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When the pandemic ends: Where do we go from here?

Red Memories

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I feel like coronavirus has done more than just be a pandemic. It has shown flaws in systems, flaws in human behavior, and compromised situations.

So I am curious, where DO we go from here? What do things look like for the future? Do different laws need passed to try and alleviate the occurrences we had this time? What do you see?
 

Firebird 8118

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In all honesty, I don’t know. :mellow:

I wish there were clearer answers to these questions, but... among other things, the pandemic has also fully exposed the ever-growing rift among those of us living in the US. Even if we tried to pass laws to alleviate some of the chaos we’ve seen over the past four years, they will always be met with the fiercest opposition. Until we can start to bridge the gaps, anything we build will collapse like a house of cards.
 

Stigmata

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I feel like coronavirus has done more than just be a pandemic. It has shown flaws in systems, flaws in human behavior, and compromised situations.

So I am curious, where DO we go from here? What do things look like for the future? Do different laws need passed to try and alleviate the occurrences we had this time? What do you see?

I agree with the bolded 100%. The combination of Trump and an inept/complicit Republican senate highlighted just how broken our system is, and how despite being elected to represent their constituencies, politicians really don't give a rat's ass about anything besides themselves and their corporate donors.

Republicans can longer claim to be the party of pro-life and preserving traditional family values.

I think a political paradigm shift is on the horizon within both parties, though. Within the Republicans you have the sect that seems to embrace the fringe groups and conspiracy theorists, who willingly choose to reject science and facts which do not fit within their narrative. There's also almost a sprinkle of anarchist to them, in that they'd happily tear the system entirely down to meet their end. This group is actually gaining a bit of political traction with a few known Qanon members gaining seats in the House this past election.

On the left you have the progressive wing which is managing to hold their districts, while more moderate Democrats lost their seats to Republicans within the House. This is creating a fissure within the Democratic party as moderates blame progressives for being too radical and alienating independents, yet the actual results seem to show that people are in favor of progressive policies, yet aren't excited about turning out to vote for Diet Dr. Republican Democratic moderates. The moderates still hold the power within the party but that hold seems to be diminishing with every election. All it is going to take is some lightning rod personality to come around that chooses to run for the presidency as a true progressive and not a Democrat concerned with reaching across the aisle, and I think it's game over for moderates. It's coming, it's just a matter of when.

The system is about to erupt, and Trump was just the beginning. This lack of response to the soon to end pandemic social safety programs may he what kicks it off -- when you have millions of people simultaneously facing eviction, hunger, with no real economic prospects of bettering their situation, shit goes sideways really, really quickly.
 

Stigmata

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Also with the closure of several hundreds of thousands of small business, coupled with an influx of people attempting to return to the workforce at one time, I imagine it'll be a gigantic race to the bottom in terms of job wages. Remember after the 08 financial crisis when investors came in and scooped up the foreclosures for pennies on the dollar? Imagine that but with businesses x1000 -- the biggest corporations that had the capital to weather the storm will profit and grow immensely, all at the expense of the consumer.

The rich will get exponentially richer while the poor will have to work harder for less. I imagine we will see a pretty big expansion of the gig economy sector.

The current system is not sustainable.
 

ceecee

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Also with the closure of several hundreds of thousands of small business, coupled with an influx of people attempting to return to the workforce at one time, I imagine it'll be a gigantic race to the bottom in terms of job wages. Remember after the 08 financial crisis when investors came in and scooped up the foreclosures for pennies on the dollar? Imagine that but with businesses x1000 -- the biggest corporations that had the capital to weather the storm will profit and grow immensely, all at the expense of the consumer.

The rich will get exponentially richer while the poor will have to work harder for less. I imagine we will see a pretty big expansion of the gig economy sector.

The current system is not sustainable.

This is the one thing I'm sure of.
 

Magnus

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I feel like coronavirus has done more than just be a pandemic. It has shown flaws in systems, flaws in human behavior, and compromised situations.

