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Fatalism and Ne

Does Free Will Exist?

  • No, because God created everything according to His sacred plan. (Calvinism)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Unsure, and we will never know. (Hard Agnostism)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    14

Avocado

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This is probably Ne, though I am not sure. I will do one of my classic freetyping sessions and let you decide if it is similar:

Everything is predestined since everything is MOST LIKELYsubject to only physical laws, and everythinge is linked by cause and effect. I am hesitant to say the Big Bang was the beginning of space and time, but since the Big Bang is just a label we put on what appears to be the point at which everything in our OBSERVABLE universe was at a single point and although it ignores that for the past 13,820,000,000 (13.82 Billion) years, at least, space has been expanding and we are likely just observing what was just POSSIBLYonly a NANOSCOPIC speck of a much older, larger universe, I am going to call it the beginning for the sake of simplicity. Interestingly enough, though the models I have seen created by astrophysicists predict the creation of both matter and antimatter, for some reason, slightly more matter was created and our cause and effect chain was started. Everything we think and do is based on the firing of neurons, and since these neurons were created as a result of earlier events which ultimately have their roots in the initial start conditions of our observable universe. Nobody chooses to rob a bank any more than a meteor chooses to hit a planet or a rock chooses to roll down hill. The innate sense of morality most of us share is the result of natural selection because those morals benefitted group survival the most. Many species have become programed to accept group morality because those species that looked after their kind and worked with other living beings in their environment survived better than those that only entered aggressive competition with those of their own species and other species. The success of ant colonies (fascinating creatures!) for millions of years is evidence that when creatures form societies with group morals and norms, they tend to, but not alwayssurvive longer. Mutants that challenge these ideas about morality are often shunned by the greater population because most of these mutations are harmful to the societal organism and do not ensure group survival. Though I am not a trained astrophysicist nor a trained biologist and do not claim to be, this is both my understanding and analysis of the material put out by astrophysicists and biologists. We have an illusion of free will because having this illusion was a survival advantage and those who were fatalistic died off, allowing the idea of free will to dominate. That said, examination of the evidence I have leads me to the conclusion that free will is an illusion.


ADDITIONALLY this means predicting the future is simply a matter of information, and if one could have perfect knowledge of everything, one could predict everything until the end of time. That said, one could still create a flow chart of possible futures if one does not have perfect information, as I often do. As I gain information, I can assign probabilities to possible futures, and thus narrow my focus to consider less possibilities and improving my forecast.

"If one would divine the past, one could divine the future."

-Confucius, c. 500 BC
 

Tellenbach

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The Wailing Specter said:
Everything is predestined since everything is MOST LIKELYsubject to only physical laws, and everythinge is linked by cause and effect

I don't like the idea of predestination because this suggests the existence of an intelligence. An event may be random and be subject to physical laws. If I flip a coin, the outcome is not predestined. There is a probability distribution. In the same manner, a human born in Detroit and the behaviors he exhibits as a result of having been raised there, also falls under a probability distribution. Each change in physical law (the variables) changes the shape of the probability distribution. If you have lead poisoning, if you are raised by a single mom, if you were attacked by a dog, etc., if you have certain genes, your probability distribution curve will look different. A person born in Detroit is far less likely to become a neurosurgeon, but it's not impossible either. (The variables changes the probabilities of certain outcomes but doesn't necessarily prohibit them.)
 

Lord Lavender

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I am a soft determinist (At least the way you describe it). I think that way as I do think that people are capable of making their own choices and that people who are fatalists are in my opinion that way to avoid responsibility as fatalism is essentially "I don't have to do anything as life will go that way no matter what". Not exactly a productive mind-set to have in life. In other words I don't believe in peoples fates being determined from birth via some mystical universal pattern.

On the other hand things can ether help or hinder a persons fate in life. For instance if you are blind you probably will never drive (short of future advances). There is also environment, genetics and all that yada. Basically a person born into a orderly loving upper-middle class family is more likely to have the attitude and support to go to higher education, start a business than someone from a lower class single parent abusive family but again it is not written in stone anywhere of the fates of the two hypothetical persons above as the one from the upper middle class family could go off the rails, go on drugs and end up homeless after being disowned while the lower class person could with motivation succeed.
 

