2020 Democratic Party primary thread

[Jaguar]

If Biden wins Iowa, I'm accepting Trump's re-election as a given.

Congrats. I think you may be running at a 99.9% rate of misunderstanding the entire point of what I post in this forum. Look at it this way, at least no one could accuse you of being a big picture person.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Congrats. I think you may be running at a 99.9% rate of misunderstanding the entire point of what I post in this forum. Look at it this way, at least no one could accuse you of being a big picture person.

Nowhere did I say you were voting for Biden. I recognize that the post was meant to likely express the possibility that Buttigeig could come ahead tomorrow. However, being, at least deep down, a glass is half-empty type person (albeit one who tries to figure out what to do with the full portion of the glass), I'm articulating my concerns about a Biden victory.

 

[Jaguar]

Nowhere did I say you were voting for Biden. I recognize that the post was meant to likely express the possibility that Buttigeig could come ahead tomorrow. However, being, at least deep down, a glass is half-empty type person (albeit one who tries to figure out what to do with the full portion of the glass), I'm articulating my concerns about a Biden victory.

Because you continually poke holes in the paper cup and the liquid drains out onto the floor.
Then you slip on it, feet flyin' up in the air, singin' hey diddle-diddle with the kitty in the middle, you be swingin' like you just didn't care.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Because you continually poke holes in the paper cup and the liquid drains out onto the floor.

So sue me, I like to attach it to a flashlight to simulate constellations.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Let the games begin.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Judging from a far I just don't understand American media.



They slam Bernie over and over again while he is probably most pro-rich person on the ballot if you take a closer look. He is the only one that shows genuine interest in saving the working/middle class in practical sense. However all those people are both employees and consumers of what business empires of the rich have to offer. Therefore if working/middle class completely crashes under modern paradigms the "business as usual" is done. Huge amount of stuff is closing down exactly because local people are broke, what makes the problems even worse because all of this is snowballing. Therefore once the middle class is gone the country as we know it is done and with that probably it's currency as it is. If the bubble of all bubbles goes off no one in US will profit out that, in that case it will be "save what you can" in best case scenario. While some kind of civil war and general mess is actually more likely since too many are pissed about everything. You simply can't shit on a consumer over and over with expectations that everything will be fine. Middle class is possibly the greatest American invention ever and as such it basically defines the country. Therefore once you remove that and mechanisms that make it you can only get one more banana republic. (and I say all of that as the guy born in "banana republic conditions")



I live too far to be a Bernie bro and neither would I really label myself like that but this is really the only thing that makes any sense under the circumstances. Trump or status quo lead nowhere by empirical data.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Judging from a far I just don't understand American media.



They slam Bernie over and over again while he is probably most pro-rich person on the ballot if you take a closer look. He is the only one that shows genuine interest in saving the working/middle class in practical sense. However all those people are both employees and consumers of what business empires of the rich have to offer. Therefore if working/middle class completely crashes under modern paradigms the "business as usual" is done. Huge amount of stuff is closing down exactly because local people are broke, what makes the problems even worse because all of this is snowballing. Therefore once the middle class is gone the country as we know it is done and with that probably it's currency as it is. If the bubble of all bubbles goes off no one in US will profit out that, in that case it will be "save what you can" in best case scenario. While some kind of civil war and general mess is actually more likely since too many are pissed about everything. You simply can't shit on a consumer over and over with expectations that everything will be fine. Middle class is possibly the greatest American invention ever and as such it basically defines the country. Therefore once you remove that and mechanisms that make it you can only get one more banana republic. (and I say all of that as the guy born in "banana republic conditions")



I live too far to be a Bernie bro and neither would I really label myself like that but this is really the only thing that makes any sense under the circumstances. Trump or status quo lead nowhere by empirical data.

Bernie policies = greater velocity of money and business growth than most Republicans’ policies

 

[Virtual ghost]

Bernie policies = greater velocity of money and business growth than most Republicans’ policies

I don't even watch it just from that perspective. At one point of my life I was waking up at dawn and going to work in the actual production with machines that weight in tons. Therefore I know that this stuff isn't simple or physically easy, even when you are young. However in modern paradigms the guy that actually works the most concrete jobs is the garbage you should get get rid of. I mean exactly since it is hard and taxing you should have as much affordable/available quality healthcare possible. Otherwise you are damaging your own production and eventually competitiveness. Plus you need livable wages so that someone can actually buy the products or even have the desire to do this for a living.


