2020 Democratic Party primary thread

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION]

[MENTION=37565]Maou[/MENTION]

So far these criticisms of unions seem to be general criticisms that could apply to many types of organizations. For instance, as another member already pointed out, the criticism that unions stifle productivity levels is generally true about a lot of non-union businesses as well. I worked in a factory in a non-union state and we also had to deal with quota levels, being told to essentially pace our work, even at times when we could've completed weekly work rates early. I also saw obviously less-qualified people sometimes promoted or given raises purely on the basis of seniority or how well they got along with the boss rather than any consideration of merit. These problems are in no way limited to unions, and singling them out as though they are whilst naively pretending non-union companies only care about innovation, maximum productivity and merit-based advancement is dishonest--it involves comparing one on the dirty reality and the other on the flowery ideal. It doesn't seem based in any objective comparison so much as is in a tendency to evaluate unions only on their worst aspects whilst evaluating non union business practices only on their best traits or their ideal operating models. I don't claim unions to be perfect or ideal, but at least evaluate them in a fair light rather than just repeating the same tired anti-union talking points replete with words and phrases such as "stifle growth", "innovation" etc.

 

[Jaguar]

Joe Biden says he's 'candidate for US Senate' in latest gaffe

You may as well link to FOX if you're going to post a right-wing, slander site like the NY Post. How the hell could you be a U.S. citizen and not know what that site has done in the last 20 years? And yet you actually complained about highlander's internet source on labor unions? The hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[ceecee]

This 'American' attitude has always baffled me. It's feels like an abused victim defending the abuser and claiming all the suffering they endured is due to their own fault. I understand where people are coming from when they rail against 'the sense of entitlement' on the left, and I can agree that a lot of people are simply useless whiners, but, I believe that everyone deserves a social safety net, so that one slip-up, one stroke of bad luck, doesn't actually ruin them and their family forever. Some companies don't care about giving you a safety net, and some corrupted unions (maybe not in the US -- I don't know -- but at least here) can be predatory, but that's only 'some', and you'll probably be able to find cases where unions have helped/hurt businesses and workers depending on where you look and what you want to prove. My concern about unions is that they enforce the 'us vs them' narrative, and they're not necessary in good companies that include employees in the 'us' (where workers never feel the need to unionize in the first place). But, not all companies have the workers' interest in mind, and in the majority of big companies, the shareholders they serve don't even have a clue about what the business is about. It's just another cash cow for them, only to be bled dry and discarded, sold off to the next idiot once it's no longer producing milk. In these cases, unions do help, because it's already a us vs them scenario.

Victim blame is the go-to explanation for a huge amount of people. You are poor because you did something to deserve it. You are sick because you did something to deserve it. You didn't recover from the last recession (also not their fault) because you did something to deserve it. I want worker representation on the board of every company in the US. I want collective bargaining to protect the rights of workers - not government regulations driven by political winds. I want health care and basic need provisions for every man woman and child in this country. That's not an us vs them narrative. The 1% doing whatever they want and profiting off the rest of the world absolutely is an us vs them narrative that so many seem to have no problem at all with.

 

[ceecee]

You may as well link to FOX if you're going to post a right-wing, slander site like the NY Post. How the hell could you be a U.S. citizen and not know what that site has done in the last 20 years? And yet you actually complained about highlander's internet source on labor unions? The hypocrisy is astounding.

It was a live speech and all kinds of people heard him, not my problem if you want to live in denial. You're just as bad as any Trump fan screaming fake news.

 

[Jaguar]

It was a live speech and all kinds of people heard him, not my problem if you want to live in denial. You're just as bad as any Trump fan screaming fake news.

And it's not my problem you don't know how many years he's been using that same line and more importantly, why. Give us an update from Breitbart when you have time, dear.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

There's also studies and papers suggesting that treating workers better and increasing their long term stakes in a company via pension plans, sharing, etc might actually contribute to higher levels of innovation. It only makes sense workers will go the extra mile and involve themselves in higher risk if they believe they have a greater stake in the company's future outcomes. Incentivization is a big part of economics, yet it baffles me when anti-union people completely disregard that factor in issuing their anti-union arguments.

 

[Nicodemus]

No it is not. And Unions do the same shit corporations do. They tell you to vite certain ways. It interfears with the free market. The only use they had was for safety, and that is on top of federal regulation. They served their purpose, and are obsolete. Now they just slow everything down, stifle competition, and create entitlement.

How can someone as ignorant as you be so confidently wrong?

 

[Jaguar]

And Unions do the same shit corporations do.

