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What's with Social Justice Warriors?

EcK

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Is it patronizing or subjugation to expect someone to call you by your actual name, or by the form of it you prefer (e.g. Daniel instead of Dan)? Pronouns are no different. What you are espousing would allow others to decide for you how you should be referred to and addressed. I have heard many interpretations of liberalism, but none has encompassed that.

You are welcome to your convoluted theories and personal perspective. All we can insist upon is that your interactions here abide by forum rules - and we will. That includes referring to people by their preferred names and pronouns, whether you like it or not.

I'm not sure you can compare pronouns to names. They are not the same thing and therefore it doesn't seem to make sense that they would abide by the same linguistic rules.
As to names also, I guess it depends on context, people are willing to accept pseudonyms but we all know they are not your ACTUAL name and nobody pretends that they are, they are just a substitute.
However is someone is called Daniel, the shorthand for their name is normally related to their name. So Daniel will be called Dan not Archibald (unless Archibald is a nickname).

But that is quite different from say Daniel wanting to be named Clarissa or John, that doesn't really match the usual rules for either a nickname (people accept that you use either of these usually, nobody would say that you calling me by my first name - if you know it - is deadnaming) or a different form of one's name.

Regarding pronouns, I don't think they've ever been considered a personal choice in the past, people naturally assign gender based on what is apparent to them. Having to check somebody's gender even if it seems apparent based on one's apparent sex for all people seems to needlessly complexity communication & render it less effective - for example if you want to point someone out in a crowd - if gender is personal then saying 'her' or 'him' to indicate a stranger in a crowd would be meaningless.

Anyway, my point is that yeah sure you can call someone who appears to be a he a she if they ask - but I don't really see any basis for REQUIRING it of anybody, especially not in a codified fashion through forum rules etc. That's going a few steps too far into 1984 territory in trying to impose your worldview onto other people despite very weak foundations to justify it.
 

Lark

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I'm not sure you can compare pronouns to names. They are not the same thing and therefore it doesn't seem to make sense that they would abide by the same linguistic rules.
As to names also, I guess it depends on context, people are willing to accept pseudonyms but we all know they are not your ACTUAL name and nobody pretends that they are, they are just a substitute.
However is someone is called Daniel, the shorthand for their name is normally related to their name. So Daniel will be called Dan not Archibald (unless Archibald is a nickname).

But that is quite different from say Daniel wanting to be named Clarissa or John, that doesn't really match the usual rules for either a nickname (people accept that you use either of these usually, nobody would say that you calling me by my first name - if you know it - is deadnaming) or a different form of one's name.

Regarding pronouns, I don't think they've ever been considered a personal choice in the past, people naturally assign gender based on what is apparent to them. Having to check somebody's gender even if it seems apparent based on one's apparent sex for all people seems to needlessly complexity communication & render it less effective - for example if you want to point someone out in a crowd - if gender is personal then saying 'her' or 'him' to indicate a stranger in a crowd would be meaningless.

Anyway, my point is that yeah sure you can call someone who appears to be a he a she if they ask - but I don't really see any basis for REQUIRING it of anybody, especially not in a codified fashion through forum rules etc. That's going a few steps too far into 1984 territory in trying to impose your worldview onto other people despite very weak foundations to justify it.

If there was no money in it would this even be a thing?
 

Tellenbach

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Libertarian here. People in a free society should be allowed to use any pronoun they feel comfortable using. I don't give a shit what your pronoun preference is. The problem is with the people who demand that others bend to their will because once again....this is a manifestation of a spoiled, entitled person. The world doesn't owe you a thing.
 

Coriolis

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I'm not sure you can compare pronouns to names. They are not the same thing and therefore it doesn't seem to make sense that they would abide by the same linguistic rules.
As to names also, I guess it depends on context, people are willing to accept pseudonyms but we all know they are not your ACTUAL name and nobody pretends that they are, they are just a substitute.
However is someone is called Daniel, the shorthand for their name is normally related to their name. So Daniel will be called Dan not Archibald (unless Archibald is a nickname).

But that is quite different from say Daniel wanting to be named Clarissa or John, that doesn't really match the usual rules for either a nickname (people accept that you use either of these usually, nobody would say that you calling me by my first name - if you know it - is deadnaming) or a different form of one's name.

Regarding pronouns, I don't think they've ever been considered a personal choice in the past, people naturally assign gender based on what is apparent to them. Having to check somebody's gender even if it seems apparent based on one's apparent sex for all people seems to needlessly complexity communication & render it less effective - for example if you want to point someone out in a crowd - if gender is personal then saying 'her' or 'him' to indicate a stranger in a crowd would be meaningless.

