Trump vs. Biden

[Maou]

How long do you guys think Biden will be president before the House tries to remove him and make Harris president?

 

[FemMecha]

The bolded is something I don't agree with. It just reinforces the "snowflake" thing. Just because you unfriended them doesn't make them go away. I could just feel this way because I've probably been active online longer than the average person, and I'm used to political discussions and the stuff that goes on. I also think it makes me more in touch with what people on the other side actually think. People who haven't been online as much seem to be more shocked by the kinds of things people believe, while I'm more like "they've been believing that kind of stuff for a long time before Trump."

The only unfriending that happened because of politics was when one right-wing uncle (my mom's twin!) unfriended me. I didn't unfriend the other right-wing uncle, even though, yes, he does tend to troll my rare political posts. My cousin (the suspected NTP) isn't on Facebook. I don't know if he even voted for Trump again... I got the sense he would have gone for Bernie in 2016 if he had been on the table.

I'm trying to describe some dynamics I've observed. For some reason the bellydance community in a few locations has been aggressively unfriending Trump supporters. There was one *extremely* aggressive individual that would screenshot and post anyone on her friend's list seeming to support Trump to be commented on with great disdain before unfriending, so she was aggressively black-balling reputations. One instance bothered me because I went to the woman's page who supported Trump, and I don't even think she was that die-hard about it. I have seen behaviors from certain groups of people who are Liberals that I think are not constructive.

I think you must know from my posts that I am beyond horrified by Trump. I have friends and family who support him, and actually a bunch of my students come from a former church I attended that has Trump leanings. I have felt a desire to unfriend people through this process, but have generally not done it.

I don't support Trump supporters, but feel it is absolutely necessary to maintain a rigorous objectivity about these social dynamics and see whatever is happening on both sides. Please do not misunderstand me to be taking a position that everyone is equally in the wrong or equally persecuted or something.

I think that feelings of bullying, persecution, and powerlessness are rampant in U.S. culture. If there was a way to address these core ailments and stabilize that in Trump supporters, finding a way to replace their psychological Trump crutch with a sense of genuine internal power, then perhaps the country won't be damned.

 

[Jonny]

How long do you guys think Biden will be president before the House tries to remove him and make Harris president?

4 years. He could die or resign at some point due to old age (4 years is a long time for someone in their late seventies), but he won’t be removed by Congress. For one thing, a likely R senate would have to agree.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yes we can laugh about White trump voters feeling persecuted. We can show all the facts and figures in the world to debunk them, but we need to understand WHY they feel that way, and then we can really get everyone unified in solidarity. I know that's a hard sell to make; I myself feel disgusted by a lot of those good old boy types I see in my community with trump hats, but understanding them is key to changing them. They aren't going to just go away if Biden wins.

 

[Maou]

4 years. He could die or resign at some point due to old age (4 years is a long time for someone in their late seventies), but he won’t be removed by Congress. For one thing, a likely R senate would have to agree.

I was more thinking they would remove him based on mental unfitness. You don't actually believe Biden wanted to do this right? I think he was forced into it, because Democrats didn't want Sanders. He might resign or be removed in 6 months. We'll see.

 

[Jonny]

I was more thinking they would remove him based on mental unfitness. You don't actually believe Biden wanted to do this right? I think he was forced into it, because Democrats didn't want Sanders. He might resign or be removed in 6 months. We'll see.

I do believe he wanted to do it. I think he felt guilty about not running in 2016 and stopping Trump in the first place. I think you’re right that he felt like the country wouldn’t support any of the other Democrats over Trump, and so he felt compelled to run this time. Frankly, I think he’s the only Dem who is a good fit for what our country is facing right now. We need some status quo while we work through our differences.

Edit: Trump could still win btw. Though I don’t think that would be best for our country. Find someone else.

 

[Red Memories]

I do believe he wanted to do it. I think he felt guilty about not running in 2016 and stopping Trump in the first place. I think you’re right that he felt like the country wouldn’t support any of the other Democrats over Trump, and so he felt compelled to run this time. Frankly, I think he’s the only Dem who is a good fit for what our country is facing right now. We need some status quo while we work through our differences.