Historically, many unions have engaged in violence when companies and/or employees have resisted the union's attempt at controlling those who had no interest in joining. In many cases, I'd say unions can behave far worse. It's not as if Pfizer or DuPont would plot to kill my father or shoot at employees like a union did.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Typically companies that enact violence upon employees and consumers do so in a far more insidious manner. The violence is usually enacted as a result of a general disregard for the health and safety of those people.


Hamlet chicken processing plant fire - Wikipedia

The fire was North Carolina's worst non-mining industrial disaster and second worst industrial disaster overall.

Imperial's operators usually kept the doors of the chicken plant padlocked and the windows boarded, to prevent theft, vandalism or other criminal acts.[7] There had been no safety inspections by the state due to a lack of inspectors.[1] The poultry inspector visited the site daily and knew of the fire violations. One worker stated that much of the chicken meat was rotten,[7] and that the reason it was processed into chicken nuggets was to disguise the foul taste. He did not report these violations.[6][7] Some workers were made nervous by the locked doors but did not voice their concerns for fear of losing their jobs.

unchecked profit motives aren't just bad for consumers and employees, they're bad for business.

 

[á´…eparted]

There's also studies and papers suggesting that treating workers better and increasing their long term stakes in a company via pension plans, sharing, etc might actually contribute to higher levels of innovation. It only makes sense workers will go the extra mile and involve themselves in higher risk if they believe they have a greater stake in the company's future outcomes. Incentivization is a big part of economics, yet it baffles me when anti-union people completely disregard that factor in issuing their anti-union arguments.

If you pay attention to the pattern of people who are against it, the vast majority are cold, of dog-eat-dog mentality, bootstrappy, demeaning of sensitive people, machivellian, pointlessly harsh, ignorant to human suffering, lacking in general compassion. Basically, assholes in one form or another. They feel that its a virtue to fight amongst ourselves.

There's a reason nearly everyone in my life I have naturally befriended is aligned with left values; I don't tolerate assholes (note: there are assholes on the left too- different set of stuff).

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

If you pay attention to the pattern of people who are against it, the vast majority are cold, of dog-eat-dog mentality, bootstrappy, demeaning of sensitive people, machivellian, pointlessly harsh, ignorant to human suffering, lacking in general compassion. Basically, assholes in one form or another. They feel that its a virtue to fight amongst ourselves.

There's a reason nearly everyone in my life I have naturally befriended is aligned with left values; I don't tolerate assholes (note: there are assholes on the left too- different set of stuff).

I prefer left wing friends in real life, right wing friends in online gaming. That probably sounds like a joke but the super-competitive, dog-eat-dog approach can make for fun matches in a game, not so much in real life though! Plus it feels good to fake-murder someone with the screenname xTRUMPx2020x

 

[highlander]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION]

[MENTION=37565]Maou[/MENTION]

So far these criticisms of unions seem to be general criticisms that could apply to many types of organizations. For instance, as another member already pointed out, the criticism that unions stifle productivity levels is generally true about a lot of non-union businesses as well. I worked in a factory in a non-union state and we also had to deal with quota levels, being told to essentially pace our work, even at times when we could've completed weekly work rates early. I also saw obviously less-qualified people sometimes promoted or given raises purely on the basis of seniority or how well they got along with the boss rather than any consideration of merit. These problems are in no way limited to unions, and singling them out as though they are whilst naively pretending non-union companies only care about innovation, maximum productivity and merit-based advancement is dishonest--it involves comparing one on the dirty reality and the other on the flowery ideal. It doesn't seem based in any objective comparison so much as is in a tendency to evaluate unions only on their worst aspects whilst evaluating non union business practices only on their best traits or their ideal operating models. I don't claim unions to be perfect or ideal, but at least evaluate them in a fair light rather than just repeating the same tired anti-union talking points replete with words and phrases such as "stifle growth", "innovation" etc.

I don't think so. If you look at that study I posted, the fundamental points in it are sound even if you are to disagree with the right leaning way some of it is written. It resonates with me and what I have thought about unions for a long time. Unions initially came to prominence during the industrial revolution to protect the population from abuses like sweatshops and unsafe working conditions. It evolved to a point in the US where they were consorting with organized crime and as I said major auto companies in the US nearly went bankrupt because of their influence and the negative impacts of them became better understood. [MENTION=40267]ısoprene[/MENTION] can say whatever he wants about people who are against unions but the bottom line is that unions aren't as important as they once were and there is a reason for it. Denying reality doesn't change the facts.