So I am curious, where DO we go from here? What do things look like for the future? Do different laws need passed to try and alleviate the occurrences we had this time? What do you see?
I am in no hurry to return to business as usual. I rather enjoy the lockdown and social distancing.
 

Lark

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I feel like coronavirus has done more than just be a pandemic. It has shown flaws in systems, flaws in human behavior, and compromised situations.

So I am curious, where DO we go from here? What do things look like for the future? Do different laws need passed to try and alleviate the occurrences we had this time? What do you see?

I definitely do think that it has highlighted some of the bigger problems with some of the established "normal business" of government, at least in the UK, but hey it's not like its not been clear that there have been problems for a long time, westminister elites and the UKCP had already rendered the country unable to deal with bad weather and flooding.

If anything at all it has demonstrated that it is possible for elites and governments characterised by entrenched privilege, in fact with defending old money and privilege as their very core principles, to maintain themselves in office despite it all and remain popular with micro adjustments and manipulations. I dont expect it to change.

It could get worse. In fact I think it will and next time it will be something even simpler that could decimate the population causing wider spread death and trauma than any single spree killer or some similar criminal action could have done. Part of the problem is that the elites are totally out of ideas. They've got nothing other than what they already tried and found has not worked. They cant even come up with entertaining or amusing lies anymore and their front men and women are totally and utterly pathetic, so I would expect to see more and more of politics as a bizarre sort of amateur theatre or long running farce production.

There are certain societies, and I think the anglosphere is very like this, in which there are expectations which have gotten so, so bad, so low, that they dont challenge a lot of misconduct that they really should, they expect poor or none existent service for instance. That is one part of the population, a kind of acceptance of "we cant have nice things", or even "the basics", and increasingly a confusion between "the basics" and "nice things". Then there is this other part of the population, whose expectations are way, way, way too high and who've never had to reign their expectations in, those are the tax dodgers, evaders, shirkers, and that's a big, big problem too, they wont accept even very minor, meager adjustments in taxation, ON PRINCIPLE.

So you end up with the laughable situation in which a country like the UK can bluff that they are super power, sailing nuclear subs around the world etc. and they cant even protect nurses, doctors, cleaners while they go about their day to day business of fighting a disease pandemic. I really find it hard to believe that anywhere that disease or bad weather has beat could possibly make a go of things in a stand up fight or protracted conflagration. However, it didnt take the pandemic to make that clear. There's none so blind as will not see and falling back on racism, sectarianism, a bunch of other vague prejudices which amount to fiddling while rome burns is what we can expect, in the UK at least.

The other big thing which I think hasnt really been spotlighted is just how disease did spread, to places like the UK for instance, and island state. I expected the racists to make more out of this and blame immigration, which, sure, the could, and for some people that'd be enough to not trouble themselves with thinking about it any longer. Although, seriously, that wasnt it. They kept the borders open for the privileged. They also kept the black markets that supply the privileged running too. No shortages of cocaine in westminister or the city of london for instance. There's little in the way of focus on that kind of thing and I expect it to remain that way too.
 

Lark

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I am in no hurry to return to business as usual. I rather enjoy the lockdown and social distancing.

I'm in absolute agreement about this.

I know that there's a lot of bad stuff comes up any time anyone mentions the whole acceleration idea because its riddled with conspiracy theory and racism but I do think there's a lot that did get implemented in a hurry that otherwise would have been a dreadfully long time coming otherwise. There's a lot of things I think should be maintained and even become normative, social distancing is just one, I hate "space invaders" at the best of times. Some of the travel, even in a small place like where I live, for meetings which could have been e-mails etc. was and is ridiculous.
 

Lark

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Also with the closure of several hundreds of thousands of small business, coupled with an influx of people attempting to return to the workforce at one time, I imagine it'll be a gigantic race to the bottom in terms of job wages. Remember after the 08 financial crisis when investors came in and scooped up the foreclosures for pennies on the dollar? Imagine that but with businesses x1000 -- the biggest corporations that had the capital to weather the storm will profit and grow immensely, all at the expense of the consumer.