Anyway, my point is that yeah sure you can call someone who appears to be a he a she if they ask - but I don't really see any basis for REQUIRING it of anybody, especially not in a codified fashion through forum rules etc. That's going a few steps too far into 1984 territory in trying to impose your worldview onto other people despite very weak foundations to justify it.
I am. They are words used to refer to people, just like names or even titles. Often we can assume the reality of something based on its outward appearance, but that is not always the case. When we assume wrong are unwilling to stand corrected, that is not only rude (in the case of fellow humans) but denies reality. To the extent that forum rules (or workplace rules, or school rules) require people treat each other with respect, this includes how we refer to each other.

If there was no money in it would this even be a thing?
I fail to see the financial connection in asking others to refer to me by the pronouns that match my actual gender. We mods certainly don't get any money for enforcing forum rules.
 

EcK

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I am. They are words used to refer to people, just like names or even titles. Often we can assume the reality of something based on its outward appearance, but that is not always the case. When we assume wrong are unwilling to stand corrected, that is not only rude (in the case of fellow humans) but denies reality. To the extent that forum rules (or workplace rules, or school rules) require people treat each other with respect, this includes how we refer to each other.
.

Sorry but that makes no sense, or more accurately there are holes the size of a large moon in your argument.
Human is a term we use to refer to people. Does that mean that term is also a personal choice? You seem to be confusing ideology with linguistics here.
And titles are actually not a matter of personal choice, people wouldn't accept to call someone 'mr president' or 'doctor' just because it is requested without the people in question having acquired these titles in a way deemed legitimate enough.

You are conflating different concepts into one through an extremely low-resolution understanding when even the more cursory inspection shows them to be markedly different.
 

Lark

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I fail to see the financial connection in asking others to refer to me by the pronouns that match my actual gender. We mods certainly don't get any money for enforcing forum rules.

You dont? That is uncharacteristic of you Coriolis, you usually pay such good attention.
 

prplchknz

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thanks thread for letting me know who are selfish can't be bothered to respect people because some boogey man that isn't even real, and those who respect others because it's not that fucking hard to use correct pronouns and realize their isn't some imaginary battle over it and does not effect them. what.so.ever. jesus christ people. and black people don't have lower iqs than white people. if you are someone who thinks that don't bother responding because you believe in eugenics go back to 1930s germany
 

The Cat

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thanks thread for letting me know who are selfish can't be bothered to respect people because some boogey man that isn't even real, and those who respect others because it's not that fucking hard to use correct pronouns and realize their isn't some imaginary battle over it and does not effect them. what.so.ever. jesus christ people. and black people don't have lower iqs than white people. if you are someone who thinks that don't bother responding because you believe in eugenics go back to 1930s germany

:cheers:
 

Coriolis

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Sorry but that makes no sense, or more accurately there are holes the size of a large moon in your argument.
Human is a term we use to refer to people. Does that mean that term is also a personal choice? You seem to be confusing ideology with linguistics here.
And titles are actually not a matter of personal choice, people wouldn't accept to call someone 'mr president' or 'doctor' just because it is requested without the people in question having acquired these titles in a way deemed legitimate enough.

You are conflating different concepts into one through an extremely low-resolution understanding when even the more cursory inspection shows them to be markedly different.
The preference in all cases is to be referred to by terms that are accurate and applicable regardless of the speaker's personal feelings on the subject. A young university faculty member who dresses informally and might be mistaken for a student is just as entitled to be called "professor" as her more seasoned and conventional-looking colleague.

You dont? That is uncharacteristic of you Coriolis, you usually pay such good attention.
It is hard to pay attention to something that isn't there. If you have something to point out, please do so and dispense with the backhanded disparagement.
 

Luminous

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It's this. It's not well, I'm not going to call him a doctor because he doesn't have a doctorate. It's not but they're infringing on my rights by asking to be referred to in a way that is coherent with who they are.

Why is it hard?

I get that it can be hard to change the way you refer to someone; that happens to me, but I try to refer to people the way they'd prefer to be referred to. I get that it can take a little adjustment and you might slip here and there, but that's different from saying it's wrong.

Why is it wrong? What is wrong with someone asking you to call them what they are, inside? Why can't you see it's basic human respect to honor that? Why is it threatening to you?

