[ISFJ] ISFJ's Inflexibility

[Totenkindly]

I can see why some might class the friend as a closet ISTJ, since she is exuding a coldness that is usually more indicative of T than F, but I do not know enough of her past and present life situation to make a confident statement. Depending on the stresses that they have lived under, ISFJs can easily become cold and cynical and bitter.

Today she called and wanted to know everything I was doing the entire weekend. It's like she's becoming possessive of me. I'm the most independent person you'll ever meet and there's no way in hell that I want someone hanging all over me and telling me what to do.

ISFJ (females at least) are notorious for this... but often a mix of good and bad. Part of it is possessiveness, part of it is the introversion which prevents them from latching onto TOO many people (so the few people that they DO have become the recipients of all of their attention), and part of it is because she feels like she has a relationship with you, and a relation is built of surface details rather than underlying things... so she will quiz you about all of the details you find tedious to recount and sound as if she is being nosy.

She is probably being nosy as well. That's a problem -- it is usually a mix of good and bad.

If you feel like letting the cork ricochet out, you can just set some boundaries for her. They might upset her; they might also keep her out of your face, though. The more concrete the boundaries, the better; asking her to decide on her own every day what an appropriate level of contact is will confuse her and not satisfy you. ISFJ women very much seem to appreciate definitive statements of what please other people and what does not please them, so they can accommodate if possible.

 

[Zhash]

I do not think she is an ISFJ.
She is an ISTJ with a high L (L for Lie) scale.

The L is a personality continuum for denial, accomodation and self deception.

When a female ISTJ with a high L scale does the MBTI test she is bound to end as an ISFJ.

As this is expected of her.
An accomodation.

This is fascinating! I had her take MBT1 and she scored ISFJ, however, she doesn't come across as having a strong Fe. I've discussed this with a NT friend that has a ISFJ husband and she tells me that he doesn't come across as a stong extraverted feeler, either. She tells me that he's very controlling and has a difficut time giving warmth and love. You would think they both had Fi instead of Fe in their secondary position. Perhaps it is the way they were socialized. I wonder if someone could explain it to me.

 

[Totenkindly]

This is fascinating! I had her take MBT1 and she scored ISFJ, however, she doesn't come across as having a strong Fe. I've discussed this with a NT friend that has a ISFJ husband and she tells me that he doesn't come across as a stong extraverted feeler, either. She tells me that he's very controlling and has a difficult time giving warmth and love. You would think they both had Fi instead of Fe in their secondary position. Perhaps it is the way they were socialized. I wonder if someone could explain it to me.

Without going into it much, I think the "control" issue is an important consideration.

Fe can be used to control as well as to display emotions. And it would be interesting to see the other function ranges as well.

(Can you get them to take the eight-function test?)

 

[Zhash]

Without going into it much, I think the "control" issue is an important consideration.

Fe can be used to control as well as to display emotions. And it would be interesting to see the other function ranges as well.

(Can you get them to take the eight-function test?)

Come to think of it, YES! Fe "IS" used to control, too. You know the old saying, "Kill people with kindness" and that can be manipulative and controlling, too.

BTW-I could barely get her to take the simple test. She can't calm herself down enough to answer the questions. She isn't really interested in all of this stuff. Too abstract for her.

 

[rivercrow]

The dominant is still Si, in both ISTJ and ISFJ. So Fe will appear very different for them than for an ExFJ.

 

[Totenkindly]

Come to think of it, YES! Fe "IS" used to control, too. You know the old saying, "Kill people with kindness" and that can be manipulative and controlling, too.

Definitely. In fact, one conjecture is that the ISFJ policy of "serving others" and/or "moving towards" them (similar to an Ennegram Two) is that it's a control mechanism.

As other example, INTPs "move away" from others typically -- thus controlling the interaction by avoiding it. ENTJ's "move against" others and directly try to control others by conquering/dominating. ISFJs wield control over a relationship by appeasing the other person and thus avoiding criticism or judgment of themselves.

(This isn't to say that the desire to please is not genuine, and I think mature ISFJ's can use their ability to mother and provide for others in ways that are not manipulative. But we all tend to use our strengths early on in life to manipulate the world in order to get what we want or to feel safe...)

 

[runvardh]

I've used manipulation in order to keep my mother from getting mad at me being too cold and distant.

"do what she says and you'll eat tonight..."