The rich will get exponentially richer while the poor will have to work harder for less. I imagine we will see a pretty big expansion of the gig economy sector.

The current system is not sustainable.

Greater wage slavery then.

I do think that the pandemic could be exploited as the latest episode of disaster capitalism and just ramp up the asset stripping predatory fast buck speculators.

The version of capitalism in the anglosphere is going for a Darwin award and it could threaten to take captialism per se with it, even other things like rule of law, due process, due diligence, reasonable conduct in public life etc.
 

Lark

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In all honesty, I don’t know. :mellow:

I wish there were clearer answers to these questions, but... among other things, the pandemic has also fully exposed the ever-growing rift among those of us living in the US. Even if we tried to pass laws to alleviate some of the chaos we’ve seen over the past four years, they will always be met with the fiercest opposition. Until we can start to bridge the gaps, anything we build will collapse like a house of cards.

I dont think that a top down imposition or legislative approach to these kinds of problems works, even if it did I actually think it would be building up problems for the future.

In the US specifically there's a bunch of things, although the creation and on going swelling of masses of the population who're "under developed" accounts for a lot. It accounts for why people cant/wont follow basic public health measures and prefer to listen to "exciting nonsense" that flatters their egos about being at the heart of a conspiracy, than facing up to prosaic, mundane reality in all its dullness.

Fostering stupidity or being complicit in its spread has consequences.

I'm all for certain sorts of individualism and I love freedom dearly but being unable to really understand the social character of life, to be in deep, deep denial about that, its an issue. It will impede the ability to respond to disease. Or other sorts of disasters. And in a new age of low intensity warfare between super powers, plausible deniability, proxy wars, spy games, I expect that this will be one MAJOR short coming which will be exploited like an open door in an operating system to a hacker.
 

Lark

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I agree with the bolded 100%. The combination of Trump and an inept/complicit Republican senate highlighted just how broken our system is, and how despite being elected to represent their constituencies, politicians really don't give a rat's ass about anything besides themselves and their corporate donors.

Republicans can longer claim to be the party of pro-life and preserving traditional family values.

I think a political paradigm shift is on the horizon within both parties, though. Within the Republicans you have the sect that seems to embrace the fringe groups and conspiracy theorists, who willingly choose to reject science and facts which do not fit within their narrative. There's also almost a sprinkle of anarchist to them, in that they'd happily tear the system entirely down to meet their end. This group is actually gaining a bit of political traction with a few known Qanon members gaining seats in the House this past election.

On the left you have the progressive wing which is managing to hold their districts, while more moderate Democrats lost their seats to Republicans within the House. This is creating a fissure within the Democratic party as moderates blame progressives for being too radical and alienating independents, yet the actual results seem to show that people are in favor of progressive policies, yet aren't excited about turning out to vote for Diet Dr. Republican Democratic moderates. The moderates still hold the power within the party but that hold seems to be diminishing with every election. All it is going to take is some lightning rod personality to come around that chooses to run for the presidency as a true progressive and not a Democrat concerned with reaching across the aisle, and I think it's game over for moderates. It's coming, it's just a matter of when.

The system is about to erupt, and Trump was just the beginning. This lack of response to the soon to end pandemic social safety programs may he what kicks it off -- when you have millions of people simultaneously facing eviction, hunger, with no real economic prospects of bettering their situation, shit goes sideways really, really quickly.

I actually doubt anything so exciting will happen.

If there's anything sure in the western world its that the systems have yet to develop any true checks and balances on entropy and atrophy.

I just expect increasing instances of craziness, in the US it looks a lot worse since there are fire arms in the mix, a lot of ex-service personnel who're easily radicalized, things like that but I expect that there will just be increasing instances of sporadic violence and a mass of people whose conditions get worse and worse with it all. All the "something's gotta give" talk is really misjudged.

