by neo-nazis on streets up to when I was 21, when I have trained Krav Maga for some time which caused the attacks to stop do to increase of my intimidation skill.
Results:
Desire to exterminate my biological enemies (at the time neo-nazis and violent criminals in general), stress about enablers my enemies, violent nightmares every night for two years, hyper-vigilance, memory and concentration getting even worse, etc.

I lived in the society with abuse and was deprived of mental and physical health through the abuse and never received an awesome compensation for it that belongs to me as Justice dictates.

These experiences resulted in me being very angry but also feeling strong need to free myself from the corruption of the society.
Like by the age of 15 or 16 I felt that strong drive to morally improve myself. There was also a sense of perfectionism when it comes to school but it really didn't work out well with my chronic health problems, learning disabilities, unstable family situation and probably type too - so basically I'd set out with perfectionist goals and predictably it wouldn't work out and I'd get burned out/resentful about it not working out like I wanted to after about a month or so, which led to me getting much worse grades and attendance than I could - for example getting attendance around 50% instead of 75% or even 80%, average grades around 2/6 instead of 3-4/6, failed two years, etc.
Like I had very all or nothing approach to school because of perfectionism and it has basically set me up for failure in high school because of all the obstacles, all was unattainable, so the result was nothing. If I couldn't do school according to very high standards and with everything working according to the plan, I would just lose all motivation and spiral into depression.

There's also a social aspect. Which also comes with feeling of alienation. Like seeing the way alcohol, cigarettes, etc. are common in high school. I'd avoid stuff like smoking cigarettes - never smoked a single one and getting drunk - I got tipsy with beer like twice and hated how it changed behaviour and decreased self-control, so I stopped drinking alcohol altogether.
So, there's resentment that I live in society that isn't designed for being sober, non-smoker, etc. and that these things are corrupting and consuming and monopolizing social life, making it harder to find even place to party, friends, relationships, etc.
Like on ok-cupid even 90+% matches would be like drinks socially, women are obliged to shave their legs, tells beggars to get a job.

Another thing was that I'm into healthy nutrition since I started high school and stuff like that.

There are also general sense of resentment, disappointment, depression, etc. with general vileness of the society - stuff like ableist social Darwinism, general inhumanity, attempt to reduce people into enslaved robots, corruption, forcing people into poverty, malnutrition, etc. and general life being substandard and wrongly organized stuff - like how people are forced into overpopulated areas and forced to live on top another in blocks with speaker, talking, shouting, etc. noise, with hipster coffee houses made to be quirky but with no thought of comfort and ergonomy, books arriving dirty and damaged, etc. etc. etc.
Life just feels so hopeless and defective.

 

[Vendrah]

One big hole in descriptions and understanding of Enneagram type 1 is that it doesn't take into account well researched downsides of perfectionism like procrastination, loss of productivity, tendency towards depression, etc.
General description of Enneagram 1 sounds like super dysfunctional/underdeveloped version of the type and I think it's associated mainly with TJs because they can get away with this level of dysfunction because they can just brute-force with their Te ad infinitum (and also why being emotionally stunted is such a big part of the description).
Someone who isn't a TJ will also probably try to avoid antagonizing people with constant nitpicking especially if they are in physical proximity of a type 8 ENTJ.

Like I don't know why when it comes to enneagram people assume that being a perfectionist somehow makes people an embodiment of (pretty narrow) idea perfection instead of in many cases simply being unsustainable and self-defeating.

I'm Type 1 but mistyped as Type 4 because Type 1 description is heavily based on being ISTJ and not being disabled too.

From my perspective as an ENFP, being a 1 is quite exhausting. Like it's heavily linked to depression, exhaustion, misery and disappointment with the world and alienation. From what I noticed type 1 started solidify in me in my teenage years, and at that time I also went from being hyperactive to being often tired and depressed (probably due to overburdening with inferior Si).
I had pretty bad childhood, where I experienced failure of multiple social systems starting with family and justice system and ending with schools and peers.