There are lots of people on the forum who have names that are surely NOT their actual names, and yet, we refer to them by those names. I don't think Lark is actually a bird. Nor is The Cat an actual cat (that one is shocking, I know). Earl Grey isn't tea. Lord Lavender is neither an actual lord nor lavender. Similarly prplchknz isn't purple OR a chicken. SD45T-2 isn't a locomotive. And I don't actually glow in the dark. And most of us use avatars that are not photographs of ourselves. But we refer to each other by these names and images. Why should this be any different?

Even if you don't agree that it's correct in a hair splitting way or right for them to feel the way they do, why can't you respect their basic humanity gracefully by acknowledging they are their own people, who should be free to determine their own paths?
 

yeghor

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Why is it wrong? What is wrong with someone asking you to call them what they are, inside? Why can't you see it's basic human respect to honor that? Why is it threatening to you? [/QUOTE]

The thread is about SJWs though it has been derailed into non-binary pronouns by SJWs.

[B]Ask and Demand[/B]

"[I]These words can be used in similar situations. The difference between them is in the force of the words.

When you think you would like something, you may "ask" for it. But if you think you have a right to something, you are more likely to "demand" it.[/I]"

Asking to be called a certain pronoun is OK. (Request)

Demanding to be called a certain pronoun is WRONG. (Ultimatum)
 

Totenkindly

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The thread is about SJWs though it has been derailed into non-binary pronouns by SJWs.

Ask and Demand

"These words can be used in similar situations. The difference between them is in the force of the words.

When you think you would like something, you may "ask" for it. But if you think you have a right to something, you are more likely to "demand" it.
"

Asking to be called a certain pronoun is OK. (Request)

Demanding to be called a certain pronoun is WRONG. (Ultimatum)

Wrong, by what standard? Your "everyone is an isolated individual" standard? You want to be part of a community and benefit from that connection (by posting a lot of your thoughts here and hoping people respond to them), but you don't want to play by the rules that are the cost of being part of a community.

Maybe I think I'll just refer to you as Peewee instead of Yeghor from now on. That shouldn't be a problem, right? After all, you can only request I call you Yeghor, and expecting me to refer to you that way is wrong on your part, not on mine. If you are bothered by any of the names I come up with for you, then that is something you need to work through.

That's how ridiculous this conversation has become. Trying to slough it by just labeling everyone who disagrees with you as a SJW is just another logical fallacy. It's really about you wanting to be a member of a community on your own terms (all the reward, none of the cost), without taking into account what a community is.
 

yeghor

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Wrong, by what standard? Your "everyone is an isolated individual" standard? You want to be part of a community and benefit from that connection (by posting a lot of your thoughts here and hoping people respond to them), but you don't want to play by the rules that are the cost of being part of a community.

Maybe I think I'll just refer to you as Peewee instead of Yeghor from now on. That shouldn't be a problem, right? After all, you can only request I call you Yeghor, and expecting me to refer to you that way is wrong on your part, not on mine. If you are bothered by any of the names I come up with for you, then that is something you need to work through.

That's how ridiculous this conversation has become. Trying to slough it by just labeling everyone who disagrees with you as a SJW is just another logical fallacy. It's really about you wanting to be a member of a community on your own terms (all the reward, none of the cost), without taking into account what a community is.

We are running around in circles here.

Wrong by linguistic norms that have evolved naturally over the course of time, into two gender pronouns. We use the same linguistic norms and social consensus to define and communicate our perception of reality. We do not contest it, just as we accept the username rules of the forum when we join. In your forum example, it would be more like me "demanding" you and all other members to call me Peewee instead of Yeghor, even though my username states Yeghor, because I feel more like a Peewee than a Yeghor or a third name cause I feel like neither.

When you ask people to refer to you by a pronoun that defies their perceived reality or naturally evolved linguistic norms, based on your interal preference or perception of self, it is up to them to honor that request or not, by overriding or suspending their perception.

When you "demand them" to do that, you are basically trying to override their framework of how they perceive and communicate reality. It is a form of dictating your perception of reality and alternative social norms onto others, and is thereby wrong.

When the non-binary and gender fluid people become a defining majority, linguistics will "naturally" evolve over time to accommodate a third pronoun for them and it will be thru social consensus rather then social or legislative pressure, because by then most families will have such a member in their midst. However, currently they constitute 1 to 2 % of population, and seem to be demanding the remaining 98% to artificially shift their linguistic and cognitive framework to accommodate theirs.

Anyone who fails to see that is an SJW in my book.

If that is what is required to be a part of this community, that means this community has become an alt-left niche community.
 

prplchknz

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It's this. It's not well, I'm not going to call him a doctor because he doesn't have a doctorate. It's not but they're infringing on my rights by asking to be referred to in a way that is coherent with who they are.