Therefore if this "front line" crashes all of this will move completely into Asia and China will surely become next superpower. Consumer is the building block of capitalism, while that same consumer for the most part is working/middle class person. Therefore I am of impression that some in USA forgot the basics.

 

[Maou]

Bernie policies = greater velocity of money and business growth than most Republicans’ policies

Saying youre going to do something, isn't a policy. You could dismantle most of his policies by the sheer amount of change he wants to happen at once. They are unrealistic.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Saying youre going to do something, isn't a policy. You could dismantle most of his policies by the sheer amount of change he wants to happen at once. They are unrealistic.

I never saw it that way. He sets goals and they should be done over the years, I think no one is saying this will all happen over the night. Medicare for all will probably require 2 terms if not 3. Countries that have something like this were perfecting their systems for decades. I am not expert on Bernie and his base but I don't think anyone sane thinks this will all happen over night.


Much weaker countries did bigger U turns for the better than what he is proposing and therefore it probably can be done with good planning. The biggest problem in all this is in the fact that America isn't used to fundamental change.

 

[Maou]

I never saw it that way. He sets goals and they should be done over the years, I think no one is saying this will all happen over the night. Medicare for all will probably require 2 terms if not 3. Countries that have something like this were perfecting their systems for decades. I am not expert on Bernie and his base but I don't think anyone sane thinks this will all happen over night.


Much weaker countries did bigger U turns for the better than what he is proposing and therefore it probably can be done with good planning. The biggest problem in all this is in the fact that America isn't used to fundamental change.

The problem is the American system only allows for two terms. So you can safely say 98% of his policies will not be enacted purely based on the amount of change and infrastructure that needs to be created, voted on, and established as well as enforcing deadlines. Thats implying if its not opposed. Sanders himself is heavily opposed in his own party, and hated by Republicans. Even if he gets elected, he cannot do anything he wants to and everyone knows it. But whatever, keep donating your life savings Berniebros. You seen how it took Trump 4 years to do anything about Obamacare. Bernie wants to redo the entire system. That is DECADES of work.

So the best candidate to vote for are those who make minor tweats, not overhauls. Its more productive. Its easier to pass laws than remove them too. Trump was good at the minor tweaks, and its had a lot of impact. He was able to do more in 4 years, than most presidents in 8. Whether or not you agree with his actions is irrelevant.

 

[Jaguar]

They slam Bernie over and over again while he is probably most pro-rich person on the ballot if you take a closer look.

Holy shit. Wrong.

I know you don't live in the USA but when Bernie said "I don’t think that billionaires should exist" I knew I was dealing with a nut and he's anything but "pro-rich." He's not even pro-business and that's how a shitload of people took his comment, including me. I'm not a billionaire but I found his comment quite chilling. No billionaires. Think about that. No Apple. No Microsoft. No Starbucks coffee. If you're going to start those companies from scratch, I sure as shit hope you become a billionaire. What was he expecting - Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and Howard Schultz to make 10.00 per hour?

Before Sanders was a U.S. senator, a congressman, and a mayor of Burlington, he was an agitator and an activist for laborers in Vermont who didn’t have a steady paycheck until he was an elected official pushing 40 years old. Does that sound like someone who knows a damn thing about running a business? No. All he knows how to do is shake his hand in the air and shout. He's been doing it since the 60's.

So far, out of the whole bunch, Corey Booker was the only person with the balls to roll his eyes on the debate stage while people ranted about taxing wealth. Clearly he was tired of the ranting and he fired back, "We need to teach people how to create wealth." That's when I stood up and clapped. About goddamn time a Democrat wanted to empower people rather than divide a nation by telling people someone is to blame for their lot in life or shouting, "The middle class is getting killed!!!" Yeah? Then stop pulling the trigger.