Edit: Trump could still win btw. Though I don’t think that would be best for our country. Find someone else.

also if the Dems really planned this...why did they choose Kamala Harris?

Why wouldn't they choose a different person people liked more?

 

[Stigmata]

Yes we can laugh about White trump voters feeling persecuted. We can show all the facts and figures in the world to debunk them, but we need to understand WHY they feel that way, and then we can really get everyone unified in solidarity. I know that's a hard sell to make; I myself feel disgusted by a lot of those good old boy types I see in my community with trump hats, but understanding them is key to changing them. They aren't going to just go away if Biden wins.

I think what you're expressing is really more of an indictment on the Democrats inability to resonate with rural voters, outside of Barack Obama -- The perception of the Democratic party seems to become increasingly associated with one with of being more college educated individuals who carry themselves with an air of pretentiousness about themselves, while also viewing themselves as the moral arbiters of the country. I think there's a classist aspect of that causing rural voters to hold disdain with this perception of the Democratic party, as if they feel the bit city liberals are both overlooking and looking down upon them. You also have a split within the party between the more progressive and moderate wings, with the younger and more progressive members holding more of an all-or-nothing philosophy when it comes to voting.

The fact that this race is as close as it is really just serves as an indictment on Democrats and their inability to find a candidate that actually gets their voters excited while uniting the party, which is one thing Republicans overwhelmingly succeed at. Even the fact of people still saying "but what if bernie was in the race" is an absolute joke -- THIS is why we lose elections despite the country as a whole being in favor of more progressive policies. Despite their policies not favoring average everyday american voters, Republicans excel at controlling the narrative while being able to unite their party behind who they believe gives them the best chance to win, even outside petty policy lines.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I'm trying to describe some dynamics I've observed. For some reason the bellydance community in a few locations has been aggressively unfriending Trump supporters. There was one *extremely* aggressive individual that would screenshot and post anyone on her friend's list seeming to support Trump to be commented on with great disdain before unfriending, so she was aggressively black-balling reputations. One instance bothered me because I went to the woman's page who supported Trump, and I don't even think she was that die-hard about it. I have seen behaviors from certain groups of people who are Liberals that I think are not constructive.

Oh, I agree that it happens. I just mean that I don't agree with doing so.

I think that feelings of bullying, persecution, and powerlessness are rampant in U.S. culture. If there was a way to address these core ailments and stabilize that in Trump supporters, finding a way to replace their psychological Trump crutch with a sense of genuine internal power, then perhaps the country won't be damned.

If that could be done, yes, it would work. If the issues at root are economic anxiety, that may be challenging without addressing the economic anxiety.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Yes we can laugh about White trump voters feeling persecuted. We can show all the facts and figures in the world to debunk them, but we need to understand WHY they feel that way, and then we can really get everyone unified in solidarity. I know that's a hard sell to make; I myself feel disgusted by a lot of those good old boy types I see in my community with trump hats, but understanding them is key to changing them. They aren't going to just go away if Biden wins.

I think it's fear for a lot of them. I'm not sure how to make them less afraid, though. I generally tend to think a lot of the things they are afraid of are ridiculous, though. It therefore makes me angry when they mock the fear of others to cover up their own sense of insecurity. So I agree with you in theory while perhaps finding it challenging to implement in practice.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I think it's fear for a lot of them. I'm not sure how to make them less afraid, though. I generally tend to think a lot of the things they are afraid of are ridiculous, though.

Propaganda, misinformation and a ratings-driven media are to blame, IMO

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Propaganda, misinformation and a ratings-driven media are to blame, IMO

Probably. I don't know how to combat those things.

 

[Red Memories]

I think what you're expressing is really more of an indictment on the Democrats inability to resonate with rural voters, outside of Barack Obama -- The perception of the Democratic party seems to become increasingly associated with one with of being more college educated individuals who carry themselves with an air of pretentiousness about themselves, while also viewing themselves as the moral arbiters of the country. I think there's a classist aspect of that causing rural voters to hold disdain with this perception of the Democratic party, as if they feel the bit city liberals are both overlooking and looking down upon them. You also have a split within the party between the more progressive and moderate wings, with the younger and more progressive members holding more of an all-or-nothing philosophy when it comes to voting.

