2020 Democratic Party primary thread

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

IMO, if you don't support unions, you support corporations and them being able to do whatever the hell they want, plain and simple. It doesn't matter whatever token statements you give to being against neoliberalism.

You can't be anti-union and anti-corporate.

 

[ceecee]

No I'm not a supporter of unions. I think at one time, they were very important in this country - critical in fact. That day has passed. They nearly bankrupt the auto companies in the 80s. I don't see them doing much for education in the US

My dad got his apprenticeship in a factory when he was 14 years old in the UK. We don't do this kind of thing in the US. By the time he was 18, he was very skilled and in high demand with no worries whatsoever for a high paying job. The skills he acquired during his high school years stuck with him for his entire life. He didn't support unions either.

Your view is very common to people that have never benefited from unions. But the reason they were important at "one time" is that the American worker grasped the idea of his worth. When they stopped looking to unions and looking towards the government to protect their rights and jobs is when jobs themselves became less secure, lower paying without those benefits they once had.

Almost half of all Americans work in low-wage jobs - CBS News

The Frightening Rise In Low-Quality, Low-Paying Jobs: Is This Really A Strong Job Market?

The Job Quality Index is the economic indicator we've been missing — Quartz

When there is record profit across American job sectors and there is story after story and study after study like these ^^

JP Morgan Chase (JPM) earnings Q4 2019 crush estimates

Apple Reports Record Revenue and Profits for Q1 2020

https://www.morningstar.com/news/do...posts-record-profit-on-higher-spending-update

I'm less and less inclined to believe anyone with a traditional way of thinking when it comes to jobs.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Your view is very common to people that have never benefited from unions. But the reason they were important at "one time" is that the American worker grasped the idea of his worth. When they stopped looking to unions and looking towards the government to protect their rights and jobs is when jobs themselves became less secure, lower paying without those benefits they once had.

Almost half of all Americans work in low-wage jobs - CBS News

The Frightening Rise In Low-Quality, Low-Paying Jobs: Is This Really A Strong Job Market?

The Job Quality Index is the economic indicator we've been missing — Quartz

When there is record profit across American job sectors and there is story after story and study after study like these ^^

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

Apple Reports Record Revenue and Profits for Q1 2020

https://www.morningstar.com/news/do...posts-record-profit-on-higher-spending-update

I'm less and less inclined to believe anyone with a traditional way of thinking when it comes to jobs.

The best argument I can think of for taxing the rich more is the simple fact that wage increases have not caught up with productivity improvements, and it has been this way for a long time. Corporate news sources act mystified at this discrepancy and how it doesn't make sense in economic theory, but it's obvious to anyone with functioning brain cells that this is because the rich are pocketing all the money for themselves. This means that they'll continue to cheat people out higher wages and reap the sole benefit from improved productivity if left to their own devices.

And no, I don't think that's their right, unless you think a tapeworm has a right to live in your small intestine. If you don't want be thought of a parasite, stop supporting people and institutions that act like parasites. Given how much wealth redistribution is flowing upward, I absolutely support wealth redistribution in the other direction.

Actually, I'm being unfair to tapeworms. Tapeworms can't really survive outside of intestines, while rich people can definitely survive paying the people they profit off of more.

 

[highlander]

Your view is very common to people that have never benefited from unions. But the reason they were important at "one time" is that the American worker grasped the idea of his worth. When they stopped looking to unions and looking towards the government to protect their rights and jobs is when jobs themselves became less secure, lower paying without those benefits they once had. Almost half of all Americans work in low-wage jobs - CBS News The Frightening Rise In Low-Quality, Low-Paying Jobs: Is This Really A Strong Job Market? The Job Quality Index is the economic indicator we've been missing — Quartz When there is record profit across American job sectors and there is story after story and study after study like these ^^ JP Morgan Chase (JPM) earnings Q4 2019 crush estimates Apple Reports Record Revenue and Profits for Q1 2020 https://www.morningstar.com/news/do...posts-record-profit-on-higher-spending-update I'm less and less inclined to believe anyone with a traditional way of thinking when it comes to jobs.

Well what I would say is the artificial compensation increases and mediocrity driven by unions helped drive manufacturing jobs offshore. What's left is poor paying service jobs. Working at PotBellies and Walmart - things like that. My brother was in a union for a while in a factory. He said it was important not to work too hard because you upset the apple cart and make other people look bad. They had their quotas for productivity and you weren't supposed to surpass them. "Just do your job". Earlier in my career, I once started to take a printout off a printer in a data center that was right in front of me. I was told 'you cant do that,.'Only union workers were allowed to do this.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Working at PotBellies and Walmart - things like that. My brother was in a union for a while in a factory. He said it was important not to work too hard because you upset the apple cart and make other people look bad.

This may shock you to learn, but I've experienced the same thing in shitty non-unionized jobs. I've earned the ire of coworkers for putting in too much effort, and none of us were in a union.

 

[highlander]

This may shock you to learn, but I've experienced the same thing in shitty non-unionized jobs. I've earned the ire of coworkers for putting in too much effort, and none of us were in a union.

I believe you. In this case the quotas were in the union collective bargaining agreement.