This is anything but pro-rich:

Bernie Sanders estate tax increase: For the 99.8 Percent Act, explained - Vox

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

. Thats implying if its not opposed. Sanders himself is heavily opposed in his own party, and hated by Republicans.

Trump was despised by the Republican establishment at one time, as well. I expect if he were elected, he would lead a paradigm shift within the Democratic party, which is much needed. The days of "bipartisanship" set sail 30 years ago, and lots of those clowns act like it was something Trump personally came in and killed. They appear to have spent the past 30 years on quaaludes.

I do not think it would be good politics for Democratic congresspeople to fight tooth and nail the President who defeated Trump, something their darling Clinton was unable to accomplish. Furthermore, part of the reason I support Sanders over Warren is that I actually think he has much more political savvy. I think Warren thinks this is all about having facts, logic, and reason on your side; great things, to be sure, but all too frequently irrelevant in the arena of politics. I believe Bernie knows better than that. I think he has ways of handling Trump, for instance, beyond "they go low, we go high." Of course Trump will savage him, but guess what? He'd do that no matter who was the nominee. And furthermore, Republicans have been calling Democratic politicians socialists for 30 years now. I'm not convinced it would make much of a difference for someone to be nominated who actually is one.

Should Bernie lose the primary, his wing of the party will only become stronger, especially if Trump gets re-elected (much like he was strengthened in 2018 by AOC and so forth). I think Republicans are making a grievous error to underestimate Bernie, one that is reminiscent of what the Democrats did when Trump tossed his hat in the ring.

I think the biggest threat Bernie would face would actually be the media. I'm not even sure they would favor him over Trump in the general election.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Holy shit. Wrong.

I know you don't live in the USA but when Bernie said "I don’t think that billionaires should exist" I knew I was dealing with a nut and he's anything but "pro-rich." He's not even pro-business and that's how a shitload of people took his comment, including me. I'm not a billionaire but I found his comment quite chilling. No billionaires. Think about that. No Apple. No Microsoft. No Starbucks coffee. If you're going to start those companies from scratch, I sure as shit hope you become a billionaire. What was he expecting - Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and Howard Schultz to make 10.00 per hour?

Before Sanders was a U.S. senator, a congressman, and a mayor of Burlington, he was an agitator and an activist for laborers in Vermont who didn’t have a steady paycheck until he was an elected official pushing 40 years old. Does that sound like someone who knows a damn thing about running a business? No. All he knows how to do is shake his hand in the air and shout. He's been doing it since the 60's.

So far, out of the whole bunch, Corey Booker was the only person with the balls to roll his eyes on the debate stage while people ranted about taxing wealth. Clearly he was tired of the ranting and he fired back, "We need to teach people how to create wealth." That's when I stood up and clapped. About goddamn time a Democrat wanted to empower people rather than divide a nation by telling people someone is to blame for their lot in life or shouting, "The middle class is getting killed!!!" Yeah? Then stop pulling the trigger.

This is anything but pro-rich:

Bernie Sanders estate tax increase: For the 99.8 Percent Act, explained - Vox

These aren’t coherent arguments so much as they are strong sentiments.

As a money guy, you ought to be familiar with the concept of velocity of money.

Velocity of Money Definition

Returning more wealth to the lower classes is good for everyone, including those in the top 1 percent. Why, because more money changes more hands at a greater rate, thus meaning a healthier economy. That’s how you create more wealth all around. Otherwise you end up with stagnation due to less confident consumer base.

 

[Jaguar]

These aren’t coherent arguments so much as they are strong sentiments.

My post stands. If you missed the point of it, that's on you. Teach people to create wealth rather than lying in bed like a dead fuck and getting it "returned" to them.

 

[ceecee]

 

[Jaguar]

Some 63% of Americans called the Super Bowl an inappropriate platform for political candidates’ ads, according to a poll conducted online recently by Morning Consult for The Wall Street Journal.

No shocker there.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The problem is the American system only allows for two terms. So you can safely say 98% of his policies will not be enacted purely based on the amount of change and infrastructure that needs to be created, voted on, and established as well as enforcing deadlines. Thats implying if its not opposed. Sanders himself is heavily opposed in his own party, and hated by Republicans. Even if he gets elected, he cannot do anything he wants to and everyone knows it. But whatever, keep donating your life savings Berniebros. You seen how it took Trump 4 years to do anything about Obamacare. Bernie wants to redo the entire system. That is DECADES of work.

