[NT] Politically Correct

[Totenkindly]

There is a sort of political correctness associated with the LGBT movement which is I think IS really insidious, because a lot of the time it seems to give people licence for the worst kind of behaviour, outbursts, violence, aggression, all explained away because people were offended and I DO think that's wrong. Mind you there's a lot that I think is wrong with that movement and a lot of its tributary movements, the fact alone that its so, so easy for even normally sympathetic or at least indifferent people to fall afoul of their complex outrages kind of tells all.

I don't agree with the extremes that I've sometimes witnessed in some LGBT factions, but your lump description rather overlooks the point that using proper pronouns (as one example) is simply common courtesy. If people followed the "Don't be a douchebag" rule more regularly, some of those complaints wouldn't need to be issued. The TERFS and religious zealots indulge in their fair amount of outbursts.

I wish i had a dime for every time you bitch about LGBT folks or Mole complains about the Catholic church -- the lifeguards would be pumping a mountain of cupronickel out of my lungs, whee I'm fabulously well off!

 

[Lark]

No. I'm talking about the people that proudly claim - I'm not politically correct - as if it's some kind of skill. What this actually means is - decency and civility are not something I'm going participate in and I don't have to. I have a champion and an entire group of people that share this opinion and there is safety in numbers, I'm not putting myself out there without backing.

The alt right have nothing to do with political correctness conversations.

Really? Because they sound exactly like what you're talking about.

Anyway, we'll not agree on that, maybe you want to give them a chance, I think they're just the same shit on a different day from the same source.

 

[Lark]

I don't agree with the extremes that I've sometimes witnessed in some LGBT factions, but your lump description rather overlooks the point that using proper pronouns (as one example) is simply common courtesy. If people followed the "Don't be a douchebag" rule more regularly, some of those complaints wouldn't need to be issued. The TERFS and religious zealots indulge in their fair amount of outbursts.

I wish i had a dime for every time you bitch about LGBT folks or Mole complains about the Catholic church -- the lifeguards would be pumping a mountain of cupronickel out of my lungs, whee I'm fabulously well off!

You could be rich!

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Anti-PC culture is simply political correctness for the right/conservatives. Sort of invalidates their bitching on the subject but they had to invent something to rail against and scream into the void about.

They don't hold themselves to the same standard on the question of whether or not people should protect their feelings. It took a bit for that to truly become apparent to me. (It was a bit difficult for someone like myself who tried hard to stay out of the loop at the time to understand all the shifts in the conversation that were taking place around the time of Gamer Gate.) It's increasingly clear that there's not really any philosophy any of them have, it's just all about their feelings, and they're rather ugly feelings at that which personally would not be something I would want to hold onto for myself.

 

[Lark]

They don't hold themselves to the same standard on the question of whether or not people should protect their feelings. It took a bit for that to truly become apparent to me. (It was a bit difficult for someone like myself who tried hard to stay out of the loop at the time to understand all the shifts in the conversation that were taking place around the time of Gamer Gate.) It's increasingly clear that there's not really any philosophy any of them have, it's just all about their feelings, and they're rather ugly feelings at that which personally would not be something I would want to hold onto for myself.

That's a fair commentary there, I dont disagree, also about the whole Gamer Gate thing. I missed that myself too and when I read back on it couldnt get the complete story, I possibly got side tracked a lot on that point.

Also not everyone actually thinks of the same thing when they think of Gamer Gate, some people think it refers to stuff happening much later when people like James Rolfe slated the female recast of Ghostbusters, or rather did not slate it for that reason but slated Hollywood's repeatedly rebooting older material. Not him himself, because I follow his stuff and he, wisely, didnt bother to get into it, but his friends took it up, at least they commented afterwards about it. By then some really awful factions had pitched in from every side.

Although that wasnt even Gamer Gate, not what I recall or know of as Gamer Gate, while it did expose a lot of crap that was pretty awful it didnt show either "side" in a great light.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

That's a fair commentary there, I dont disagree, also about the whole Gamer Gate thing. I missed that myself too and when I read back on it couldnt get the complete story, I possibly got side tracked a lot on that point.