Avocado

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I am a soft determinist (At least the way you describe it). I think that way as I do think that people are capable of making their own choices and that people who are fatalists are in my opinion that way to avoid responsibility as fatalism is essentially "I don't have to do anything as life will go that way no matter what". Not exactly a productive mind-set to have in life. In other words I don't believe in peoples fates being determined from birth via some mystical universal pattern.

On the other hand things can ether help or hinder a persons fate in life. For instance if you are blind you probably will never drive (short of future advances). There is also environment, genetics and all that yada. Basically a person born into a orderly loving upper-middle class family is more likely to have the attitude and support to go to higher education, start a business than someone from a lower class single parent abusive family but again it is not written in stone anywhere of the fates of the two hypothetical persons above as the one from the upper middle class family could go off the rails, go on drugs and end up homeless after being disowned while the lower class person could with motivation succeed.
Of course, one could say that one would have always "gone against what was predicted" because due to mutations in their genes, they were going to be different than their progenitors.
 

Lord Lavender

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They are errors in the universes computer code so to speak so they dont fit the universes plan so to speak for deterministics . Like if you mess around with computer code something is gonna get messed up and genetics i always have said is like computer code. However in the future genetic engineering is on the way so that means that one aspect of determinism will be gone as people then can possibly remove defective genes.
 

Avocado

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They are errors in the universes computer code so to speak so they dont fit the universes plan so to speak for deterministics . Like if you mess around with computer code something is gonna get messed up and genetics i always have said is like computer code. However in the future genetic engineering is on the way so that means that one aspect of determinism will be gone as people then can possibly remove defective genes.
Of course, I would argue that is still determinism, but taking a different path. The first was straight up genetics, the seconds was also genetics, but with greater human involvement. Daniel Dennet lays out a good case for Hard Determinism:
Secular Perspectives: Free Will and Determinism
 

1487610420

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I don't like the idea of predestination because this suggests the existence of an intelligence. An event may be random and be subject to physical laws. If I flip a coin, the outcome is not predestined. There is a probability distribution. In the same manner, a human born in Detroit and the behaviors he exhibits as a result of having been raised there, also falls under a probability distribution. Each change in physical law (the variables) changes the shape of the probability distribution. If you have lead poisoning, if you are raised by a single mom, if you were attacked by a dog, etc., if you have certain genes, your probability distribution curve will look different. A person born in Detroit is far less likely to become a neurosurgeon, but it's not impossible either. (The variables changes the probabilities of certain outcomes but doesn't necessarily prohibit them.)

What if you were GOD and KNEW ALL the variables at ALL times, watching the human you thinking this, what would you think?
 

Tellenbach

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phobik said:
What if you were GOD and KNEW ALL the variables at ALL times, watching the human you thinking this, what would you think?

I'd think: How can I mess with this guy for maximum entertainment? Should I make the next 20 coin flips land on the coin's edge?
 

1487610420

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I'd think: How can I mess with this guy for maximum entertainment? Should I make the next 20 coin flips land on the coin's edge?

great, keep trolling your own thought experiment, instead of actually making an effort to answer on topic.
 

Lord Lavender

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It seems that hard determinism is similar to Calvinism in which everything is predestined. In the link the part about determinism meaning that there is one fixed timeline in our universe this effectively means that time travel could ether change the deterministic pattern of the universe or the universe will "correct itself" somehow back to the deterministic pattern. This has interesting implications for time travel as there is a concept called the butterfly effect which means one tiny change will kick off a very different pattern of sub-atomic stuff that means under the hard deterministic theory means that if time travel was to come around it would mean that ether the universe as we know it has changed.

You may have heard of something called the Mandala effect. This is when people have different memories of a particular event. One famous example is the Bearstein bears which some people will think is Bearstain or Bernstein. The "official" name is Bearstain however. Another famous example is the large amount of people who swear that Nelson Mandala (who the effect is named after) died in jail in the 1980-1990s even thought he died a few years ago. This may show someone from the future tried to go back in time and mess things around but the universe fixed itself but not perfectly as there are presumably still people stuck in those different universes. If the Mandala effect is real then the universe is a hard deterministic thing with some minor soft deterministic aspects.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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It seems that hard determinism is similar to Calvinism in which everything is predestined. In the link the part about determinism meaning that there is one fixed timeline in our universe this effectively means that time travel could ether change the deterministic pattern of the universe or the universe will "correct itself" somehow back to the deterministic pattern. This has interesting implications for time travel as there is a concept called the butterfly effect which means one tiny change will kick off a very different pattern of sub-atomic stuff that means under the hard deterministic theory means that if time travel was to come around it would mean that ether the universe as we know it has changed.