 

[Yomama99]

I got an ISFJ mother. All I gotta say about ISFJ is that they're natural housewives, not sure about ISFJ men. They love to cook and clean they will try to control you in passive-aggressive ways. They will have crazy wild mood swings if they're not doing what they love doing best in...COOKING AND CLEANING and being PRAISED FOR IT as well.

I also had an ISFJ girlfriend. I will never date another ISFJ ever again even though most of them are good looking.

 

[heart]

I got an ISFJ mother. All I gotta say about ISFJ is that they're natural housewives, not sure about ISFJ men. They love to cook and clean they will try to control you in passive-aggressive ways. They will have crazy wild mood swings if they're not doing what they love doing best in...COOKING AND CLEANING and being PRAISED FOR IT as well.

Yes, this is my friend, I do love to go over to her house and have her fuss over me. Aside from some of her rigid conservative views that I just avoid discussing with , she's mostly a very lovely person. I don't think she is T, I think rather that certain stresses in her life, one being her over controlling mother, cause her to sometimes come out with her shadow traits.

It is fascinating to see the shadow come out in another person. I wish I could see my own more closely. The only time I really can see it is waking up briefly at night, I will have a flash of something I did or said during that day and cringe and think "why did I do that?"

 

[Totenkindly]

I also had an ISFJ girlfriend. I will never date another ISFJ ever again even though most of them are good looking.

Sometimes.

I have seen them range in three directions:

1. They focus solely on serving others and "doing things/chores" and don't pay much attention at all to their appearance. (Some of the older ISFJ's are this way and look very homely and tend to wear whatever they wore in the past.)

2. They totally follow the "cute sentimental trend of the day" even if it's not a very good trend (like the Teddy Bear sweatshirts and pink-pink-pink-everything popular more in the late 80's and early 90's). Sentimental and cutesy is key here. The "country style" is one of those styles. These ISFJs also tend to use hearts to dot their i's.

3. They can be very stylish and look very very put together -- every hair is in the right place, all the makeup is immaculate, the clothes are very sensible but crisp and catchy ... the "attractive professional woman." One ISFJ woman I know (who eventually became a beautician) could make herself look good even just wearing sweatpants. She was amazing that way!

 

[Nighthawk]

I'm married to an ISFJ ... and I'm lucky in that she is fairly flexible. Perhaps this is due to living with me all these years ... I don't know. She is open to a lot of the things I like to do, and I try to reciprocate with helping her around the house ... which I know is very important to her. Yes, she does have some set ways that are very difficult to circumnavigate, but I have a few core values of my own. I don't feel trapped with her, and we do not argue (too much ). Sometimes, however, I feel that she is really an INFJ. Go figure.

 

[wildcat]

Definitely. In fact, one conjecture is that the ISFJ policy of "serving others" and/or "moving towards" them (similar to an Ennegram Two) is that it's a control mechanism.

As other example, INTPs "move away" from others typically -- thus controlling the interaction by avoiding it. ENTJ's "move against" others and directly try to control others by conquering/dominating. ISFJs wield control over a relationship by appeasing the other person and thus avoiding criticism or judgment of themselves.

(This isn't to say that the desire to please is not genuine, and I think mature ISFJ's can use their ability to mother and provide for others in ways that are not manipulative. But we all tend to use our strengths early on in life to manipulate the world in order to get what we want or to feel safe...)

Yes.
Caring is the other word for control. And manipulation is the other word for love.
A semantic confusion only?

 

[Zhash]

Sometimes.

I have seen them range in three directions:

1. They focus solely on serving others and "doing things/chores" and don't pay much attention at all to their appearance. (Some of the older ISFJ's are this way and look very homely and tend to wear whatever they wore in the past.)

2. They totally follow the "cute sentimental trend of the day" even if it's not a very good trend (like the Teddy Bear sweatshirts and pink-pink-pink-everything popular more in the late 80's and early 90's). Sentimental and cutesy is key here. The "country style" is one of those styles. These ISFJs also tend to use hearts to dot their i's.

3. They can be very stylish and look very very put together -- every hair is in the right place, all the makeup is immaculate, the clothes are very sensible but crisp and catchy ... the "attractive professional woman." One ISFJ woman I know (who eventually became a beautician) could make herself look good even just wearing sweatpants. She was amazing that way!

Jennifer,

You absolutely crack me up! This is sooooo true.