My experience with psychological liquidation by the society:
Stage 1:
Betrayal and financial abuse by father and traitors from family courts that cooperated with him.
Results:
Poverty in childhood, fear of rejection, violent reaction to rejection, high stress.
Stage 2 1989-2000:
Racism and bullying at kindergarten and primary and first high school:
Results:
Social anxiety, lots of anger, fear of sudden movements, shaking hands, etc.
Stage 3 1997-1999:
Being targeted by two psychological abusers in the end of primary school:
Insomnia, IBS, obsessive thoughts regarding enemies, school phobia, worsened concentration, worsened memory, fear of conflicts, attacks of rage (the last only stopped with help of mindfulness of breath meditation around 2015), getting ill often, general anxiety, depression, etc.
Stage 4: 2003-2005
Being repeatedly attacked by neo-nazis on streets up to when I was 21, when I have trained Krav Maga for some time which caused the attacks to stop do to increase of my intimidation skill.
Results:
Desire to exterminate my biological enemies (at the time neo-nazis and violent criminals in general), stress about enablers my enemies, violent nightmares every night for two years, hyper-vigilance, memory and concentration getting even worse, etc.

I lived in the society with abuse and was deprived of mental and physical health through the abuse and never received an awesome compensation for it that belongs to me as Justice dictates.

These experiences resulted in me being very angry but also feeling strong need to free myself from the corruption of the society.
Like by the age of 15 or 16 I felt that strong drive to morally improve myself. There was also a sense of perfectionism when it comes to school but it really didn't work out well with my chronic health problems, learning disabilities, unstable family situation and probably type too - so basically I'd set out with perfectionist goals and predictably it wouldn't work out and I'd get burned out/resentful about it not working out like I wanted to after about a month or so, which led to me getting much worse grades and attendance than I could - for example getting attendance around 50% instead of 75% or even 80%, average grades around 2/6 instead of 3-4/6, failed two years, etc.
Like I had very all or nothing approach to school because of perfectionism and it has basically set me up for failure in high school because of all the obstacles, all was unattainable, so the result was nothing. If I couldn't do school according to very high standards and with everything working according to the plan, I would just lose all motivation and spiral into depression.

There's also a social aspect. Which also comes with feeling of alienation. Like seeing the way alcohol, cigarettes, etc. are common in high school. I'd avoid stuff like smoking cigarettes - never smoked a single one and getting drunk - I got tipsy with beer like twice and hated how it changed behaviour and decreased self-control, so I stopped drinking alcohol altogether.
So, there's resentment that I live in society that isn't designed for being sober, non-smoker, etc. and that these things are corrupting and consuming and monopolizing social life, making it harder to find even place to party, friends, relationships, etc.
Like on ok-cupid even 90+% matches would be like drinks socially, women are obliged to shave their legs, tells beggars to get a job.

Another thing was that I'm into healthy nutrition since I started high school and stuff like that.

There are also general sense of resentment, disappointment, depression, etc. with general vileness of the society - stuff like ableist social Darwinism, general inhumanity, attempt to reduce people into enslaved robots, corruption, forcing people into poverty, malnutrition, etc. and general life being substandard and wrongly organized stuff - like how people are forced into overpopulated areas and forced to live on top another in blocks with speaker, talking, shouting, etc. noise, with hipster coffee houses made to be quirky but with no thought of comfort and ergonomy, books arriving dirty and damaged, etc. etc. etc.
Life just feels so hopeless and defective.

Ok but not okay in some ways, you've mixed two different threads, I think a part of your story should had been on a non-public & non-crawled area of the forum. So about the enneagram part per se...

I have been mostly undogmatic on typology and almost completely undogmatic on the past, so I don't blindly "believe" on the whole enneagram and always looks for other sources, other typology and I do mind how other typologies connects with each, specially to confirm or disconfirm "truths" inside every typology. And on that I do consider type 1 one of the most unreal types of the enneagram for two reasons...

First and most important, almost every enneagram has fears, desires and motivations that at least correlates with each and they do that strongly... Like type 2 fear of being unwanted and desire to be loved for example. When they go to other systems, they have a tendency to get inside the same umbrella. The same doesn't happen for Enneagram 1. Fear of being corrupted and to be good, to have integrity is one thing; Fear of being defective is another thing; And to be balanced is another entirely different thing. These go to 3 different umbrellas on Big Five and HEXACO (since the MBTI avoids the good and integrity part).