Why is it hard?

I get that it can be hard to change the way you refer to someone; that happens to me, but I try to refer to people the way they'd prefer to be referred to. I get that it can take a little adjustment and you might slip here and there, but that's different from saying it's wrong.

Why is it wrong? What is wrong with someone asking you to call them what they are, inside? Why can't you see it's basic human respect to honor that? Why is it threatening to you?

There are lots of people on the forum who have names that are surely NOT their actual names, and yet, we refer to them by those names. I don't think Lark is actually a bird. Nor is The Cat an actual cat (that one is shocking, I know). Earl Grey isn't tea. Lord Lavender is neither an actual lord nor lavender. Similarly prplchknz isn't purple OR a chicken. SD45T-2 isn't a locomotive. And I don't actually glow in the dark. And most of us use avatars that are not photographs of ourselves. But we refer to each other by these names and images. Why should this be any different?

Even if you don't agree that it's correct in a hair splitting way or right for them to feel the way they do, why can't you respect their basic humanity gracefully by acknowledging they are their own people, who should be free to determine their own paths?

how do you know i'm not a chicken? :huh:

also why do conversatives care so much about what pronouns someone uses and what's in the person's pants? seems kind of perverted to me personally. but what do i know I'm an SJW(actually i'm not i just have respect for others and don't give a fuck about whats in someone's pants, unless its a kitten, then please remove and let me pet)
 

ceecee

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We are running around in circles here.

Wrong by linguistic norms that have evolved naturally over the course of time, into two gender pronouns. We use the same linguistic norms and social consensus to define and communicate our perception of reality. We do not contest it, just as we accept the username rules of the forum when we join. In your forum example, it would be more like me "demanding" you and all other members to call me Peewee instead of Yeghor, even though my username states Yeghor, because I feel more like a Peewee than a Yeghor or a third name cause I feel like neither.

When you ask people to refer to you by a pronoun that defies their perceived reality or naturally evolved linguistic norms, based on your interal preference or perception of self, it is up to them to honor that request or not, by overriding or suspending their perception.

When you "demand them" to do that, you are basically trying to override their framework of how they perceive and communicate reality. It is a form of dictating your perception of reality and alternative social norms onto others, and is thereby wrong.

When the non-binary and gender fluid people become a defining majority, linguistics will "naturally" evolve over time to accommodate a third pronoun for them and it will be thru social consensus rather then social or legislative pressure, because by then most families will have such a member in their midst. However, currently they constitute 1 to 2 % of population, and seem to be demanding the remaining 98% to artificially shift their linguistic and cognitive framework to accommodate theirs.

Anyone who fails to see that is an SJW in my book.

If that is what is required to be a part of this community, that means this community has become an alt-left niche community.

lol
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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This community seems to be your typical neoliberal group with a few outspoken right wingers and marxists on the fringes
 

Earl Grey

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When the non-binary and gender fluid people become a defining majority, linguistics will "naturally" evolve over time to accommodate a third pronoun for them and it will be thru social consensus rather then social or legislative pressure, because by then most families will have such a member in their midst. However, currently they constitute 1 to 2 % of population, and seem to be demanding the remaining 98% to artificially shift their linguistic and cognitive framework to accommodate theirs.

Anyone who fails to see that is an SJW in my book.

Are you somehow of the belief that the only people who can dictate anything at all are people who are in the majority? Slavery was still a horrible thing before it was voted out. The majority means little here on how 'proper' something is or how things 'should' be. Just because everyone says it's right, doesn't mean it necessarily is, and you've had the luxury and patience of being explained to otherwise. All of which you have so far wasted.

Not to mention, linguistics will not evolve if the people who use them are dead-set on it, or if they have to wait to be changed due to the stubborn 'majority' not lending it credence here. You want it to 'naturally' change but your kind of stubbornness is part of what prevents that very change from taking place. You're asking for the impossible, and you're asking to be left in the past with this kind of attitude. You want to hide behind the great big wall of people who will agree that you're right instead of listening to the people telling you why exactly this is important.

"The defining majority." - seriously? Is your excuse that measly?


When you "demand them" to do that, you are basically trying to override their framework of how they perceive and communicate reality. It is a form of dictating your perception of reality and alternative social norms onto others, and is thereby wrong.

