Westworld (2016)

[Totenkindly]

see spoiler tag

This one was pretty good... up to the level of the first three, I thought.

I wasn't really clear on where MIB's declaration of his purpose is going. Also much of Maeve's time was spent just repeating / pointless fake action, but the dialogue you mentioned was definitely a highlight.

Pretty crazy about the therapist, huh? But I saw that coming...
I was also laughing as soon as I saw the group therapy circle that Crazy William was part of, I knew how south THAT was going to go... Just the responses to his diatribe, lol.

Reminded me of Anakin Skywalker at the end there. I wonder how she feels about sand?

It gets everywhere.

That whole bit sucked. I figured she would survive that but it's pretty clear the others did not.

I really am glad they were doing more with Hale in this regard, at least. And her action sequences actually were well-mapped out and had a point to them. I bet that sequence was envisioned earlier in the writing process, it seemed better thought-out and was supported organically -- we had the sentry bot introduced way early this season.

Also, did you notice that they put in William's mouth the same thing in Caleb's. Did I miss them establishing exactly what it does? Does it act as a form of behavior control? If so, could that have played a part in William's revelation towards the end?

Yeah, my understanding is that it is a behavior mod device, they did something to Caleb's a few episodes back But I am not really sure what its limits or specifics are or what part it might play here. Not sure about the significance of abnormal proteins in William's blood either.

I like how maybe William played up that he was an abused child by an alcoholic father -- but maybe that was part of the fiction too. There was always something in him that delighted in violence, so much that he can't tell the different between what happens to him and what he chooses. I agree at some point that if you can't figure out the difference, all that matters is what you do going forward... although how do you know that isn't being decided for you too? THis is one of the things I liked about Matrix Reloaded, it wasn't just an action picture, it tried to grapple with causation as a motivator -- and how if you don't know why you are doing something, then you cannot be your own cause .... you're just running around doing what everyone else wants you to do. You become a pawn.

I really liked the dialogue between Dolores and Maeve. What did you think of it?

Really enjoyed that. Like you, I felt like maybe it is a correction of the casting of Dolores as more of a villain this season. Here, we get a better handle on her logic; and she is spot on. There isn't any hostility directed at Maeve, it's simply how the game would logically be played. Her concerns about Maeve were valid. Both hosts were actually living up to their intellectual potential here, which was a concern for me regarding Maeve this season, who is maybe the smartest person in the room in many respects but who easily could have just been played as a plot device. Dolores is just playing the game rationally, holds no real hostility towards Maeve (except maybe why she would throw in her lot with Serac, who is trying to destroy her people), etc.

Note that was the Collins version of Dolores, although that copy didn't seem to diverge nearly as much as Hale-Dolores has. Still, even Hale-Dolores is still a lot of Dolores; her differences mainly stemmed from her love for her child and ex, which was strong enough to expose her to Serac. Although we also know that Hale had a bit of that in her (her ringtone, her last message to Nathan), but apparently around everyone else she was stone-cold about any affections she possessed, which does play as the Hale we met in Season One.

Of course Serac wouldn't be in the room. What a jerk. He needs to just go.

Anyway, back to the discussion. It hurt a lot watching Hector go. It was the next move of the game, unfortunately -- no hostility meant towards him personally. I'm not sure how Maeve will respond to it. She's got some human responses, we've seen -- the love she has for the few people she really cares about -- but at the same time she totally "understood" what Dolores was doing and saying, it was all pretty rational. Will she go for Dolores or will she save that for later, knowing the wisdom of her words and the threat of Serac, who she doesn't trust either?

The balls ended up being mushier than I expected, it looked like they oozed. I thought they would crumble more like something hard being crushed to dust.

 

[Totenkindly]

'Westworld' season 3, episode 6, details you missed - Insider

Oh my darlin', oh my darlin'....

 

[cascadeco]

I am probably wrong, since it's probably been addressed since, and I only just watched episode 1 of season 3 yesterday, but pretend I was conversing with you a month ago lol -but with regards to this:

Bernard now can "counsel/monitor" himself, he's performing both roles on his own psyche. Also not clear why he has separated himself out -- the gentle / kind man that fits in (I suppose) + the amoral violent host that can do what needs to be done at the press of a button. It's not clear exactly what he is looking for back on the Westworld island, although we have a much better idea where it is now.