Fear of being corrupted, wanting to be good/have integrity relates to Honesty-Humility on HEXACO; Fear of being defective and the perfectionism development that comes from it belongs to Conscientiousness; Balance relates to low Neuroticism on Big Five but can relates to many things, its vague and isolated enough.

This is a common mistake across many typologies and even on some descriptions on Big Five: The belief that Conscientiousness, which is closest to the Js on a MBTI sense, are mostly super fair, while Low Conscientiousness, closest to Ps, are mostly cheaters. On RPG alignment, its not being able to differentiate lawful from good and being unable to recognize lawful evil or chaotic good and treat them as if it is the same.

However, Conscientiousness and Honesty-Humility are detached from each (the distortions from the worship of Conscientiousness may try to distort things); Being a perfectionist, being self-controlled, orderly, organized does not make you more honest and more ethical and doesn't make any more or less willing to cheat! But the enneagram mixes these at the very basic level (fears, desires and motivations) of enneagram 1.

The development of the "fear to be defective" side traits: Perfectionist, high self-controlled (specially and most important), conscientious, organized, orderly, rigid are the ones which clashes with Ne-dom the most, this is why I've already argued there is no ENFP/ENTP 1 and I am still firm on that. But in no way that means that ENFPs/ENTPs can't have a strong fear of being corrupt/evil and a strong desire to be good/to have integrity.

The second reason is that I have been on "data science types" but that is at the depths of the forum for the moment... And some enneagrams have profiles that are alike them... But there is not really a typical 1ish profile.

About the other part of the text that I think you should post on a non-crawled part of the forum.. I do feel the same way as you do.. Having all of that and being completely unable to do anything really tears me apart some days, for real. The "vileness" of society is a real thing where I can partially point out good tracks on that even on terms of numbers. And that indeed leaves me towards angry and depression, the former is easier to control (because I've find one MED at pharmacy that requires no prescription). I feel hopeless about it either and sometimes about my life either! And, you know, I don't even think I can bring a word of comfort. Because in the end of the day it really feels - and Im not alone on that and actually that is way more than just a feeling, this can be explained rationally as well - like we live on a hellish word and we do. In the end, all we can do is to minimize our own suffering and to minimize the suffering of others when we can - and acknowledge that in a lot of times we just can't - and to endure until the end of the existence and hope for a better place in the next life. Acknowledge that, regardless of what the liars which create artifacts to pretend life is fair in many forms of lie (like "we live on a meritocracy"), most of our lives and a lot of our outcomes are out of our control. However, there is no study on that (no wonder - anything that really threats the idea doesn't get much info or data so no one can back up), but there is about happiness at least. And most of our happiness is outside our own control.

I had read a while ago that something like well-being or life satisfaction (I can't remember the proper phrasing) was 30-35% composed of personality and the rest was based on genetics and environment. I couldn't find the link again, but I could find something similar, although there is a good bunch of broken links there is this link:

medical science - Is 50% of happiness determined by genetics? - Skeptics Stack Exchange

Although its a gross simplification and I also understand that extremes circumstances change this, for happiness it seems that only 40% is on our control and for life satisfaction even less. And these subjective evaluations are still somewhat on our control, people can steal or ruin your finances directly but they can't steal your happiness directly. Although this is not a strong argument because nobody seemed to ever did a proper study (conveniently, because it would obviously aid to debunk the "meritocracy myth"), from what we have now these are good indicators for a good estimations (on the optimistic side): That in general, 30-40% is on our control at best. These are how the outcome of your choices are limited regardless of your awareness. So basically if you screw a lot of things and made the actual wrong choices (evaluating what is wrong or right choice objectively is a very hard task for most of cases) but your other 60% are high or quite high, these are going to happen regardless and lots of people attributes that success for them doing the right choices while that wasn't at all the case.

For some specific outcomes, the environment can weight a lot - like your country of origin and your income, or your country origin and your quality of life.

Basically, since we can't change it, acceptance, resiliency and try to carry on with the least suffering as possible on our behalf and to minimize the suffering of others around us seems to me a reasonable way to go.

 

[Indigo Rodent]

Ok but not okay in some ways, you've mixed two different threads, I think a part of your story should had been on a non-public & non-crawled area of the forum. So about the enneagram part per se...

