2020 Democratic Party primary thread

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Oblivious.

 

[Virtual ghost]

It's interesting that you mention the past 20 years, rather then the last 3. Would you say, then, that Trump is not the only person responsible for declining American influence? What other presidential administrations would you hold responsible?

My initial impulse was to even go with 40 years but I thought that I should be gentle and focus more on the worst part of the problem. In my book just about everything since 2000 is just one big pile of mistakes stacked one on another and without Bush and Obama Trump's presidency would be pretty much impossible to ever come to life. He is simply their legacy, there is no doubt about it. In other words all 3 last presidents are/were pissing on public education for the most part and didn't stop "the idiocracy", they exported the concrete industry, they deregulated pretty much everything, they failed in environmental issues, they had too hawkish foreign policy. To me the idea that these 3 people are some kind of great opposites is somewhere between blind and ignorant. Just if the media are pushing that narrative that doesn't make it true.



Now regarding the foreign stuff you are asking me about. Many people are around the world have become sick of USA because this is the culture that claims to be superior to everyone, while in reality often it doesn't have much to show and under Bush that kinda became obvious to "everybody". To the most of us "outsiders" USA has become a country that leads selfish wars that are pushing refugees on our doors, the country which is causing the increased climate related damage within our borders by even denying climate problem, the country that doesn't choose a president by popular vote and lectures everyone on democracy, the country that pushes the idea of healthcare as an industry (at a direct cost of life), the country that thinks that guns in schools are a good idea ... etc. It is hard to pinpoint everything to just 3 men since the system as a whole is just "strange". Obama did somewhat mild out the reputation with his smooth talk but that didn't work in many cases and his foreign policy only added to the mess that Bush did in the Middle East. Plus when he was caught spying EU politicians the best he could do is "oops". Public debt under him completely exploded while at the same time the working class suffered a number of blows due to outsourcing and changes in laws. Plus on his watch the second world managed to do authoritarian comeback, what was probably preventable ... etc.




America simply put itself into the position that people lost pretty much all "enthusiasm" about it due to this "god given" attitude. Which wouldn't even be such a big deal if there were some concrete results to show. You have this story about the land of the free but your prison population is 2 to 3 times higher per capita than in open dictatorships. The greatest military power in the history that fights aliens in the movies and you can't even win Afghanistan for 18 years. The greatest economy in the world (with what is probably the largest public debt in the history of the planet). In my country few decades ago when a average wage was about few hundred $ a month and bombs were falling on the country we managed to have socialized medicine, but the greatest power ever simply can't do it. Or now it is wanted of us to deregulate this system because this is "un-capitalistic", while the fact that we live with much less stress in this regard and we don't have dead untreated people around doesn't seem to count for anything. However this large bag of nothing is now even harming my local pro-western politicians since they have little or nothing to show (and elections are on the door). The polls are showing that as much of 2/3 of people will go rather with ex communists or fascist leaning person over a current pro-American incumbent. One specialized poll even shows that the left voters will rather go with fascist leaning person than with pro-American person as a second choice. Which is because "alternative" people at least don't have a fetish on deregulation, marketizaton and public image .... and that is how "the empire" is melting away all over the map. It is a dream in which most have lost faith, I mean even good chunk of America lost the faith so just imagine how it is outside.



You just can't lecture or even pressure others when your results are complete shit, it simply doesn't stick. Therefore good chunk of the world thinks that USA is mostly a bunch of uneducated people for much longer than "the man himself" announced his campaign a few years ago (if they even think about America at this point). In other words he is just a symptom and a continuation of intellectual bankruptcy trend that started many decades ago.

 

[Jaguar]

I definitely recall Bush and Obama calling Mexicans and immigrants rapists and animals. No wonder Trump got in. Let's not kid ourselves. It's their fault.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Trump didn't just happen. The culture we created allowed someone like him to gain traction in the first place.

 

[Jaguar]

Yep. Them thar Dubya and Obommer feller should be held accuntable.

 

[Jaguar]

Elizabeth Warren released a plan to lower the cost of renting a home by 10%—here’s how

Stealing more money from people. Right?

Elizabeth Warren released a plan to lower the cost of renting by 10%


Right.