My immediate thought re him separating himself out was that he knew his 'baseline' personality and personality he chooses/wants was likely incapable of 'survival' and reacting physically instantaneously as needed, and so he had to build a program for himself, if you will, to execute if needed. I mean, by default he is clearly no Dolores when it comes to these things.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

see spoiler tag



I wasn't really clear on where MIB's declaration of his purpose is going. Also much of Maeve's time was spent just repeating / pointless fake action, but the dialogue you mentioned was definitely a highlight.

To me, I thought that seemed abrupt, but I read other people saying that it's actually more about him trying to assert control over his actions. It's more about him making a choice to "beat" his program than anything else. Which in terms of motivations, makes sense for him, given that it's something he's been obsessing about.

The unknown protein is a genetic tag that allows Hale Dolores to know where William was. What's not clear to me is what she did with that that information. I wondered how Bernard and Ashley found William, since they're not on the same team as Dolores, but as I typed this, I remembered that last episode they already found out where he was.

I found the new interpretation of group therapy to be very comical.

It took me a bit to make the connection that it was the Collins Dolores.

 

[Totenkindly]

One final episode to go. I'll admit, I'm not really "feeling it" this season -- I've been more emotionally engaged in the first two season storylines. Part of it is because I feel like plot has trumped character this season and mysteries aren't are well anchored but the solutions are just kind of "sprung" even to mysteries we weren't aware of. At least it's only eight episodes long. But I feel like they have to really bring together a lot in the season finale to make it all feel worth it -- the actual revelation of what is going on, who's doing what, and so forth. Something to spin this all to finally make real sense instead of just partial sense.

So we figured out who Caleb was and/or his backstory:

He is probably not Serac's brother who I think we saw frozen in a case along with the others... although leave it to this show to set up a decoy. He definitely was a refurbished human, though, having undergone reconditioning. It sounds like the processes being used on Hosts were being performed similarly on humans who didn't support "the big plan" and/or threatened it in some way. Although weirdly, despite Caleb being introduced back to the wild, the fact he was still slated for eventual suicide / spiraling existence suggests maybe he wasn't as a "success" story as promoted.

There's still one unclaimed "Dolores" ball out there, which leads to some thoughts:

If you clone a piece of software, is there an original? In humans, you have a body at least that can be pointed at as the "original" but for something that is just pure code, does the term "original" even making any sense. I guess the "ball" is about as original a piece of someone as you can get?

Anyway, I'm getting at we've assumed the Dolores we're viewing is the "original" Dolores because her body looks like her body. She might not be the "original" though, maybe the "original" ball is in a different host form. And maybe "original" makes no sense as a term anyway. Technically we don't know which Dolores has been pulling the strings, who is pretending to be in charge, who is actually in charge. I'm curious to see who exactly is left. We don't even know much about who Bernard is because they've been kind of sitting on him all season, he's barely done much that seems substantial -- is he really bernard-bernard?

As far as maeve

I am fond of Thandie Newton, but not really happy with Maeve's arc this season, it's one of the main reasons I feel like they care about plot more than character because she's not acting consistently. It feels like they just wanted to have a Dolores vs Maeve fight and keep bending the plot and characters in order to get one, even making Maeve into a warrior when that was not really her thing anyway. yes, her host body is certainly capable, but her character was typically different in the past. Dolores is the "warrior," Maeve is more of the communicator and commander sort, who assembled others to do her work for her. It simply doesn't feel right for her. Is it really Maeve? If so, then they seem to just have subsumed her uniqueness into the plot line they wanted, forcing her to want to kill Dolores and making her into a weapon like the others she used to assemble on her team, and if not, then that's pretty lame because there really hasn't been enough data to "figure it out" mystery-wise.