I have been mostly undogmatic on typology and almost completely undogmatic on the past, so I don't blindly "believe" on the whole enneagram and always looks for other sources, other typology and I do mind how other typologies connects with each, specially to confirm or disconfirm "truths" inside every typology. And on that I do consider type 1 one of the most unreal types of the enneagram for two reasons...

First and most important, almost every enneagram has fears, desires and motivations that at least correlates with each and they do that strongly... Like type 2 fear of being unwanted and desire to be loved for example. When they go to other systems, they have a tendency to get inside the same umbrella. The same doesn't happen for Enneagram 1. Fear of being corrupted and to be good, to have integrity is one thing; Fear of being defective is another thing; And to be balanced is another entirely different thing. These go to 3 different umbrellas on Big Five and HEXACO (since the MBTI avoids the good and integrity part).

Fear of being corrupted, wanting to be good/have integrity relates to Honesty-Humility on HEXACO; Fear of being defective and the perfectionism development that comes from it belongs to Conscientiousness; Balance relates to low Neuroticism on Big Five but can relates to many things, its vague and isolated enough.

This is a common mistake across many typologies and even on some descriptions on Big Five: The belief that Conscientiousness, which is closest to the Js on a MBTI sense, are mostly super fair, while Low Conscientiousness, closest to Ps, are mostly cheaters. On RPG alignment, its not being able to differentiate lawful from good and being unable to recognize lawful evil or chaotic good and treat them as if it is the same.

However, Conscientiousness and Honesty-Humility are detached from each (the distortions from the worship of Conscientiousness may try to distort things); Being a perfectionist, being self-controlled, orderly, organized does not make you more honest and more ethical and doesn't make any more or less willing to cheat! But the enneagram mixes these at the very basic level (fears, desires and motivations) of enneagram 1.

The development of the "fear to be defective" side traits: Perfectionist, high self-controlled (specially and most important), conscientious, organized, orderly, rigid are the ones which clashes with Ne-dom the most, this is why I've already argued there is no ENFP/ENTP 1 and I am still firm on that. But in no way that means that ENFPs/ENTPs can't have a strong fear of being corrupt/evil and a strong desire to be good/to have integrity.

The second reason is that I have been on "data science types" but that is at the depths of the forum for the moment... And some enneagrams have profiles that are alike them... But there is not really a typical 1ish profile.

I think that biggest problem with the concept of conscientiousness in Big Five is that it moralizes executive function/dysfunction. Same with some aspects of agreeableness - for example punctuality is defined as respecting other's time but in reality it's almost all about executive functioning and being able to work with time and space.
Like there's a big difference between not valuing something and not being able to do something/finding something difficult and failing because of difficulty of it.
Since Big 5 already disregards reality in that aspect, why not go further? Perhaps everyone who isn't working 24 hours per day, 7 days a week with 0 sleep in fact has conscientiousness of 0%?

The test is dumb because it doesn't measure difficulty of tasks. Like someone with ADHD going out of their way to be punctual and sometimes failing due to executive dysfunction probably ultimately cares more about punctuality than someone playing a cheated character that automatically succeeds all punctuality tests.

Also, since the creators of the test haven't bothered to take these obvious problems into account, I guess they were just lazy grifters and just delivered a botched test because they didn't care, so obviously they have very low conscientiousness XD .

But the general problem with perfectionism as defined in 1 descriptions is that it assumed that just because someone is one, they at the same time are capable of reaching that perfection and constantly maintaining it. It's oddly convenient that such a person then has only the definition of perfection that they can fulfil. For example, again like with conscientiousness why not have definition of perfection that involves working 24h per day, 7 days a week with 0 sleep? Suddenly everyone is "lazy" and "immoral" and there are no 1s in sight.

I would say that the main problem isn't the confusing lawful and moral aspect but rather confusing abilities/skills and disabilities with alignment altogether.

And in general the main problem is that the general assumption is that the necessary or even most common result of perfectionism is actually achieving perfection. The thing is that perfectionism is a very fragile system of motivation. As I mentioned in my example, I had repeated pattern of setting out impossible standards for myself in high school and later and then completely losing motivation/burning out then these standards turned out to be impossible to fulfill.