Want my watch, Lizzie? Should you become president, I can call you the Burglar-In-Chief.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

lol

 

[Virtual ghost]

I definitely recall Bush and Obama calling Mexicans and immigrants rapists and animals. No wonder Trump got in. Let's not kid ourselves. It's their fault.

He is simply the next "logical link" in the trend. If I remember correctly Bush era had some large scares regarding Muslims. Obama was polite but he droned quite a few civilian targets over the years and you do that to people to which you suspect are "rapists and animals". He opened quite a few doors in "foreign civilians don't matter" department. Also their policies crated the playground on which Trump started his trade wars and campaign.



However as I said their biggest problem is not actively fighting idiocracy. That was real screw up.
All of this is the process that is advancing for quite some time and can't be debated in simplistic manner.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Trump didn't just happen. The culture we created allowed someone like him to gain traction in the first place.

I'd argue that the fact that a large percentage of Americans had an authoritarian bent was made obvious to me during the Dubya years, and I'm surprised that this is now shocking news to everybody. I guess they were too busy waving flags back then to pay it much notice.

Perhaps it was less overtly racist then, but am I really surprised that the same people who cared so much about women under the Taliban and lack of freedom in those countries don't actually want any of those people living next door to them as refugees? No.

I suppose the major difference Trump makes is that, because of his language, it makes it impossible for anyone to deny, which evidently was occurring quite a bit before him.

 

[Jaguar]

He is simply the next "logical link" in the trend. If I remember correctly Bush era had some large scares regarding Muslims. Obama was polite but he droned quite a few civilian targets over the years and you do that to people to which you suspect are "rapists and animals". He opened quite a few doors in "foreign civilians don't matter" department. Also their policies crated the playground on which Trump started his trade wars and campaign.



However as I said their biggest problem is not actively fighting idiocracy. That was real screw up.
All of this is the process that is advancing for quite some time and can't be debated in simplistic manner.

I don't blame X and/or Y for Z's behavior. I blame Z.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

You just can't lecture or even pressure others when your results are complete shit, it simply doesn't stick.

This is how I feel with the so-called "pragmatic" people (who don't even care about understanding the voting habits of Americans as a whole because it contradicts their ideals of the way things should work) lecturing me about "electability."

They're the same people who thought it was impossible that Trump could win. Is there any sign that they have changed their methodology or revised their internal models? I haven't. They seem to depend a lot on idealistic ideas about the American people, which isn't something I'd ever put money on.

 

[Jaguar]

Self-described pragmatist, Amy Klobuchar: "The difference between a plan and a pipe dream is something you can actually get done."

 

[anticlimatic]

So many viable winners to choose from.......I can't wait to see who this year's Mitt Romney will be. If they go full Mitt Romney it will be Joe Biden on deck to lose. Warren is DOA. Sanders fans can look forward to the exact same experience Ron Paul fans had.

I bet Trump chills out a bit during his second term.

 

[anticlimatic]

Self-described pragmatist, Amy Klobuchar: "The difference between a plan and a pipe dream is something you can actually get done."

If I were left with the left end of that pipe dream, and nothing left of it to leave, I'd probably turn left out of the proverbial driveway until I had left it all behind.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't blame X and/or Y for Z's behavior. I blame Z.

By that logic parents should have 0% responsibility for what their kid does.



I am not even saying they made him deliberately, however the sum of their work created the conditions for the rise of Trump. What is the opportunity he fully used.
For example: you are store owner and one day your employees forget to lock the door before leaving and by the morning the store is made empty by a thief. Who will you blame more after watching the security camera ? The X and Y that didn't lock the door or Z the thief ? (just if Z is scum that doesn't excuse X or Y)

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

However as I said their biggest problem is not actively fighting idiocracy. That was real screw up.
All of this is the process that is advancing for quite some time and can't be debated in simplistic manner.

No President has really been willing to fight idiocracy since Carter's (in)famous "Crisis of Confidence" Speech. Granted, Carter wasn't addressing idiocracy, but citizens don't tend to react well to being lectured on how they are part of the problem, regardless of whether they actually are part of the problem.


For instance, I think part of the healthcare crisis in America is due to people taking poor care of themselves and eating garbage processed foods, but it would be political suicide for any politician to address this fact.