 

[Totenkindly]

Caring is the other word for control. And manipulation is the other word for love. A semantic confusion only?

"It's all about the mo-ti-va-tions, bay-bee...."

Sometimes I wonder...

 

[heart]

.

BTW-I could barely get her to take the simple test. She can't calm herself down enough to answer the questions. She isn't really interested in all of this stuff. Too abstract for her.

I have been thinking about this thread and the other one where the comments were made that N types are too judgemental of S types.

This statement above reminds me of something that causes me to feel hurt about some people, relatives and in-laws who happen to be S types (not saying all S types are like that). They make snap judgements about me based on their own perceptions and then they won't discuss things like MBTI so that we both could learn more about each other and come to better understandings of each other. They took the test and found it rather boring for the most part. I also have had to learn that they apparently cannot help the lack of interest, yet at the same time it still feels cold to me to not want to learn more about self and others but then that is my viewpoint limiting my understanding of the world, I can see that in myself and yet it is still a major frustration to me.

It did help me to learn from MBTI that they are not pretending when they don't get metaphors. I used to think some of them were playing games when they did that. Now I know better and while it is frustrating to always have to be watching what I say and how I say it because I know some of my communication patterns irritate them and cause them to shut down to what I am saying, I still do it. The thing is it would be nice if they cared enough to learn something like that about me to help our communications but then we're back to the thing about them not being interested in things that are too abstract.

I wish they were more interested in learning that if I do not pepper my speech with lots of flowery Fe it does not mean I am mad or if I am not all super bubbly it does not mean I am depressed. It would help if they could learn that when I am tired, I am more introverted and it is nothing to do with my feelings about them and in fact when they guilt and push at me it just exhausts me more. Instead I find myself having to put those things into my behavior in a manner that is not my usual because it smooths the way when dealing with them, but alas it is also exahausting to me.

When my people who happen to be SJ start getting too controlling or pushing into my boundaries, I always try to remember that they have a driving need to feel that they are *helping* someone even though their actions are not what the person needs at the time. I have to tell myself that when they ignore my requests for how I would like to be helped when they do this, that it is because they feel they know best for me. It does help me to endure them and to gently tell them when to back off instead of seeing it as a hostile gesture on their parts. That has been a real help.

It would be nice if it were a two way street and we came to more of a meeting in the middle in regards this but I have to accept that it just is not in their nature to be curious about the deeper aspects of differences between people. They have their way of communicating and they think it is the right way and I guess if I were totally able to be sure of that in myself and had so much cultural support for the idea that my way was the best way I would not dig deeper either.

 

[Yomama99]

I have an ISFJ mother, dedicated and caring on one side, manipulative and controlling on the other side. Do not believe their "passivity" = "easy to control" They're very aggressive. I've also dated an ISFJ and never again.

 

[Arandur]

Argh, my mother is ISFJ and even though she can appear flexible in some things, once she gets an idea stuck in her head, it's not going anywhere. Ever. :steam:

 

[FemMecha]

I also had an ISFJ girlfriend. I will never date another ISFJ ever again even though most of them are good looking.

I'm sorry, but this thread is full of crazy crap. I don't know where to begin, so i'll just end with...

Don't forget that Vin Diesel is likely an ISFJ, so watch it everyone or he'll make martyrs of y'all.

 

[Totenkindly]

Argh, my mother is ISFJ and even though she can appear flexible in some things, once she gets an idea stuck in her head, it's not going anywhere. Ever. :steam:

One year my ISFJ mother heard me say "thank you" for the purple shirt she gave me for Christmas, "because I don't yet have any purple shirts." And suddenly she heard it as, "my favorite color is purple." And for six years after that, every Christmas and birthday and whatever, I received a purple article of clothing.

The royal curse was thwarted only when I finally blurted out one year that purple was NOT my favorite color, nor HAD it ever been, and I would be very happy to receive some clothes in some other color.

Still... it is part of her drive to make others happy.

 

[girlnamedbless]

I live with my ISFJ mother. Yes, she may be a little inflexible at times but it's too easy to convince her and get my way. (That sounds bad, but it's for simple things.) You just have to be really, really.. um, well nice. It's really easy to make my mom happy. She loves compliments.. on anything: the dinner she made, her clothes, etc. The happier they are the more likely they're able to let you have what you want. The more you piss an ISFJ off the more they will fight back. So calm down, humor them.. it worked for me for 17 years.