Also not everyone actually thinks of the same thing when they think of Gamer Gate, some people think it refers to stuff happening much later when people like James Rolfe slated the female recast of Ghostbusters, or rather did not slate it for that reason but slated Hollywood's repeatedly rebooting older material. Not him himself, because I follow his stuff and he, wisely, didnt bother to get into it, but his friends took it up, at least they commented afterwards about it. By then some really ait's cwful factions had pitched in from every side.

Although that wasnt even Gamer Gate, not what I recall or know of as Gamer Gate, while it did expose a lot of crap that was pretty awful it didnt show either "side" in a great light.

I feel like one side was sending people death threats, and the other was just criticizing video games. Honestly, it's clear to me which side sounds more "triggered." If I'd known that was going on I probably would have just shut up with my critiques about contemporary feminist discourse because I didn't understand the context of why things got so heated. I was reacting to something without bothering to consider why people felt that way.

 

[ceecee]

They don't hold themselves to the same standard on the question of whether or not people should protect their feelings. It took a bit for that to truly become apparent to me. (It was a bit difficult for someone like myself who tried hard to stay out of the loop at the time to understand all the shifts in the conversation that were taking place around the time of Gamer Gate.) It's increasingly clear that there's not really any philosophy any of them have, it's just all about their feelings, and they're rather ugly feelings at that which personally would not be something I would want to hold onto for myself.

Why else would they scream about facts and feelings so regularly? Perhaps to convince themselves more than anyone else. It's also the reason they are so willing to go to great lengths to attempt to "explain" their beliefs and views. But eventually, every one of them does something stupid then they wonder how it went so wrong for them and their "marketplace of ideas".

 

[Lark]

Why else would they scream about facts and feelings so regularly? Perhaps to convince themselves more than anyone else. It's also the reason they are so willing to go to great lengths to attempt to "explain" their beliefs and views. But eventually, every one of them does something stupid then they wonder how it went so wrong for them and their "marketplace of ideas".

Yeah, I've seen that on this forum even, who was it that used to always insist on outlining that they were not discussing or debating, just explaining why they were right?

It was something along those lines anyway. A lot of these highly charged, high conflict situations seem to draw in people who're miserable like flies to rotting refuse.

 

[Coriolis]

Some of the posts in this thread have crossed the line into political commentary (e.g. comments on what the government should and should not be doing). Further posts of that nature will be removed. Please keep it between the lines.

 

[Lark]

Some of the posts in this thread have crossed the line into political commentary (e.g. comments on what the government should and should not be doing). Further posts of that nature will be removed. Please keep it between the lines.

#TufLovin'

Y'all.

 

[Oberon]

I have been called out as being PC and then I have also been called out as being not PC at all. It just depends if I have my shields up. What I really believe is that the world is a cold place and a guy has to know how to hold his purse, or, if you're a woman, your sword. Also, I think I should be able to use the woman's bathroom when I feel like I'm a woman.

 

[EcK]

I don't agree with the extremes that I've sometimes witnessed in some LGBT factions, but your lump description rather overlooks the point that using proper pronouns (as one example) is simply common courtesy. If people followed the "Don't be a douchebag" rule more regularly, some of those complaints wouldn't need to be issued. The TERFS and religious zealots indulge in their fair amount of outbursts.

I wish i had a dime for every time you bitch about LGBT folks or Mole complains about the Catholic church -- the lifeguards would be pumping a mountain of cupronickel out of my lungs, whee I'm fabulously well off!

The issue is the transformation of language as to change how we think. ie: you said 'proper pronouns', making it sound like it's a objective assessment when it isn't. It's a personally preferred pronoun. Two very different things. Calling it a 'proper pronoun' is akin to calling my favorite color the 'proper color' with a straight face.
And I agree that ultimately it's no big deal to call people whatever they want to be called, and yeah i understand some people might have gender dysphoria or however else you want to call it, I have no issue what so ever with that, just discussing the choice of terms and in general how people adopt buzz words even though they don't necessarily make sense.