You may have heard of something called the Mandala effect. This is when people have different memories of a particular event. One famous example is the Bearstein bears which some people will think is Bearstain or Bernstein. The "official" name is Bearstain however. Another famous example is the large amount of people who swear that Nelson Mandala (who the effect is named after) died in jail in the 1980-1990s even thought he died a few years ago. This may show someone from the future tried to go back in time and mess things around but the universe fixed itself but not perfectly as there are presumably still people stuck in those different universes. If the Mandala effect is real then the universe is a hard deterministic thing with some minor soft deterministic aspects.

What if the Mandala Effect just shows people are just mostly ignorant and dumb? (Real question)
 
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SpankyMcFly

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I'd think: How can I mess with this guy for maximum entertainment? Should I make the next 20 coin flips land on the coin's edge?


If there is a god and it did this I'd think 'he' is a bit trollish, not a judgement mind you, just an observation. If so, this god seems more like:

Fortuna (Latin: Fortūna, equivalent to the Greek goddess Tyche) was the goddess of fortune and personification of luck in Roman religion. She might bring good or bad luck: she could be represented as veiled and blind, as in modern depictions of Lady Justice, and came to represent life's capriciousness. She was also a goddess of fate: as Atrox Fortuna, she claimed the young lives of the princeps Augustus' grandsons Gaius and Lucius, prospective heirs to the Empire.[1]

Fortuna - Wikipedia

v46m1u.jpg



great, keep trolling your own thought experiment, instead of actually making an effort to answer on topic.


This tickled my funny bone. A Ne dom 'complaining'? (implied?) about someone not staying on topic. :rofl1:
 

Lord Lavender

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The Mandala effect could very possibly be people having bad memories and being dumb. I have personally thought "I'm pretty sure this was x or y" and then it turns out I have misread or misremembered something plus Bearstein is far easier on the eyes and tounge than Bearstain so you are on to something there but I personally think that some of the stuff I have read on the mandala effect is too strange to just be misremembered facts. For instance the fact that masses of people swear that X person died years or even decades ago when they are still alive today shows something strange is going on.

"I'd think: How can I mess with this guy for maximum entertainment? Should I make the next 20 coin flips land on the coin's edge?":happy2:. Sums up what the Christian God probably works if he exists. I have always been convinced that God in the bible is a bored teenage boy playing Sims. No one else bar a bored teenage boy on Sims could come up with the Job business.
 

1487610420

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If there is a god and it did this I'd think 'he' is a bit trollish, not a judgement mind you, just an observation. If so, this god seems more like:

Fortuna (Latin: Fortūna, equivalent to the Greek goddess Tyche) was the goddess of fortune and personification of luck in Roman religion. She might bring good or bad luck: she could be represented as veiled and blind, as in modern depictions of Lady Justice, and came to represent life's capriciousness. She was also a goddess of fate: as Atrox Fortuna, she claimed the young lives of the princeps Augustus' grandsons Gaius and Lucius, prospective heirs to the Empire.[1]

Fortuna - Wikipedia

v46m1u.jpg






This tickled my funny bone. A Ne dom 'complaining'? (implied?) about someone not staying on topic. :rofl1:

Obvsly mistyped.
 

Cogreboy

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I put my vote for Soft Determinism and after I placed it I saw that majority thinks the same. Yes, though prior circumstances predispose us to act and think a certain way!
 
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meowington

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I voted soft agnostism but that's probably just wishful thinking. On a gloomy day or when I'm really being strictly rational about it, I lean to hard determinism.
 