Plus the anarchic right or left are just destructive, they dont have much of a practical vision, they're long on hopes, promises and utopian dream states. Short on anything other than harm and most of the time they actually harm their imagined constituencies the very most. Extremes are born of despair and resignation, whatever they might say, its why they cant see beyond some martyrdom episode, whatever shape that may take.

If either of those tendencies ever succeeded in mounting victories it would be bad for the US and world, there would be greater numbers of the mainstream populace locked into a kind of perpetual adolescence and less and less of a capacity to think outside of the narrow confines chosen for them by self-appointed spokes persons.
 

Mole

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After the Virus

We have no new cases of the virus in New Zealand or Australia, and lockdown has ended and we are out and about.

The OECD predicts a boom for Australia and New Zealand.

Meanwhile we are busy entrenching our freedom and prosperity by forming a free trade and free movement for the four parliamentary democracies under our Head of State, Queen Elizabeth II, called CANZUK (Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and Britain).

CANZUK will be stable and congenial, and a magnet for investment. All with the same political system, all with the same Law, and all with the same economic system, all under the same Head of State.

Is this more than we deserve, or has our time come?
 

Lark

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We have no new cases of the virus in New Zealand or Australia, and lockdown has ended and we are out and about.

The OECD predicts a boom for Australia and New Zealand.

Meanwhile we are busy entrenching our freedom and prosperity by forming a free trade and free movement for the four parliamentary democracies under our Head of State, Queen Elizabeth II, called CANZUK (Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and Britain).

CANZUK will be stable and congenial, and a magnet for investment. All with the same political system, all with the same Law, and all with the same economic system, all under the same Head of State.

Is this more than we deserve, or has our time come?

I think CANZUK is a figment of your imagination Mole.

Carry on.
 

Mole

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I think CANZUK is a figment of your imagination Mole.

Carry on.

CANZUK is now being debated in all four parliaments, and polls tell us the majority in each the four democracies are enthusiastic for CANZUK. And rather than being a figment of my imagination, CANZUK is already catching the eye of investors, and is as inevitable as coming home.
 

Mole

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Interestingly, the four parliamentary democracies have a common language, English, which has many more words than any other language, and it has the largest number of speakers of any language.

We perceive by making distinctions, and the more distinctions, the more we see, and each word of English is a distinction, so English perceives more with greater subtlety.

Is this luck, or is it destiny?
 

Lark

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CANZUK is now being debated in all four parliaments, and polls tell us the majority in each the four democracies are enthusiastic for CANZUK. And rather than being a figment of my imagination, CANZUK is already catching the eye of investors, and is as inevitable as coming home.

I'm really surprised that absolutely no one has reported that.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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There will be more pandemics soon and they’re going to be coming with greater frequency. This is the new normal
 

Virtual ghost

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For me the cards on the table are somewhat different.


In the political sense the EU integration will almost surely continue and that should continue to bring certain progress. On the other hand the influence of anglo countries will probably continue to decrease since those countries tend to have more pressing concerns at home or in their own issues. Thus they will generally leave this part of the world to the EU. However there will be big political and economic fights with those that advocate interests and values of authoritarian eastern powers (since they still have cards to play in the region). What overall will be defined with how well the EU integration is doing. Thus if the job will be done well the totalitarian influence will basically just evaporate. This was on the menu before the pandemic and therefore it will continue to be.




On the more detailed level:

The ideas of getting off the socialized medicine will quiet down, since now it is perfectly clear how much such system can mean to everybody (economy included).
The years of economic growth and debt reduction will continue, perhaps the process will even speed up if the cards are well played.
Euro will officially become a currency since that is already in the making.
The projects of green energy deal and energy independence will continue.
It is becoming obvious that some corrupt politicians will lose power and that their parties will fall part (1.5% approval).
We will need to find more money for all kinds of infrastructure in order to speed things up.
 
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