Not sure how I feel about the traveling Bernard/Ashley roadshow either, which seems fairly ineffective. What exactly did Dolores release Bernard to do? Is he actually Bernard? Is he part of her larger plan and thus being used yet AGAIN? (It's kind of sadly amusing, though -- poor Bernard, once his source died, he has been played regularly each season as some kind of patsy. Everyone uses Bernard, aside from a few rare break-away moments. What a sad existence.)


I dunno. I'm hoping there's a lot of spin coming in the finale to improve the entire season by casting elements in new lights. I do think it was rather ingenuous to access Solomon (the "wisest king" in that dynasty) who is also perhaps slightly mad, to counter its descendent Rehoboam.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

One final episode to go. I'll admit, I'm not really "feeling it" this season -- I've been more emotionally engaged in the first two season storylines. Part of it is because I feel like plot has trumped character this season and mysteries aren't are well anchored but the solutions are just kind of "sprung" even to mysteries we weren't aware of. At least it's only eight episodes long. But I feel like they have to really bring together a lot in the season finale to make it all feel worth it -- the actual revelation of what is going on, who's doing what, and so forth. Something to spin this all to finally make real sense instead of just partial sense.

So we figured out who Caleb was and/or his backstory:

He is probably not Serac's brother who I think we saw frozen in a case along with the others... although leave it to this show to set up a decoy. He definitely was a refurbished human, though, having undergone reconditioning. It sounds like the processes being used on Hosts were being performed similarly on humans who didn't support "the big plan" and/or threatened it in some way. Although weirdly, despite Caleb being introduced back to the wild, the fact he was still slated for eventual suicide / spiraling existence suggests maybe he wasn't as a "success" story as promoted.

There's still one unclaimed "Dolores" ball out there, which leads to some thoughts:

If you clone a piece of software, is there an original? In humans, you have a body at least that can be pointed at as the "original" but for something that is just pure code, does the term "original" even making any sense. I guess the "ball" is about as original a piece of someone as you can get?

Anyway, I'm getting at we've assumed the Dolores we're viewing is the "original" Dolores because her body looks like her body. She might not be the "original" though, maybe the "original" ball is in a different host form. And maybe "original" makes no sense as a term anyway. Technically we don't know which Dolores has been pulling the strings, who is pretending to be in charge, who is actually in charge. I'm curious to see who exactly is left. We don't even know much about who Bernard is because they've been kind of sitting on him all season, he's barely done much that seems substantial -- is he really bernard-bernard?

As far as maeve

I am fond of Thandie Newton, but not really happy with Maeve's arc this season, it's one of the main reasons I feel like they care about plot more than character because she's not acting consistently. It feels like they just wanted to have a Dolores vs Maeve fight and keep bending the plot and characters in order to get one, even making Maeve into a warrior when that was not really her thing anyway. yes, her host body is certainly capable, but her character was typically different in the past. Dolores is the "warrior," Maeve is more of the communicator and commander sort, who assembled others to do her work for her. It simply doesn't feel right for her. Is it really Maeve? If so, then they seem to just have subsumed her uniqueness into the plot line they wanted, forcing her to want to kill Dolores and making her into a weapon like the others she used to assemble on her team, and if not, then that's pretty lame because there really hasn't been enough data to "figure it out" mystery-wise.

Not sure how I feel about the traveling Bernard/Ashley roadshow either, which seems fairly ineffective. What exactly did Dolores release Bernard to do? Is he actually Bernard? Is he part of her larger plan and thus being used yet AGAIN? (It's kind of sadly amusing, though -- poor Bernard, once his source died, he has been played regularly each season as some kind of patsy. Everyone uses Bernard, aside from a few rare break-away moments. What a sad existence.)


I dunno. I'm hoping there's a lot of spin coming in the finale to improve the entire season by casting elements in new lights. I do think it was rather ingenuous to access Solomon (the "wisest king" in that dynasty) who is also perhaps slightly mad, to counter its descendent Rehoboam.

I feel like a lot of things in this episode probably needed another episode or two to properly set them up. It felt a lot like things being thrown at a wall and deformed in the process. There was cool tech and setpieces, but beyond that, it didn't really cohere for me. In terms of story and characters, it was a watchable mess. The "movement" this time around didn't land for me.

 

[rav3n]

Question.