Edit: And those things you mention do factor into performance reviews and promotions, etc. Yes, it matters if you get along with your boss. Yes, people who are less qualified sometimes get promoted many times for good reasons and others for not good reasons. That's life. I once thought I wasn't appreciated at my job, didn't like a performance review (thought I deserved better), so I quit my job and got a different one. Best damn thing I ever did.

 

[Nicodemus]

It resonates with me and what I have thought about unions for a long time.

And that, truth be told, is what really counts, right?

 

[highlander]

And that, truth be told, is what really counts, right?

It's just one person's opinion. Also, the works councils in Germany may be a bit different than unions in the US.

 

[Nicodemus]

It's just one person's opinion. Also, the works councils in Germany may be a bit different than unions in the US.

They are an entirely different kind of thing. But we also have 'Gewerkschaften' = unions.

 

[ceecee]

I don't think so. If you look at that study I posted, the fundamental points in it are sound even if you are to disagree with the right leaning way some of it is written. It resonates with me and what I have thought about unions for a long time. Unions initially came to prominence during the industrial revolution to protect the population from abuses like sweatshops and unsafe working conditions. It evolved to a point in the US where they were consorting with organized crime and as I said major auto companies in the US nearly went bankrupt because of their influence and the negative impacts of them became better understood. [MENTION=40267]ısoprene[/MENTION] can say whatever he wants about people who are against unions but the bottom line is that unions aren't as important as they once were and there is a reason for it. Denying reality doesn't change the facts.

Edit: And those things you mention do factor into performance reviews and promotions, etc. Yes, it matters if you get along with your boss. Yes, people who are less qualified sometimes get promoted many times for good reasons and others for not good reasons. That's life. I once thought I wasn't appreciated at my job, didn't like a performance review (thought I deserved better), so I quit my job and got a different one. Best damn thing I ever did.

You don't mention the decades long effort by the GOP and the SCOTUS to destroy unions.

Janus v. American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, Council 31 - SCOTUSblog

The Democrats are not as bad but they're getting there. Gotta have goals.

You simply make it sound as if the usefulness ran its course and oh, corruption with zero outside influence.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Like I said, a focus almost exclusively on the negative aspects.

Someone could just as easily cherry pick only the worst aspects of capitalism and business practices if they wanted to make a case against them.

 

[á´…eparted]

I don't think so. If you look at that study I posted, the fundamental points in it are sound even if you are to disagree with the right leaning way some of it is written. It resonates with me and what I have thought about unions for a long time. Unions initially came to prominence during the industrial revolution to protect the population from abuses like sweatshops and unsafe working conditions. It evolved to a point in the US where they were consorting with organized crime and as I said major auto companies in the US nearly went bankrupt because of their influence and the negative impacts of them became better understood. @ısoprene can say whatever he wants about people who are against unions but the bottom line is that unions aren't as important as they once were and there is a reason for it. Denying reality doesn't change the facts.

Edit: And those things you mention do factor into performance reviews and promotions, etc. Yes, it matters if you get along with your boss. Yes, people who are less qualified sometimes get promoted many times for good reasons and others for not good reasons. That's life. I once thought I wasn't appreciated at my job, didn't like a performance review (thought I deserved better), so I quit my job and got a different one. Best damn thing I ever did.

I'll just quote ceecee (this forum is really lucky to have her) cause she beat me to it, and besides I already pointed out in earlier posts the core reason Unions appear bad and ineffectual is because of the republicans decimating them for decades, and the moderate in more recent times have allowed it to happen.

You only look at the surface and connect the dots wrong because you are far to permissive of bad behavior where it counts, too harsh where it doesn't, and overall are ignorant to machiavellian people operate and where they frequent. You really don't get the human condition, and until you do you're going to miss the mark.

Also, for what it's worth I don't think your an asshole (I wouldn't be talking to you if I did).

You don't mention the decades long effort by the GOP and the SCOTUS to destroy unions.

Janus v. American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees, Council 31 - SCOTUSblog

The Democrats are not as bad but they're getting there. Gotta have goals.

You simply make it sound as if the usefulness ran its course and oh, corruption with zero outside influence.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Anyway, focusing on the negatives like involvement with organized crime is also misleading. It's targeting the misdeeds of a few people at the top of these organizations rather than looking at the whole picture. It would be like evaluating the stock market based solely on cases of past fraud.

 

[Jaguar]

Until the Janus decision, public employee unions for 41 years were allowed to charge fees to workers they represent even if the employee did not want to participate in a labor organization.

By all means, force people to do something they have no interest in. Great job, control freaks. Don't forgot to put a hand over freedom of choice's mouth. "Shhhh, just lie back and go with it."