Lord Lavender

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Interesting point of view. What makes you think that the universe is soft agnostistic. Same here I also have days when I swear that the universe is hardly deterministic and that it is against me.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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If there is a god and it did this I'd think 'he' is a bit trollish, not a judgement mind you, just an observation. If so, this god seems more like:

Fortuna (Latin: Fortūna, equivalent to the Greek goddess Tyche) was the goddess of fortune and personification of luck in Roman religion. She might bring good or bad luck: she could be represented as veiled and blind, as in modern depictions of Lady Justice, and came to represent life's capriciousness. She was also a goddess of fate: as Atrox Fortuna, she claimed the young lives of the princeps Augustus' grandsons Gaius and Lucius, prospective heirs to the Empire.[1]

Fortuna - Wikipedia

v46m1u.jpg






This tickled my funny bone. A Ne dom 'complaining'? (implied?) about someone not staying on topic. :rofl1:

I am under the belief that God, or conversely the Devil, has no real power in this world. Influence, okay...but by way of human choice (free will).

Whatever you want to call good/evil and if you want to synthesize that onto God = good. Which can get tricky, to say the least.

I do believe in free will. That "but" comes in the form of probability of direction of action based on variable factors that we don't fully understand yet and we may not be able to fully grasp.

I don't think that soft determinism negates free will but may explain choice of free will. Are we reverse engineering free will or following it from the starting point? (My issues with philosophy!)

I do find it interesting that while science can explain why humans may behave certain ways, it can't explain why people react differently to same events.

It's similar to the "binding problem" in researching the senses. We know how we see, smell, hear. We don't know how we process these to be able to do them simultaneously and how that occurs in the brain.

Is God in our brains? Is the Devil? If we say "Determinism" three times while looking in the mirror, does our free will erode?

:alttongue:

I don't know. The more answers, the less we have.

I guess I would be a indeterminism person with a knowledge that humans are flawed and as such cannot attain their full potentials and use determinism to explain why.

Or not. Whatever.
 

1487610420

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I am under the belief that God, or conversely the Devil, has no real power in this world. Influence, okay...but by way of human choice (free will).

Whatever you want to call good/evil and if you want to synthesize that onto God = good. Which can get tricky, to say the least.

I do believe in free will. That "but" comes in the form of probability of direction of action based on variable factors that we don't fully understand yet and we may not be able to fully grasp.

I don't think that soft determinism negates free will but may explain choice of free will. Are we reverse engineering free will or following it from the starting point? (My issues with philosophy!)

I do find it interesting that while science can explain why humans may behave certain ways, it can't explain why one person reacts differently to different events.

It's similar to the "binding problem" in researching the senses. We know how we see, smell, hear. We don't know how we process these to be able to do them simultaneously and how that occurs in the brain.

Is God in our brains? Is the Devil? If we say "Determinism" three times while looking in the mirror, does our free will erode?

:alttongue:

I don't know. The more answers, the less we have.

There're two main issues:
1) having the same references and understanding of them;
2) following a reasoning other than our own.

It helps is essential to first establish a common definition and understanding of terminology before using references, otherwise the result is each person talking to themselves and nobody else grasping wtf they on about, because their understanding of the meaning of words is different, or cannibalizing their reasoning to fit oneself's understanding and narrative.

And while the latter always happens, because 3) no telepathy exists, the core issue is having the same understanding of terminology to start with, while acceptance of the other party's reasoning is a separate challenge. They are often intertwined because of failure at 1), even if conscious effort is made, because 3).

Example: The understanding of
a) God vs Devil as Good vs Evil, as a reference to morality in human experience;

b) God as an all knowing entity - is different from a) but often these two are correlated in religion, like Christianity;

c) Extending the meaning of God as an entity that represents existence, as a consciousness, a form of awareness at the scale of the Cosmos, thus beyond the human grasp of consciousness of the self, is different from a) and b). Problem.

This in itself a big challenge for most of the population trapped in the daily dream of thought, Eastern philosophies advocate practices like meditation in order to bridge that disconnect.

I my previous post, my reference of God was aligned with c), and I didn't make that clear, thus a potential can of clusterfuck ensued.
 

meowington

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Interesting point of view. What makes you think that the universe is soft agnostistic. Same here I also have days when I swear that the universe is hardly deterministic and that it is against me.

Soft agnostic in the sense : "Unsure, but someday we will know." as in the OP description. Even if I'm more inclined to say "someday we might know."
(wishfully thinking) Soft agnostic in the sense that we don't know exactly what happened before abiogenesis or how the big bang came to be.

Yeah, I also have days where I feel like the universe is against me, but rationally I don't. Rationally it tells me an awful lot seems hard determined, entirely indifferent of me.
 
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