The fact that this race is as close as it is really just serves as an indictment on Democrats and their inability to find a candidate that actually gets their voters excited while uniting the party, which is one thing Republicans overwhelmingly succeed at. Even the fact of people still saying "but what if bernie was in the race" is an absolute joke -- THIS is why we lose elections despite the country as a whole being in favor of more progressive policies. Despite their policies not favoring average everyday american voters, Republicans excel at controlling the narrative while being able to unite their party behind who they believe gives them the best chance to win, even outside petty policy lines.

While I consider myself democratic, I actually resonate with this feeling most college educated city people look down on rural and southern folk. I get tired of hearing the world is only them and these farmers out here making your food don't matter. I come from a more "southern" in spirit area and the shit they assume I believe is pretty insulting too.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Probably. I don't know how to combat those things.

I don’t know. It’s hard to talk to these people. I try to listen and ask questions but it’s hard sometimes

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

While I consider myself democratic, I actually resonate with this feeling most college educated city people look down on rural and southern folk. I get tired of hearing the world is only them and these farmers out here making your food don't matter. I come from a more "southern" in spirit area and the shit they assume I believe is pretty insulting too.

Yeah I am from the south, with some roots in the mountains. One can only read so many generalizations about southerners and appalachian people without getting a little peeved.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

A narrow win, if it sticks, might actually be better for this country than a blow-out. There was a blowout in 2008 and apart from passing a healthcare plan from a right-wing think tank, they didn't manage to do a lot of the things that were needed.

If Biden won heavily, I think that would help the Democratic establishment in doubling-down on Clintonian "Third Way" politics. A narrow win makes their case a lot weaker for that still being effective (i'm not sure how effective it ever was because Perot acted as a major spoiler for George Bush Sr. Obama's campaign message, meanwhile, was not "status quo rather than bugfuck craziness" but rather "hope and change"; I think in that case people thought they were voting for one thing when really they were voting for something else). So it really might be better in the long game and give more maneuvering room for actual progressives to take over the party.

 

[Red Memories]

A narrow win, if it sticks, might actually be better for this country than a blow-out. There was a blowout in 2008 and apart from passing a healthcare plan from a right-wing think tank, they didn't manage to do a lot of the things that were needed.

If Biden won heavily, I think that would help the Democratic establishment in doubling-down on Clintonian "Third Way" politics. A narrow win makes their case a lot weaker for that still being effective (i'm not sure how effective it ever was because Perot acted as a major spoiler for George Bush Sr. Obama's campaign message, meanwhile, was not "status quo rather than bugfuck craziness" but rather "hope and change"; I think in that case people thought they were voting for one thing when really they were voting for something else). So it really might be better in the long game and give more maneuvering room for actual progressives to take over the party.

Clintonian policies were shit. I'm sorry. just my feelings.

 

[Virtual ghost]

also if the Dems really planned this...why did they choose Kamala Harris?

Why wouldn't they choose a different person people liked more?

Why? Politics inside the party and identity politics.
But yeah, taking someone that the base evidently rejected in the primaries and that fires up the opponent's base isn't really the best strategy.



Although whoever wins the elections this closely will not have a clear mandate, especially since the Senate and the House are also fairly close as it seems. So all of this again looks more like lost years, if the system doesn't just implode under pressures (foreign, COVID, unrest, debts, incompetence ... etc.).

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Clintonian policies were shit. I'm sorry. just my feelings.

Yeah, and they didn't win over the GOP or anything; have you noticed they talk about the Clintons as the devil incarnate?

 

[Stigmata]

It's interesting to note how certain trigger words Trump used throughout his campaign that just seemed like crazy whackjob ranting actually had a measurable effect on independents -- the socialist/communist and "radical left" framing seems to be the deciding factor in turning Florida red in Miami-Dade county.