 

[The Cat]

Well what I would say is the artificial compensation increases and mediocrity driven by unions helped drive manufacturing jobs offshore. What's left is poor paying service jobs. Working at PotBellies and Walmart - things like that. My brother was in a union for a while in a factory. He said it was important not to work too hard because you upset the apple cart and make other people look bad. They had their quotas for productivity and you weren't supposed to surpass them. "Just do your job". Earlier in my career, I once started to take a printout off a printer in a data center that was right in front of me. I was told 'you cant do that,.'Only union workers were allowed to do this.

The jobs have had with unions have been worlds away better than the jobs without. Sure there have been some environments where the union reps have been corrupt. But thats the exception not the rule. and even those places my dignity and sense of personal identity wasnt expected to be left outside the door. greed is the main thing that seems to drive manufacturing off shore. if they were allowed to run sweatshops here, they wouldnt go offshore.

 

[The Cat]

Ive literally worked in customer service jobs (non union) where we werent allowed to look people in the eyes, because the guests, like their servants to be a little beat down and submissive looking

 

[highlander]

You can't be anti-union and anti-corporate.

I am not anti corporate. They give people jobs. I think there are fundamental structural problems with the construct that somehow needs to be addressed or it will drive the world to ruin. Corporations dont just affect their employees. They affect everyone with their products, pollution, etc. As to unions, I tend to think in the long run, they do more harm than good. Maybe there can be more effective ways to have these things that dont lead to counterproductive dynamics in our country's competitiveness and drive work overseas and to Mexico. I just generally think they harm economic growth.

 

[Jaguar]

Obama demands South Carolina TV stations pull misleading ad attacking Biden

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Obama demands South Carolina TV stations pull misleading ad attacking Biden

Who are you to infringe on the freedoms of people that donate to Trump's campaign? It's theirs.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I am not anti corporate. They give people jobs. I think there are fundamental structural problems with the construct that somehow needs to be addressed or it will drive the world to ruin. Corporations dont just affect their employees. They affect everyone with their products, pollution, etc. As to unions, I tend to think in the long run, they do more harm than good. Maybe there can be more effective ways to have these things that dont lead to counterproductive dynamics in our country's competitiveness and drive work overseas and to Mexico. I just generally think they harm economic growth.

Well, I don't see any of that changing if unions aren't empowered and if politicians that actually want to do something about that aren't supported. I'm sorry, but I don't think President Buttigieg would do very much to alter the status quo. Obama didn't, and that's who he reminds me of. Maybe he could win the general, but he'd play things too safe and avoid addressing too many things that need to be addressed. I don't think that's what we need right now.

I get how it's appealing to want to get back to business as usual before Trump, but Hillary lost the election because she refused to acknowledge that business as usual wasn't working for many people. "America was already great!"


Of course, I'd vote for him if he won the nomination, barring some brokered convention horseshit.

 

[Tellenbach]

I'm surprised Warren hasn't brought up that Bloomberg quote about raising taxes on the poor so they can't spend it on sodas and pizzas. Bloomberg is right, but his paternal (I know what's best for you.) approach is annoying. Libertarians prefer that good behavior be taught at home. I suspect the K-12 curriculum doesn't have mandatory nutritional classes that inform kids of the evils of sugar and obesity.

I thought Bloomberg "won" the debate. He sounds the most reasonable of the bunch; Klobuchar was great as well, but no one thinks she has a chance.

 

[highlander]

It seems there is data to back up what I said

What Unions Do: How Labor Unions Affect Jobs and the Economy | The Heritage Foundation

 

[Jaguar]

Who are you to infringe on the freedoms of people that donate to Trump's campaign? It's theirs.

 

[ceecee]

It seems there is data to back up what I said

What Unions Do: How Labor Unions Affect Jobs and the Economy | The Heritage Foundation

Can you please do a better job of sourcing information? The Heritage Foundation is an right wing conservative, incredibly toxic think tank, what do you expect them to say? I'm not saying find a left wing site, I'm saying don't pick the most obviously biased against unions place available.

 

[Tellenbach]

New Yorkers Pay $150 Million to Prop Up Bad Teachers, Then Send Them Back Into the Classroom

Faced with ballooning costs and unable to fire many tenured educators, the Department of Education’s solution is to flood local classrooms with some 400 of the worst teachers in the education system. The consequences are predictably dire. In underperforming schools (particularly in poor areas) bad teachers could take the place of potential new hires, blocking the influx of qualified, motivated educators to a system that badly needs them.

So here we have a case of the Teachers Unions prioritizing seniority over performance and the students' future.

t’s a time-out the New York Department of Education has long denied even exists; yet it costs taxpayers $150 million each year in teachers’ salaries and benefits. The average rubber room idler earns $94,000 a year, or $10,000 more than the average teacher salary in the school system.

Ummm, I want that job - getting paid $94K to do crossword puzzles.

 

[The Cat]

Climates honestly on my mind more than the usual economic tangos. Who's talking about the planet gang?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Climates honestly on my mind more than the usual economic tangos. Who's talking about the planet gang?

I know a guy.

 

[The Cat]

I know a guy.

So none of the actual wrestlers then? I mean candidates.