Regardless of whether or not you agree with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I think a large part of the backlash against her is due to some of the Green New Deal plan requiring people to take a long hard hard look at how their own lifestyle choices might contribute to the climate crisis.

 

[Jaguar]

By that logic parents should have 0% responsibility for what their kid does.

We weren't talking about kids. And you know it. (Although Trump does behave like a juvenile delinquent, but I digress.)

I am not even saying they made him deliberately, however the sum of their work created the conditions for the rise of Trump. What is the opportunity he fully used.
For example: you are store owner and one day your employees forget to lock the door before leaving and by the morning the store is made empty by a thief. Who will you blame more after watching the security camera ? The X and Y that didn't lock the door or Z the thief ? (just if Z is scum that doesn't excuse X or Y)

More people voted for Clinton than Trump. Imo, there's too much drama being made about his election, as if there was a big uprising of people when the numbers show no such thing. But had you been a U.S. citizen watching Trump in action during his campaign, it was nothing short of brainwashing. "They won't laugh at us anymore!!!!" (There wasn't anyone laughing at the people to begin with, but he sure wanted them to think so in order to get their vote.) This is a guy who would set a fire in public and then think he deserved credit in case he ever grabbed a hose and shot water at it.

 

[Virtual ghost]

This is how I feel with the so-called "pragmatic" people (who don't even care about understanding the voting habits of Americans as a whole because it contradicts their ideals of the way things should work) lecturing me about "electability."

They're the same people who thought it was impossible that Trump could win. Is there any sign that they have changed their methodology or revised their internal models? I haven't. They seem to depend a lot on idealistic ideas about the American people, which isn't something I'd ever put money on.

You don't have to explain everything to me. Here is my president that I already mentioned.

For which by each day it is becoming more and more obvious that she will lose to far right or ex communists (their candidate is fairly Trumpish and with "the president with the character" as a slogan). The whole nation is "Please, please give me a sign on anything so that I don't feel bad voting for you". But nothing is happening, since this the the work of the same PR "experts".

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

It's not about blaming other people for Trump's words and actions, it's about blaming them for allowing someone like him to be elected in the first place. I know the Hitler comparisons become tiresome after a while, but on a similar token, while we might not blame the German people for Hitler's actions, we can still assign responsibility to them for allowing him to come to power in the first place.

We are largely responsible for the reality TV celebrating culture that allowed Trump to keep himself relevant and in the public eye long after he should've faded as a footnote of the 80s. This is same the culture that makes celebrities out of people who are famous for being famous, i.e. Kardashians or any other Z-lister who makes a career out of having their life turned into frontpage news or primetime TV drama. It was easy for a self-promoter like Trump to market himself and stay relevant into the 21st century. This is the same culture in which people have seriously considered Dwayne Johnson, Oprah, and Kid Rock to be viable political candidates.

 

[Virtual ghost]

We weren't talking about kids. And you know it. (Although Trump does behave like a juvenile delinquent, but I digress.)

I am just glad that you got the hint.
The thing is not everyone has a self control and then responsibility falls on others as well, especially if it is well known that the person has "issues". Sometime "I just blame at face value" isn't good enough.

More people voted for Clinton than Trump. Imo, there's too much drama being made about his election, as if there was a big uprising of people when the numbers show no such thing. But had you been a U.S. citizen watching Trump in action during his campaign, it was nothing short of brainwashing. "They won't laugh at us anymore!!!!" (There wasn't anyone laughing at the people to begin with, but he sure wanted them to think so in order to get their vote.) This is a guy who would set a fire in public and then think he deserved credit in case he ever grabbed a hose and shot water at it.

But the bottom line is what made all of those millions vote for him ? Perhaps the Russians did tilt the game somewhat but that still can't really explain how many millions of adult people voted. In my book you can't really explain that without taking a look at what Bush and Obama did (which stereotypically represent both parties fairly well). If you take a look at global history people like Trump pretty much always show up when establishment messes up big time and everything suggests that this is exactly what happened here. Cause and effect.



Btw I was here during whole 2016 and I watched plenty of stuff on the issue as well as the whole election night in live (which ended something like 7AM my time). I got into this topic since I realized that all of this will turn my part of the world upside down and as posts in my thread suggest this is exactly what happened. I lack "boots on the ground" experience but with internet you can still see pretty much everything and access all content on the issue average American can access.