Sins and misconduct of organized religion

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

 

[Lark]

Has a bit of a feel of same of same old to be honest.

I dont know how much there would be of this if it wasnt paying, so maybe its not religion but consumerism that's at fault.

Its like a lot of things, if people think all they need to do is flash the cash they'll do that, its why there's such money paid out to gyms and PTs and we dont live in a society where everyone looks like Mr Universe.

 

[Kephalos]

[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION], "same old same old" has to stop. Like, yesterday.

Catholic Church clergy sex abuse: Read the full grand jury report

Pennsylvania Attorney General - Grand Jury Report

Controversies surrounding the Legion of Christ - Wikipedia

AP: Catholic Church lobbied for taxpayer funds, got $1.4B

The McCarrick report | National Catholic Reporter

 

[JocktheMotie]

To be honest I think [MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION]'s right in a sense. Christianity is one of the oldest cultural structures in the world and they're going to have a laundry list of baggage. Religions in general share that. Show me any state or bureaucracy or organizational structure that has NOT committed some atrocity if it's lasted for 100 years. It's practically a prerequisite.

 

[Coriolis]

To be honest I think [MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION]'s right in a sense. Christianity is one of the oldest cultural structures in the world and they're going to have a laundry list of baggage. Religions in general share that. Show me any state or bureaucracy or organizational structure that has NOT committed some atrocity if it's lasted for 100 years. It's practically a prerequisite.

It is understandable that there is baggage. It is unforgivable if they at least don't acknowledge it and keep working to make amends and do better.

 

[JocktheMotie]

It is understandable that there is baggage. It is unforgivable if they at least don't acknowledge it and keep working to make amends and do better.

Yeah.

I guess I don't know what the novelty or intrigue is in interrogating the "sins and misconduct of organized religion" is and I certainly don't have 45 minutes to waste on what I figured out when I was 15. If there's anything particularly interesting the OP should pick out a highlight or a timestamp to get us discussing.

 

[Totenkindly]

Russell Moore’s Exit From the Southern Baptist Convention - The Atlantic

Moore’s letter was leaked to Religion News Service (RNS) a few weeks after he resigned from the ERLC. And on June 1, Immanuel Nashville, a church not affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, announced that Moore would become its pastor in residence. Which means that one of the most important figures in the SBC has completely broken with the denomination he has been a part of for virtually his entire life.

Moore’s 4,000-word letter explains why.

His departure was not primarily prompted, as many people had assumed, by his role as an outspoken critic of Donald Trump, although that had clearly upset powerful members within the politically and theologically conservative denomination. Instead, the letter suggests, the breach was caused by the stands he had taken against sexual abuse within the SBC and on racial reconciliation, which had infuriated the executive committee. The chair of the executive committee at the time, Mike Stone, is now running for SBC president. According to RNS, “Supporters have touted Moore’s resignation as proof of Stone’s effectiveness as a leader.” (Stone released a statement in response to Moore’s letter, alleging that it contained “numerous misrepresentations,” and calling it an attempt to influence the coming denominational election.)

“The presenting issue here is that, first and foremost, of sexual abuse,” Moore wrote. “This Executive Committee, through their bylaws workgroup, ‘exonerated’ churches, in a spur-of-the-moment meeting, from serious charges of sexual abuse cover-up...”

...But confronting sexual abuse wasn’t the only issue dividing Moore from the SBC executive committee. “The other absolutely draining and unrelenting issue has been that of racial reconciliation,” Moore wrote. “My family and I have faced constant threats from white nationalists and white supremacists, including within our convention. Some of them have been involved in neo-Confederate activities going back for years. Some are involved with groups funded by white nationalist nativist organizations. Some of them have just expressed raw racist sentiment, behind closed doors.”

Moore cited specific examples: “One SBC leader who was at the forefront of these behind-closed-doors assaults had already ripped me to shreds verbally for saying, in 2011, that the Southern Baptist Convention should elect an African-American president,” he wrote. “This same leader told a gathering that ‘The Conservative Resurgence is like the Civil War, except this time unlike the last one, the right side won.’ I walked out of that gathering, as did one of you.”

Moore also mentioned an SBC leader who, during a discussion about Black victims of police violence, had asserted that “only those with guns would prevent black people from burning down all of our cities...”