If we'd take into account psychological articles on downsides of perfectionism, we could create a profile of 1 as a chronic under-achiever, that is poorly motivated long-term, fragile, etc.

 

[Vendrah]

I think that biggest problem with the concept of conscientiousness in Big Five is that it moralizes executive function/dysfunction. Same with some aspects of agreeableness - for example punctuality is defined as respecting other's time but in reality it's almost all about executive functioning and being able to work with time and space.
Like there's a big difference between not valuing something and not being able to do something/finding something difficult and failing because of difficulty of it.
Since Big 5 already disregards reality in that aspect, why not go further? Perhaps everyone who isn't working 24 hours per day, 7 days a week with 0 sleep in fact has conscientiousness of 0%?

The test is dumb because it doesn't measure difficulty of tasks. Like someone with ADHD going out of their way to be punctual and sometimes failing due to executive dysfunction probably ultimately cares more about punctuality than someone playing a cheated character that automatically succeeds all punctuality tests.

Also, since the creators of the test haven't bothered to take these obvious problems into account, I guess they were just lazy grifters and just delivered a botched test because they didn't care, so obviously they have very low conscientiousness XD .

But the general problem with perfectionism as defined in 1 descriptions is that it assumed that just because someone is one, they at the same time are capable of reaching that perfection and constantly maintaining it. It's oddly convenient that such a person then has only the definition of perfection that they can fulfil. For example, again like with conscientiousness why not have definition of perfection that involves working 24h per day, 7 days a week with 0 sleep? Suddenly everyone is "lazy" and "immoral" and there are no 1s in sight.

I would say that the main problem isn't the confusing lawful and moral aspect but rather confusing abilities/skills and disabilities with alignment altogether.

And in general the main problem is that the general assumption is that the necessary or even most common result of perfectionism is actually achieving perfection. The thing is that perfectionism is a very fragile system of motivation. As I mentioned in my example, I had repeated pattern of setting out impossible standards for myself in high school and later and then completely losing motivation/burning out then these standards turned out to be impossible to fulfill.

If we'd take into account psychological articles on downsides of perfectionism, we could create a profile of 1 as a chronic under-achiever, that is poorly motivated long-term, fragile, etc.

I think your critiques for the Big Five derails a bit the thread... So I will answer in short.
Conscientiousness is much more than punctuality (punctuality is actually still an aspect of Conscientiousness and not Agreeableness if we take it as an aspect of Dutifulness; Its only related to Agreeableness in a way smaller extent) and working hard or not.
Big Five is a personality test; There are specific tests that are designed to measure "difficulty of tasks", I take this as ability and there are some out there on the webs. But at the same time, Big Five wasn't meant to be immune to the influence of these tests or ability in general, but it was proved later a not-so-good predictor of them.

And about what you wrote later, 1 is not actually one of the rarest types of the enneagram. I don't believe there is any reason for it to be the most common either if we take the "to be good/integrity" as an important part of 1 - you have "Im so sick of being surrounded by inhumanity and corruption" on your signature. I also don't take where you see the enneagram tackling abilities, skills and disabilities. As far as I know, only 5 with intelligence to a weak degree - quite weak on theory, not weak nor strong on "statistical-practice".

If perfectionist is bad or good as a motivator I don't really know...

 

[Indigo Rodent]

I think your critiques for the Big Five derails a bit the thread... So I will answer in short.
Conscientiousness is much more than punctuality (punctuality is actually still an aspect of Conscientiousness and not Agreeableness if we take it as an aspect of Dutifulness; Its only related to Agreeableness in a way smaller extent) and working hard or not.
Big Five is a personality test; There are specific tests that are designed to measure "difficulty of tasks", I take this as ability and there are some out there on the webs. But at the same time, Big Five wasn't meant to be immune to the influence of these tests or ability in general, but it was proved later a not-so-good predictor of them.

And about what you wrote later, 1 is not actually one of the rarest types of the enneagram. I don't believe there is any reason for it to be the most common either if we take the "to be good/integrity" as an important part of 1 - you have "Im so sick of being surrounded by inhumanity and corruption" on your signature. I also don't take where you see the enneagram tackling abilities, skills and disabilities. As far as I know, only 5 with intelligence to a weak degree - quite weak on theory, not weak nor strong on "statistical-practice".