A lot of people do things they don't like because it's more polite, or whatever it is. Confining your reality to only the limits of what you can experience is extremely narrow-minded and backwards. Confining your behaviours to what you think is most acceptable based of consensus of only the majority is extremely intellectually sloppy, not at all critical (you seem to ironically be a fan of 'critical thinking', whatever your idea of that is), and is on the slippery slide on the way to being bigoted. Besides, a lot of people have their 'framework' overridden (updated, rather) in many ways- intellectual pursuits and some spiritual paths require you to take on, learn, or adapt to new ideologies. If you are wrong, you just are, and that old framework would be worth updating.

And it's not even about dictating perceptions of reality. You can keep thinking what you want inside, but you must respect a person's basic right to be received for who they are and at the barest of minimums not trash that even if you disagree. Every person dictates their own reality in the sense that they are the best judge of who they are and what they want, a concept you do not seem to respect.

If you are dead-set on not treating people who fall outside your comfort zone the way they prefer due to your capricious pickiness, yeah, you're better off in the mountains (or whatever dystopia you are in that ignores any voice that isn't the majority) than in society. A lot of people have taken the time out of their day to explain this to you from multiple angles. Are you sure your argument of 'it's not the majority'- or whatever else it is- isn't just some measly way to hide your own bigoted, lazy ways? You don't want to change. It discomforts you. It's all about you. Do you even think about how much it discomforts the other person either? No real discussion. No middle ground. Just stubbornly digging your heels into your preferences. Calling out people's absolutely reasonable discomfort as entitlement in a bad way. Yes, you know what? They are entitled to basic respect, basic respect that for whatever reason you are ignoring for... Slavishly following the 'defining majority'? Your attitude is what is falling outside of that basic respect, not theirs.

You don't even seem to truly be working based off the rule of majority. If you were, you'd have listened to us as blindly as you listen to the majority of wherever you are. This is a tell that you really are listening to them because they happen to be more convenient to your worldview and thus are a convenient excuse for maintaining them, instead of admitting to any one of us here who has called you out that you can't actually take advice.

Some of the problem with 'SJWs' of the annoying flavour that everyone is complaining about are their extremism and incredible noise, unwillingness to look at the facts, instead being reactionary and vocal in their discomfort at the expense of others, and insisting on their own interpretation of reality with little hope for real dialogue. You may not be standing in the same camp they are but you're doing very similar things. The absolute irony.
 

Coriolis

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The thread is about SJWs though it has been derailed into non-binary pronouns by SJWs.

Ask and Demand

"These words can be used in similar situations. The difference between them is in the force of the words.

When you think you would like something, you may "ask" for it. But if you think you have a right to something, you are more likely to "demand" it.
"

Asking to be called a certain pronoun is OK. (Request)

Demanding to be called a certain pronoun is WRONG. (Ultimatum)
So you are willing to do the right thing or simply to abide by the norms of a group (like this forum) only if it is presented to you in a way that you find palatable? That's not how things work, here or elsewhere. People don't need to give you an ultimatum, they can just stop interacting with you if you insist on being rude or narrow-minded.

We are running around in circles here.

Wrong by linguistic norms that have evolved naturally over the course of time, into two gender pronouns. We use the same linguistic norms and social consensus to define and communicate our perception of reality. We do not contest it, just as we accept the username rules of the forum when we join. In your forum example, it would be more like me "demanding" you and all other members to call me Peewee instead of Yeghor, even though my username states Yeghor, because I feel more like a Peewee than a Yeghor or a third name cause I feel like neither.

When you ask people to refer to you by a pronoun that defies their perceived reality or naturally evolved linguistic norms, based on your interal preference or perception of self, it is up to them to honor that request or not, by overriding or suspending their perception.

When you "demand them" to do that, you are basically trying to override their framework of how they perceive and communicate reality. It is a form of dictating your perception of reality and alternative social norms onto others, and is thereby wrong.

When the non-binary and gender fluid people become a defining majority, linguistics will "naturally" evolve over time to accommodate a third pronoun for them and it will be thru social consensus rather then social or legislative pressure, because by then most families will have such a member in their midst. However, currently they constitute 1 to 2 % of population, and seem to be demanding the remaining 98% to artificially shift their linguistic and cognitive framework to accommodate theirs.

Anyone who fails to see that is an SJW in my book.

If that is what is required to be a part of this community, that means this community has become an alt-left niche community.
You are constructing some pretty large strawmen here - straw giants, one could say. I am not going to bother to repeat what several of us have already explained to you at great length. You are obviously recalcitrant and possibly also willfully ignorant. My responses in such cases are really aimed at the broader readership of the thread, and I believe I have made both my personal opinion and official forum policy clear here.
 
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