Hillsong Pastor Accuses Carl Lentz Of Sex Abuse Scandal

Hillsong Church boasts many celebrity attendees, churches in 30 countries, and an average global attendance of 150,000 people a week. But controversy and allegations of sexual abuse, homophobia, and toxic leadership have followed the megachurch since it was founded in 1983. Now, Leona Kimes, a pastor at Hillsong Boston, is coming forward about the abuse, bullying, and exploitation she faced while working for a Hillsong New York pastor. Although she did not mention disgraced Hillsong New York figurehead Carl Lentz by name, Religion News Service confirmed that he was Kimes' employer and pastor at the time.
In a May 31 statement published on Medium, Kimes wrote that she and her husband, Josh, moved to the U.S. from Sydney, Australia to help build the Australia-based megachurch's New York chapter in 2011. Today, Kimes and Josh are both pastors for Hillsong Boston, but at the time, only Josh worked as a pastor. Kimes, meanwhile, was tasked with working as a nanny, housekeeper, and personal assistant for Hillsong New York's co-founder, 42-year-old Lentz, and his wife, Laura. She says that while working in that capacity, Lentz subjected her to seven years of bullying, manipulation, and sexual abuse, and she felt powerless to speak up as Hillsong New York grew bigger and bigger...

Well, Lark's issue is that he's always feeling the need to defend the Catholic church, even when it's not even really the topic.

Mark Driscoll (featured in the video above) isn't from the Catholic church. The two articles I read this morning, incidentally, aren't about the Catholic church either. So why do Catholics keep getting dragged into the discussion? (Oh, gee, the sexual abuse scandals. Weird,huh?)

But in any case, the SBC is not nearly as old, and Hillsong and the like are much younger. But same old stuff -- abuse of power, racism, and sexual abuse / sexist behavior. Even the "young" denominations seem to exhibit the same sort of problems as their Catholic older sibling.

At best, one can say that church walls provide a safe haven and a ready-built power structure for those who would support these things; at worst, one could try to argue that there are particular tenets that contribute to a propensity of these thoughts and behaviors.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

 

[Lark]

[MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION], "same old same old" has to stop. Like, yesterday.

Catholic Church clergy sex abuse: Read the full grand jury report

Pennsylvania Attorney General - Grand Jury Report

Controversies surrounding the Legion of Christ - Wikipedia

AP: Catholic Church lobbied for taxpayer funds, got $1.4B

The McCarrick report | National Catholic Reporter

I see the same criticisms of religion all the time, nothing new here, we live in a really secular society and the focus remains the same as though the world has not actually moved on.

In a certain sense I could play the game of questioning whether you would know the "sins and misconduct" of religion, if you did not have religion in the first place to supply you with an understanding of what "sins and misconduct" where but that could be a bit too meta.

I mean why make any sort of a point when you can post a string of news stories about abuse and misconduct?

As though it where religion that caused it and not a bunch of people choosing to be human, all too human.

 

[Lark]

It is understandable that there is baggage. It is unforgivable if they at least don't acknowledge it and keep working to make amends and do better.

You dont feel that has happened?

I mean you might feel that way but...

 

[Lark]

Yeah.

I guess I don't know what the novelty or intrigue is in interrogating the "sins and misconduct of organized religion" is and I certainly don't have 45 minutes to waste on what I figured out when I was 15. If there's anything particularly interesting the OP should pick out a highlight or a timestamp to get us discussing.

Its a general attack on religion, usually religion at its worst rather than religion at its best, as usual.

Though, its got to the point that I dont even suspect this is "liberalism as usual" when it happens, instead I figure its some alt right troll who thinks they are being clever or acting as some agent provocateur or something, summon the bogeys for the liberals, let the outrage for a bit, then whoever feels upset by that they can try and co-opt to their outfit or cause.

And THAT is same old, same old too kiddies.

 

[Lark]

Russell Moore’s Exit From the Southern Baptist Convention - The Atlantic





Hillsong Pastor Accuses Carl Lentz Of Sex Abuse Scandal




Well, Lark's issue is that he's always feeling the need to defend the Catholic church, even when it's not even really the topic.

Mark Driscoll (featured in the video above) isn't from the Catholic church. The two articles I read this morning, incidentally, aren't about the Catholic church either. So why do Catholics keep getting dragged into the discussion? (Oh, gee, the sexual abuse scandals. Weird,huh?)

But in any case, the SBC is not nearly as old, and Hillsong and the like are much younger. But same old stuff -- abuse of power, racism, and sexual abuse / sexist behavior. Even the "young" denominations seem to exhibit the same sort of problems as their Catholic older sibling.

At best, one can say that church walls provide a safe haven and a ready-built power structure for those who would support these things; at worst, one could try to argue that there are particular tenets that contribute to a propensity of these thoughts and behaviors.

I'm sorry about whoever or whatever hurt you that has you posting stuff like that.

If you look back over what I wrote you'll see I was highlighting how tedious the whole "religion = bad" is. As it is.

Its you that mentioned the RCC, and linked it with sexual abuse too, if you've given long enough will you wheel out something about Jews drinking the blood of Christian children too?

Pathetic.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

To be honest I think [MENTION=7280]Lark[/MENTION]'s right in a sense. Christianity is one of the oldest cultural structures in the world and they're going to have a laundry list of baggage. Religions in general share that. Show me any state or bureaucracy or organizational structure that has NOT committed some atrocity if it's lasted for 100 years. It's practically a prerequisite.