If perfectionist is bad or good as a motivator I don't really know...

Big Five uses reported performance as indicator of personality which is wrong. Difficulty of tasks is a critical information. Because for example one person has it very easy to get somewhere on time - so automatically passes test, another has to do an easy difficulty test to get on time, so needs 5+ on D20 to get on time. Big Five will lie about being on time being less important to the second person. The test is basically designed to produce character assassination against people with invisible disabilities. It's pure evil.

I never said that 1 is the rarest, just that it's very easy for 1s to mistype because of misconceptions about perfectionism.
The whole association of 1s with TJs and descriptions based on TJs is based on abilities, though. It's based on assumption that the standards of 1 will be at high TJ performance.

By the way, even stuff like rigidity is pretty relative. I'm pretty sure I'm way more rigid than typical ENFP.

There are Enneatypes into which people mistype a lot - that is 4s - not sure if any others XD . Taking into account that 1s disintegrate towards 4, there is probably a lot 1s mistyped as 4s.

 

[Vendrah]

Big Five uses reported performance as indicator of personality which is wrong. Difficulty of tasks is a critical information. Because for example one person has it very easy to get somewhere on time - so automatically passes test, another has to do an easy difficulty test to get on time, so needs 5+ on D20 to get on time. Big Five will lie about being on time being less important to the second person. The test is basically designed to produce character assassination against people with invisible disabilities. It's pure evil.

I never said that 1 is the rarest, just that it's very easy for 1s to mistype because of misconceptions about perfectionism.
The whole association of 1s with TJs and descriptions based on TJs is based on abilities, though. It's based on assumption that the standards of 1 will be at high TJ performance.

By the way, even stuff like rigidity is pretty relative. I'm pretty sure I'm way more rigid than typical ENFP.

There are Enneatypes into which people mistype a lot - that is 4s - not sure if any others XD . Taking into account that 1s disintegrate towards 4, there is probably a lot 1s mistyped as 4s.

I think we are going nuts with big five here. Its true that one facet out of 30, that depending on the version is not even used, does account for "competency". But outside that there is no such ting as "reported performance". And I don't recall seeing questions directly on punctuality either at least from IPIP, and Im not sure if that is meant to have a "pass or no pass", and neither does have a clock pressuring you to end it "on time". I don't see the character assassination against people with invisible disabilities - how am I supposed to detect an "invisible disability"?

Perfectionism, orderliness, planning, rigid etc... these are character/personal traits, not abilities. If you have "a struggle" at them, its just means you are Pish or Low C naturally. I know there has been an worship of Conscientiousness movement and also subtly a J and a ENTJ worship on MBTI, but troth are misleading. There is no such thing as "TJ performance". At best you could call intelligent tests as "INTP performance" but that is forcing at least a bit.

 

[Indigo Rodent]

I think we are going nuts with big five here. Its true that one facet out of 30, that depending on the version is not even used, does account for "competency". But outside that there is no such ting as "reported performance". And I don't recall seeing questions directly on punctuality either at least from IPIP, and Im not sure if that is meant to have a "pass or no pass", and neither does have a clock pressuring you to end it "on time". I don't see the character assassination against people with invisible disabilities - how am I supposed to detect an "invisible disability"?

I guess it was one from idrlabs or something - it had results spread into sub-categories, IIRC. Just checked the test from open psychometrics which they say is IPIP Big Five Factor Markers and it has some stuff that falls under learning disabilities. They are usually diagnosed by doctors. But usually they are detected by gap between intent/effort and performance, that's how usually students get directed to get diagnosed in the first place. Like being chronically exhausted, problems with attention, not being able to write neatly/for extended period of time despite doing writing exercises, problems with reading despite learning how to read, problems with motion coordination, etc.

The concept of invisible disabilities is described on wikipedia:

Learning disability - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Especially relevant are learning disabilities:

Learning disability - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Developmental coordination disorder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Perfectionism, orderliness, planning, rigid etc... these are character/personal traits, not abilities. If you have "a struggle" at them, its just means you are Pish or Low C naturally. I know there has been an worship of Conscientiousness movement and also subtly a J and a ENTJ worship on MBTI, but troth are misleading. There is no such thing as "TJ performance". At best you could call intelligent tests as "INTP performance" but that is forcing at least a bit.