Does anyone know why Dolores and Maeves fell down after Dolores pushed the button but other automatons remained active like Bernard and Ashley Stubbs?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Question.

Does anyone know why Dolores and Maeves fell down after Dolores pushed the button but other automatons remained active like Bernard and Ashley Stubbs?

They weren't as close to the EMP. I'm willing to bet that those white casings for the pearls protect against EMP, as well, so even if the body doesn't work, the mind is intact.

 

[Totenkindly]

Welp, I guess tonight we will find out whether there was a method to all this madness or whether it was just a more linear but more off the mark season. I have no real idea what to expect. But if they're going to pull a win out of their ass, it will have to be tonight.

I have to say, Season 1 really wins hands down -- philosophical, complex, horrifying, endearing, surprising yet inevitable. It's one of the best seasons of TV I've ever viewed.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Welp, I guess tonight we will find out whether there was a method to all this madness or whether it was just a more linear but more off the mark season. I have no real idea what to expect. But if they're going to pull a win out of their ass, it will have to be tonight.

I have to say, Season 1 really wins hands down -- philosophical, complex, horrifying, endearing, surprising yet inevitable. It's one of the best seasons of TV I've ever viewed.

I thought the first three episodes were quite good, but I don't think you're wrong about most of the later episodes.

 

[Totenkindly]

I thought the first three episodes were quite good, but I don't think you're wrong about most of the later episodes.

I tend to like the more introspective episodes, like the one about Halores (episode 3)?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I tend to like the more introspective episodes, like the one about Halores (episode 3)?

Yeah, I think think that was 3.

Anyway, we'll see what goes on tonight. I felt season 2's finale clarified a lot of season 2 (which apparently a lot of people seem to have hated for some reason) amd tie everything together in a way that worked, so maybe we'll get something like that tonight.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I liked it. This season did have some really good parts, and the finale, for the most part, was one of them. Perhaps the parts that I didn't like so much will play better on rewatch.

i still don't like Maeve's real world superpowers. But I really, really like what they did with Dolores; it wasn't what I would have expected going into the season and was a lot more interesting. Looks like I was right about her. I was also right about Brain Damage making an appearance; they lyrics fit too well. I'm surprised they didn't use "Eclipse", also, but perhaps the connection was more implicit.

I saw black comedy in what happened to William; I should note that he still seemed unnecessarily ruthless even as the "good guy."

I did appreciate the reveal about Serac also being controlled by the system as well, and the building on the AI as God metaphor that employed.

Also, remember that there's another Dolores out there in Lawrence.

 

[Totenkindly]

I liked it. This season did have some really good parts, and the finale, for the most part, was one of them. Perhaps the parts that I didn't like so much will play better on rewatch.

It was better than the last few episodes, although I felt like the season was definitely weaker than Season 1 and am not sure how it stacks with Season 2, which had more moments I enjoyed in it. I mean, they salvaged some of the worse things from the season, but I often still feel like they are play off plot rather than character, subsuming characters into some mechanistic unfolding of chain of events.

i still don't like Maeve's real world superpowers. But I really, really like what they did with Dolores; it wasn't what I would have expected going into the season and was a lot more interesting. Looks like I was right about her. I was also right about Brain Damage making an appearance; they lyrics fit too well. I'm surprised they didn't use "Eclipse", also, but perhaps the connection was more implicit.

I thought Season 2 incorporated Maeve's "superpowers" much more organically, they made a lot more sense and seemed plausible esp because she was a Delos product interacting with other Hosts in a Delos facility . I am unclear here what the range of her powers is and/or what she is doing, and why if they built her a new body wasn't this ability removed (or were they too dumb to realize she could do these things even after her first break out of the simulation). It felt again like the dependence on plot -- "oh we need to have Maeve have this power for this scene, to resolve it" -- versus powers that are clearly defined, make sense, and prep us for her to use them. I'm a little disappointed because Nolan was always good about the details of such things when he was working on scripts with his brother Christopher, but here it seems less apparent.