So the best candidate to vote for are those who make minor tweats, not overhauls. Its more productive. Its easier to pass laws than remove them too. Trump was good at the minor tweaks, and its had a lot of impact. He was able to do more in 4 years, than most presidents in 8. Whether or not you agree with his actions is irrelevant.

This is more like: the system doesn't allow you to vote for what you "should". Instead you have cosmetic changes every few years and other countries are passing you in all kinda of things.

Plus what people outside of USA think matters, since they are voting in for the people that want to do things less like USA and create a distance from the country. What places USA in the position of losing influence.

Holy shit. Wrong.

I know you don't live in the USA but when Bernie said "I don’t think that billionaires should exist" I knew I was dealing with a nut and he's anything but "pro-rich." He's not even pro-business and that's how a shitload of people took his comment, including me. I'm not a billionaire but I found his comment quite chilling. No billionaires. Think about that. No Apple. No Microsoft. No Starbucks coffee. If you're going to start those companies from scratch, I sure as shit hope you become a billionaire. What was he expecting - Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, and Howard Schultz to make 10.00 per hour?

Before Sanders was a U.S. senator, a congressman, and a mayor of Burlington, he was an agitator and an activist for laborers in Vermont who didn’t have a steady paycheck until he was an elected official pushing 40 years old. Does that sound like someone who knows a damn thing about running a business? No. All he knows how to do is shake his hand in the air and shout. He's been doing it since the 60's.

So far, out of the whole bunch, Corey Booker was the only person with the balls to roll his eyes on the debate stage while people ranted about taxing wealth. Clearly he was tired of the ranting and he fired back, "We need to teach people how to create wealth." That's when I stood up and clapped. About goddamn time a Democrat wanted to empower people rather than divide a nation by telling people someone is to blame for their lot in life or shouting, "The middle class is getting killed!!!" Yeah? Then stop pulling the trigger.

This is anything but pro-rich:

Bernie Sanders estate tax increase: For the 99.8 Percent Act, explained - Vox

Smartass answer: most rich people are millionaires so we are ok here.



You are right he said that but I really don't take all of that too seriously. Maybe it is my own local political culture but that kinds of statements should be be taken too seriously. Especially if they come from a populist. At this point it is pretty sure that the next president will be Biden, Bernie or Trump. Therefore out of those Bernie simply sounds as the best what there is on offer. What is actually a tragedy: that so big country doesn't have anything batter than the old guy that is with one foot in the grave and he is proposing stuff that other have for over 50 years. My logic was simply that if workers crash, rich will crash as well.



You are right people should be empowered but USA already has some of the lowest taxes out there and people still don't quite make it in many cases.

 

[Jaguar]

Maybe it is my own local political culture but that kinds of statements should be be taken too seriously.

Here's how it works:

1. Person grows up without a pot to piss in so you're loved by one party.
2. Person makes a lot of money and now they become the enemy of the party that once loved them.

Be a dreamer, just don't make your dream come true. Too much.

Isn't America great?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Here's how it works:

1. Person grows up without a pot to piss in so you're loved by one party.
2. Person makes a lot of money and now they become the enemy of the party that once loved them.

Be a dreamer, just don't make your dream come true. Too much.

Isn't America great?

As I said I am not Bernie bro and I don't hate rich by definition. But the fact is that someone outsourced quite a lot of good and stable jobs, someone is setting a media narrative, someone has gerrymandered the country, someone made healthcare and education pretty expensive, someone doesn't care much about drinking water and similar issues ... etc.


What altogether is exactly the opposite from the empowering you are talking about. The problem isn't that someone got rich, the problem is how someone got even richer. Of course, angry mob doesn't have accuracy or nerves to define details but this is the actual problem that bothers them. Therefore out of frustration they are saying "mean thing", what is simply how cornered people behave. All of this is a crisis that someone was producing for decades and now people will probably go with anything that offers hope. People are doing all of this exactly to empower themselves, but will it work remains to be seen.