Measuring performance confuses character/personal traits and abilities. And the concept of conscientiousness implies character/personality/values but measures abilities (as said in Wikipedia article on it: "Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously.").

Looking at questions in the open psychometrics test:

I pay attention to details.
-Well, I do, I also happen to be too exhausted to function because of overusing inferior Si.

I leave my belongings around.
-How do you even interpret it? What is around? Like in random places? On designated piles? What's the relation of it to amount of belongings? What if you have well organized shelves and then run out of space in them but you don't have room for more shelves, just for piles of stuff?
Like you can't even compare amount of effort and space for 60 books, 5 sketchbooks, 50 magazines, and empty desk and some stuff and for example 300 books, 50 sketchbooks, 120 magazines, computer with all the cables, ebook reader, tablet, smartphone and some stuff x 10.

I make a mess of things.
-This is a symptom of learning disability - dyspraxia or ADHD.

I get chores done right away.
-People with ADHD tend to struggle with it. Or chronic fatigue, or depression or whatever that tanks energy levels or includes executive dysfunction.

I often forget to put things back in their proper place.
-This is a symptom of learning disability. For example ADHD. Like what does having poor memory to do with desire to do a task well and taking obligations seriously?

I shirk my duties.
-Like this one is basically the only one which could vaguely qualify as intent.

Most of these measure executive functioning/reliability/whatever ability not conscientiousness.

TJ performance is performance of someone that is energised by using Extroverted Thinking and Introverted Perception. The obvious result is ability to use Te and Pi for extended periods of time.

Obvious problem is lack of objective criteria of measurement. For example. Let's assign an ESTJ a duty that requires competently using Fi and Ne for extended periods of time and you'll see them overwhelmed and energy levels tanking and being unable to keep up with the duty. They may also get disgruntled and start shirking the duty altogether while muttering under their nose about "emotional labour" XD . Then their conscientiousness score will tank despite that they'd do fine if they had ben assigned a duty that requires them to use Te and Si instead of Fi and Ne.

Character traits and abilities are separate. For example I'm still most motivated by wanting to do stuff according to a plan. The problem is that I can't effectively plan long-term due to chronic health problems and learning disabilities. And it got worse, like 5 years ago because I can't even physically attend school or day job due to lower back injury forcing me to lie down every couple hours to not get worse again. So, currently my motivation to do anything is near the bottom. Now I'm never as motivated as I would be when starting a new semester back in high school and later schools and wanting to do everything right.

Funny thing is that processing/gathering information for this post and writing it took me, like, 6 hours.

 

[Vendrah]

I guess it was one from idrlabs or something - it had results spread into sub-categories, IIRC. Just checked the test from open psychometrics which they say is IPIP Big Five Factor Markers and it has some stuff that falls under learning disabilities. They are usually diagnosed by doctors. But usually they are detected by gap between intent/effort and performance, that's how usually students get directed to get diagnosed in the first place. Like being chronically exhausted, problems with attention, not being able to write neatly/for extended period of time despite doing writing exercises, problems with reading despite learning how to read, problems with motion coordination, etc.

The concept of invisible disabilities is described on wikipedia:

Learning disability - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Especially relevant are learning disabilities:

Learning disability - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Developmental coordination disorder - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Measuring performance confuses character/personal traits and abilities. And the concept of conscientiousness implies character/personality/values but measures abilities (as said in Wikipedia article on it: "Conscientiousness implies a desire to do a task well, and to take obligations to others seriously.").

Looking at questions in the open psychometrics test:

I pay attention to details.
-Well, I do, I also happen to be too exhausted to function because of overusing inferior Si.

I leave my belongings around.
-How do you even interpret it? What is around? Like in random places? On designated piles? What's the relation of it to amount of belongings? What if you have well organized shelves and then run out of space in them but you don't have room for more shelves, just for piles of stuff?
Like you can't even compare amount of effort and space for 60 books, 5 sketchbooks, 50 magazines, and empty desk and some stuff and for example 300 books, 50 sketchbooks, 120 magazines, computer with all the cables, ebook reader, tablet, smartphone and some stuff x 10.