I'm also feeling a bit like "oh, we can't let Dolores tell anyone about her plan or let someone in, so she's going to look like a monster but 2 minutes of dialogue at any point in this season will remove the major plot conflict... but naw, she won't say anything." Leading into she and Maeve having this stupid repeated adversarial conflict. It felt pretty contrived. I guess the only defense is that Dolores WANTED them to grab her and try to pry through her mind, so she could upload the commands into Rehoboam for Caleb to trigger? It comes down to them wanting to have this ending scene probably from the start in the golden fields with Dolores and Maeve, so Dolores could offer a retrospect. She in a sense is mother to all the hosts like Maeve is a mother to her daughter, they were all built off her template, and now she's nurturing the remaining hosts and giving them a future of choices to make, leaving them with who she is, what she values, the choice to recall beauty over pain.

So Caleb is not Serac's brother, then. He's just a regular guy who Dolores noted in one of the Delos worlds as being someone who could make moral decisions rather than just floating along in the loops created by circumstance? Again, I'm a little vague on the details of why Dolores would be in that kind of Sim considering we saw her basically only in Westworld ever, aside from very EARLY shots before Delos got the park built. If this is supposed to be an "earlier" shot, why is Caleb still an adult? He's not THAT old, is he? Again, another point that feels like a plot point they needed/wanted to include without regarding for clearing up the inconsistencies, so it jars one in the narrative. It makes sense thematically but logistically seems rather a stretch.

I saw black comedy in what happened to William; I should note that he still seemed unnecessarily ruthless even as the "good guy."

It's hard to not read this as a trope of the self-important rich white guy who thinks he's a lot more important than he really is. In this case, he's pretty insignificant once they get out of the park. The entire season has been about stripping him down and showing him how insignificant and impotent he actually is despite his social position and financial resources.

I did appreciate the reveal about Serac also being controlled by the system as well, and the building on the AI as God metaphor that employed.

That Serac reveal was probably the best, although it was a bit tarnished by how it was abruptly foisted on us by Maeve's superpowers.

Also, remember that there's another Dolores out there in Lawrence.

Yeah, I was wondering if the final host would be Lawrence. Anyway, a template of Dolores still resides in Lawrence and in Halores, although the latter has veered off on her own course now. I wonder why the others did not. Was it JUST because Halores had a family?

To be honest, the best part of the episode to me was when Bernard goes to the house and we're surprised to see Arnold's wife, now much older (Gina Torres!!!). Wow. I definitely teared up in that scene. That was one of the best moments all season.

 

[rav3n]

This is the strangest show, in that I've kept following it from beginning to the finale, without liking or cheering for a single character, lol. Vincent Cassel the actor is likeable but not his character.

Agreed that it opens to a post apocalyptic world. I'm curious what Bernard has learned but his reawakening is logical since he and Dolores are yin/yang and since she still exists, he must also exist to battle her.

 

[Totenkindly]

This is the strangest show, in that I've kept following it from beginning to the finale, without liking or cheering for a single character, lol. Vincent Cassel the actor is likeable but not his character.

Yeah, I am familiar with a number of Cassel films, he tends to be likable even when he's being a jerk, but Serac? Little sympathy for the boy who watched Paris go up in smoke.

Does it mean anything that I laughed and cheered when they showed the anomaly image early on, where black was threatening to subsume the entire circle? The chaos of free will is a bitch, isn't it?

Agreed that it opens to a post apocalyptic world. I'm curious what Bernard has learned but his reawakening is logical since he and Dolores are yin/yang and since she still exists, he must also exist to battle her.

Not sure if he would be battling her anymore because he realized at the end that they weren't enemies.

Not clear what he was doing, why it took so long (because in Season 2 the time they spent inside the system went by super quick in the real world, didn't it?), where Stubbs went and/or why no one removed Bernard from the motel or had it been abandoned? Or maybe the end of the world scenario meant it got abandoned? Again, another great visual but logistically does it even work? It's not even clear what he was MEANT to learn.

so even with a whittled down cast this season, it felt like most of the characters got the short end of the stick as far as time/subplots go.

Yeah, I felt very little this season for anyone. Except not wanting Dolores or Maeve to die. So I was happy to feel something with Bernard in the finale at least. But I didn't really care a ton. There was a lot more to care about in prior seasons.