I'm going to agree. Isn't it all just routine, everyday human arrogance? There are lots of different institutions and bureaucracies struggling and trying to get their abuses under control. The church is just one among many.

Examples:

--Hollywood has been viciously liberal for half a century or more. But the cases of Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, et al. shows that the casting couch and abuse of groupies remains a problem up to the present.

--Institutions like the military, sports organizations, fraternities, etc. still continue to have problems with hazing, sometimes with deadly consequences.

--Tech companies turn a blind eye to the abuses of their corporate heads. CEOs are narcissists and sociopaths. Latest example: Rumors of sex scandals are increasingly swirling around Bill Gates as a consequence of his split with his wife.

--Not to mention politicians with all their various scandals...

IOW, arrogance and abuse tends to be the norm in big bureaucracies and institutions, and it's accepted as the cost of doing business, until one day a tipping point is hit, there's a backlash, a scandal, and suddenly those same bureaucracies and institutions have to scramble to clean up their acts.

As an atheist, I can laugh at the petty hypocrisy of church elders professing to be upholding everything holy and sacred, even as their priests sneak around buggering children behind the altar. Honestly, I think it's funny as hell.

But in the end, church people are still human; other than maybe the Pope, they never professed to be perfect. So the churches are just getting caught in the same bind as everyone else: For a long time, a certain level of abuse was okay, the cost of doing business. And then, suddenly one day it wasn't okay. And so now everyone is running around doing damage control. C'est la vie. It's not just the churches; it's pretty much everyone these days. It's just the times. We're all being held to a higher standard than in the past. (it's kind of fun, actually. Lots of dirty laundry and schadenfreude in the headlines from one day to the next.)

 

[Kephalos]

I don't know what's worse, the crimes we're talking about (because they are crimes, let's not mince words), or the apathy in the face of them.

It's just incomprehensible to me how anyone can adopt such a view of this.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

I don't know what's worse, the crimes we're talking about (because they are crimes, let's not mince words), or the apathy in the face of them.

It's just incomprehensible to me how anyone can adopt such a view of this.

It's that or hate humanity. Because that's what's at the base of it: Humanity, with all its failings.

 

[highlander]

My biggest issue is they elected Trump. Something is seriously wrong with that. No, it isn't ok to vote for such a terrible person and call youself a Christian. He is the closest thing to the antichrist that I have seen in my lifetime. Complete absolute hypocrites.

 

[ceecee]

My biggest issue is they elected Trump. Something is seriously wrong with that. No, it isn't ok to vote for such a terrible person and call youself a Christian. He is the closest thing to the antichrist that I have seen in my lifetime. Complete absolute hypocrites.

But he was fighting for them and their view, that's why they voted for him. Generally they are single issue voters: total abortion abolition. To accomplish that, they needed insane authoritarian judges, including SCOTUS. Mission accomplished. But it is NOT just Trump. It is the GOP from the most local offices all the way to federal leadership. Trump could not have done any of this without their bootlicking support and cooperation. The GOP is a Christian fascist party with a business wing.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm going to agree. Isn't it all just routine, everyday human arrogance? There are lots of different institutions and bureaucracies struggling and trying to get their abuses under control. The church is just one among many.

Yeah, I can't really disagree about that aspect either. I think the church (religious orgs, esp with power structures involved) is just one of the institutions that more overtly pretends to be more than it is and/or denies its own vices regularly, it's kind of baked into its world perspective. I think most of the other organizations are a bit more realistic or even cynical ("hey, it's just the cost of doing business"), while the church naturally claims to be an angel of light. That is why it scans are more bothersome; it pretends to be more, so its shortcomings seem more heinous. Sausage making is a messy business, though.

But he was fighting for them and their view, that's why they voted for him. Generally they are single issue voters: total abortion abolition. To accomplish that, they needed insane authoritarian judges, including SCOTUS. Mission accomplished.

That. They got what they wanted. It was "ends justifies means / greater good" logic.

The hypocrisy is just that typically they scream from the rooftop that they are something far more than "ends justifies means" people and lay claim to deeper spirituality. Go to church services or small groups and hear them extol personal honesty and "heart like God" and some kind of self-purity, but it's just all lip service when the rubber meets the road. It all is traded in for social/political results.

 

[Coriolis]

I'm sorry about whoever or whatever hurt you that has you posting stuff like that.

If you look back over what I wrote you'll see I was highlighting how tedious the whole "religion = bad" is. As it is.

Its you that mentioned the RCC, and linked it with sexual abuse too, if you've given long enough will you wheel out something about Jews drinking the blood of Christian children too?

The last sounds like Nazi or other anti-Semitic propaganda. The rest is documented reality, up to the present day. It is legitimate to consider the "sins" of religion, understanding that the RCC is just one example. We can also contrast that with the good religion does, though the OP specifically focused on the negatives, much as a court case focuses on the murder the suspect is accused of, and not the fact that he supports his sick mother, or put his nephew through college.

 

[The Cat]