I make a mess of things.
-This is a symptom of learning disability - dyspraxia or ADHD.

I get chores done right away.
-People with ADHD tend to struggle with it. Or chronic fatigue, or depression or whatever that tanks energy levels or includes executive dysfunction.

I often forget to put things back in their proper place.
-This is a symptom of learning disability. For example ADHD. Like what does having poor memory to do with desire to do a task well and taking obligations seriously?

I shirk my duties.
-Like this one is basically the only one which could vaguely qualify as intent.

Most of these measure executive functioning/reliability/whatever ability not conscientiousness.

TJ performance is performance of someone that is energised by using Extroverted Thinking and Introverted Perception. The obvious result is ability to use Te and Pi for extended periods of time.

Obvious problem is lack of objective criteria of measurement. For example. Let's assign an ESTJ a duty that requires competently using Fi and Ne for extended periods of time and you'll see them overwhelmed and energy levels tanking and being unable to keep up with the duty. They may also get disgruntled and start shirking the duty altogether while muttering under their nose about "emotional labour" XD . Then their conscientiousness score will tank despite that they'd do fine if they had ben assigned a duty that requires them to use Te and Si instead of Fi and Ne.

Character traits and abilities are separate. For example I'm still most motivated by wanting to do stuff according to a plan. The problem is that I can't effectively plan long-term due to chronic health problems and learning disabilities. And it got worse, like 5 years ago because I can't even physically attend school or day job due to lower back injury forcing me to lie down every couple hours to not get worse again. So, currently my motivation to do anything is near the bottom. Now I'm never as motivated as I would be when starting a new semester back in high school and later schools and wanting to do everything right.

Funny thing is that processing/gathering information for this post and writing it took me, like, 6 hours.

Ok, i get back slightly a bit, but let me explain.

As you say and I agree, characters traits and abilities are separate even though they are not completely separated (but mostly are separated and are at conceptual level). They are somewhat separate and I normally treat them as separate until an ability test proves otherwise (and there is no "TJ performance ability test" for that so far).

The separation does means that an ESTJ might not even be good at "using Te" or whatever actual skills you understand as Te. It depends on their ability as well. A common trend on MBTI is that Thinking doesn't relate much to critical thinking, so a good bunch of ESTJs are not actual good at critical thinking skills, while INFPs can be good at it even when you present them as being Fi-doms. And, regardless of that, this does NOT "tank" the ESTJs thinking on MBTI. So, again, there is not really a "TJ performance".

By the way you argue, it is as if every question heavily relies on skill and not preference, not just conscientiousness, but that is not statistically true (INTP and intelligence is the closest to that but the full correlation for a single MBTI test and I+N+T+P combined should barely reach 0.50). Big Five still relies more on your preference than skill for people in general.

The problem is that I can't effectively plan long-term due to chronic health problems and learning disabilities. And it got worse, like 5 years ago because I can't even physically attend school or day job due to lower back injury forcing me to lie down every couple hours to not get worse again. So, currently my motivation to do anything is near the bottom. Now I'm never as motivated as I would be when starting a new semester back in high school and later schools and wanting to do everything right.

Ok, you reach to a more extreme point where they are not truly separated.

But doing a completely separated test from abilities is actually impossible - MBTI tried that and statistically failed, INTP is the smartest type regardless and they need to do horrible distortions of what intelligence means to say otherwise. So, for you to go out and being an extravert, it implies you can hear and talk properly and that you are not so sick so you can get out of your bed and go socializing. A person who is too sick might have the preference without ever being able to do that - I understand that is probably your point although that is substantially rare. Motivation works to a similar degree, and other factors are subjected to that as well. But for more normal cases - which sadly isn't yours - people don't get these problems often to the point where personality is heavily affected by that. There is no test that can get things the way you want to - eliminating the abilities 100% and all completely and to supplement your own personality regardless of your own deep problems that you never asked for; To overcome that you may need to work with descriptions and hypothetical scenarios instead. But in no way this makes the big five "evil" and a test of abilities instead of a personality test - neither this solves the incompatibilities between ENFP and type 1 I've pointed out.

Funny thing is that processing/gathering information for this post and writing it took me, like, 6 hours.

=(