 

[EcK]

What is the difference between political correctness and common courtesy?

I am content if people observe actual correctness - is what they are saying real and true, along with utility - is there some constructive purpose to be served by saying it. Insults and slurs are neither a poison nor a vaccine. They are litter in the park, and while I can make use of the park in their presence, I prefer they be gone.

The issue is that thought is structured around language. Limiting speech ultimately limits thought.
I understand the utility of 'smoothing' conversation as to promote fruitful communication, but taken to an extreme is does have just as many downsides as a shouting match, communication becomes a white noise concerto of poorly articulated ideas based on unfounded assumptions.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Insults aren't my first line but I don't really believe in strict political correctness. Actually I grew up on watching politiacally incorrect humor on TV, "Which group is shark's favorite meal ?" style.

 

[Coriolis]

The issue is that thought is structured around language. Limiting speech ultimately limits thought.
I understand the utility of 'smoothing' conversation as to promote fruitful communication, but taken to an extreme is does have just as many downsides as a shouting match, communication becomes a white noise concerto of poorly articulated ideas based on unfounded assumptions.

That violates the requirement for actual correctness.

 

[Lark]

Insults aren't my first line but I don't really believe in strict political correctness. Actually I grew up on watching politiacally incorrect humor on TV, "Which group is shark's favorite meal ?" style.

Communist, sharks prefer communists.

 

[Lark]

The issue is the transformation of language as to change how we think. ie: you said 'proper pronouns', making it sound like it's a objective assessment when it isn't. It's a personally preferred pronoun. Two very different things. Calling it a 'proper pronoun' is akin to calling my favorite color the 'proper color' with a straight face.
And I agree that ultimately it's no big deal to call people whatever they want to be called, and yeah i understand some people might have gender dysphoria or however else you want to call it, I have no issue what so ever with that, just discussing the choice of terms and in general how people adopt buzz words even though they don't necessarily make sense.

I think those movements are as capable of creating their own dogmas as older ones were but they would say that they are dogmas or recognise them as such.

There in lies the rub.

Also, what proportion of the population is liable to experience those sorts of issues? Accordingly should you generalise from their experience? Isnt that the same as suggesting that legislations should govern the behaviour of believers and non-believers alike?

I think its a good idea to have services and reach accomodations of a minority-majority relations kind with these communities or sub-cultures, I like diversity, although the problem arises when it goes beyond that, either intentionally or unintentionally, consciously or unconsciously. Just as I do not expect them to try and spread my values and norms, I dont think that I should have to spread theirs.

It could be construed as its own version of political correctness but I personally would like a total refocus upon the universal as opposed to the particular, including minority or marginalised particulars, so everyone can travel on good roads, receive the same education, benefits and health services.

 

[Lark]

The issue is that thought is structured around language. Limiting speech ultimately limits thought.
I understand the utility of 'smoothing' conversation as to promote fruitful communication, but taken to an extreme is does have just as many downsides as a shouting match, communication becomes a white noise concerto of poorly articulated ideas based on unfounded assumptions.

Do you think that political correctness is just another way of describing the social engineering and newspeak or doublespeak of big brother in Orwell's 1984?

Sometimes I think its less complicated than that, sometimes I think its more like the in group-out group dynamics of US high schools, Low Tech Red Neck had some good points about that once upon a time, it could be the revenge of the nerds.

Whatever occurs in that context could wind up influencing the wider US social context and then in turn the wider social context in at least the english speaking world (the rest of the world for as long as the US remains world hegemon).

 

[EcK]

That violates the requirement for actual correctness.

Well yes, but political correctness is just as much of a nonsense word. There is nothing 'correct' about it, if anything it's generally further removed from a good description of reality than the terms it purposes to replace.

 

[Virtual ghost]

That is so Eurovision, or possibly like the TV show Euro-Trash.

You're a bunch of mad eejits, are you what?

I will make brief summary for you on that issue with another album cover.

eng - nonsense collective