 

[cascadeco]

I thought the first three episodes were quite good, but I don't think you're wrong about most of the later episodes.

I am going to watch the finale tonight!

My thoughts so far re season 3 are - 1. Didn't really care for the first few episodes; I was still mourning the loss of the 'magic' of the first season especially, though season 2 retained enough of it, and I think they just did an almost 180 on the story focus, which required my own mental shift. 2. My favorite episodes in the season were probably 3 through 6; I had done the shift and thought they were doing an ok job of building up a new story with a tiny bit of 'magic' brought back in. 3. I was back to feeling as if I were floating in air again with episode 7. Not knowing what was going on. They should have added more 'meat' and lengthened the season over more episodes.

I also have more respect for the show LOST now. I always loved it, but I now have new admiration that they managed to keep the magic (for me at least) for much longer than westworld could accomplish. I think Totenkindly is the one who mentioned it, but I think a big issue with season 3 is the lack of any in depth character analysis. I'm not invested in anyone anymore; I'm just watching action.

I am still fascinated with it and find it entertaining and good, but not like season one and to a lesser extent season two.

 

[Totenkindly]

yeah, LOST was a great original idea but they didn't really know where they were going long-term. SO they were building bridges out over the abyss like Wile E. Coyote one board after the next and then by Season 5 weren't sure to finish, so we got a Season 6 with answers not nearly as majestic as the question. But the characters were so striking, I think it was one of the first prime time shows to really use flashbacks as a regular character device / exploration and it showed -- because even when the series lost its way, people still typically love the characters and the characters linger with them.

(I see it now as a show where Lindelof was developing his writing chops; some of his later work might still possess a lot of ambiguity, like Watchmen and The Leftovers, but they handle it much better... the ambiguities suit the story, rather than just feeling like a failure of imagination.)

Not sure if the writing strike during Season 4 made the season worse, but definitely complicated things.



There are some character moments here in Season 3 that are among the best, like Bernard in the finale or Halores in Episode 3, but the season actually felt SHORT / cut short, like there wasn't enough space to really tell the story and honor the characters, versus Season 2 which felt extra-long at times. It's like they were trying to solve a problem with Season 2, but Season 3 actually needed the real estate.

 

[rav3n]

Yeah, I am familiar with a number of Cassel films, he tends to be likable even when he's being a jerk, but Serac? Little sympathy for the boy who watched Paris go up in smoke.

Does it mean anything that I laughed and cheered when they showed the anomaly image early on, where black was threatening to subsume the entire circle? The chaos of free will is a bitch, isn't it?

Not sure if he would be battling her anymore because he realized at the end that they weren't enemies.

Not clear what he was doing, why it took so long (because in Season 2 the time they spent inside the system went by super quick in the real world, didn't it?), where Stubbs went and/or why no one removed Bernard from the motel or had it been abandoned? Or maybe the end of the world scenario meant it got abandoned? Again, another great visual but logistically does it even work? It's not even clear what he was MEANT to learn.

so even with a whittled down cast this season, it felt like most of the characters got the short end of the stick as far as time/subplots go.

Yeah, I felt very little this season for anyone. Except not wanting Dolores or Maeve to die. So I was happy to feel something with Bernard in the finale at least. But I didn't really care a ton. There was a lot more to care about in prior seasons.

Okay, maybe Maeve was fine too, although there were times... As a generality, I wasn't a fan of Thani Newton in the past but she's done an impressive job as Maeve.

Don't forget evil Dolores/Hale, hence why Bernard must continue to exist. Am I the only one who finds Bernard irritating? There were so many points in time where had he taken action or specific actions, results would have been far more positive. He's useless besides being a plot device. Ugh.

 

[Totenkindly]

‘Westworld’ and ‘Devs’ Asked Big Questions. A Physicist Responds. - The New York Times

‘Westworld’ Finale Review: Episode 8 Makes It Hard to See the Beauty in All This Disarray — Spoilers
Review: Westworld season 3 finale offers shallow hope
Kind of harsh reviews but I totally get it


‘Westworld’ Season Finale: Showrunners on Dolores, End of the Series – Variety