• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Introvert Sensing and the Persecution Complex

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Does anybody know if the Si function is especially prone to being associated with a persecution complex? It seems like the two would go together very well in the same psyche. Because Si is the function that adds something to reality that's not really present, as in getting mad at a green light for turning red as if the traffic signal has some kind of personal agenda.

For example, I read this online:
IS THERE A TREATMENT FOR A PERSECUTION COMPLEX? - Anxiety - MedHelp
"I'm definitely one of those people with the insane persecution reactions. To this day, I have difficulty believing that a light that suddenly turns red on me did not deliberately try to mess with me. I regularly flame out of control, like this. So far, I believe that the only solution is to develop and practice an instant reaction to these flame-ups by telling myself, CALM DOWN."

This person is obviously imagining something that isn't there, as I would expect with the Si function.
 

Hank

New member
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
32
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
749
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Unless I'm mistaken, I would think that "add[ing] something to reality that's not really present" would be more aligned with having Ne in a lower function position like tertiary or inferior. I have ISTJ and ISFJ acquaintances who will do things exactly like you described--grumbling at traffic lights like they made a conscious decision to inconvenience them, etc. It's never been an intense reaction like your link (that I've ever witnessed, anyway), but it's there.

I've always figured that the inconvenience was putting both of them into a shadow function state, so their inferior Ne's were being let loose. Si, by itself and by typically accepted definition, isn't going to make up something that isn't there.
 

Siúil a Rúin

when the colors fade
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
14,044
MBTI Type
ISFP
Enneagram
496
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
From my understanding, Si maps concrete experience as the point of reference, and so whatever has happened concretely in a person's life tends to get internalized with a lot of stability. I would say that if someone with strong Si was mistreated, that it would leave a strong impact and be the point of reference for interpreting future experiences. If the person was treated especially well in the past, that would equally be the point of reference for interpreting future experiences. The same is true for being down to earth or having highly discriminating taste, etc.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I don't see them taking it personally enough to call it a persecution complex...instead they may have an exaggeratedly fearful, negative view of reality, a sort of "what can go wrong WILL go wrong" viewpoint. But it's not like they think they are being personally targeted for some reason related to who they are. At least, that is not how they appear to me.

I have seen some with martyr complexes, but it's more like: "Nobody does as much as I do! I do all the work, get taken for granted, while others just slack off!".

It looks more like a grasshopper and ant scenario, where they resent the grasshopper for playing the summer away while they "sacrifice" their summer to prepare for hard times ahead, but in the end they will share their winter store with the grasshopper because they feel it's the right thing (but not without playing the martyr, grumbling about it, and laying endless guilt trips).
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Unless I'm mistaken, I would think that "add[ing] something to reality that's not really present" would be more aligned with having Ne in a lower function position like tertiary or inferior. I have ISTJ and ISFJ acquaintances who will do things exactly like you described--grumbling at traffic lights like they made a conscious decision to inconvenience them, etc. It's never been an intense reaction like your link (that I've ever witnessed, anyway), but it's there.

I've always figured that the inconvenience was putting both of them into a shadow function state, so their inferior Ne's were being let loose. Si, by itself and by typically accepted definition, isn't going to make up something that isn't there.

It could be Ne-inferior to the extent that the representation of reality (a stop-light) is negative, given the primitive nature of the inferior in general. But to the extent that the Si function perceives certain things as benevolent, it will find the silver lining surrounding every dark cloud.
 

Norrsken

self murderer
Joined
Nov 27, 2015
Messages
3,633
MBTI Type
ENFJ
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
But to the extent that the Si function perceives certain things as benevolent, it will find the silver lining surrounding every dark cloud.

That doesn't sound like Si at all.
 

Forever

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
8,551
MBTI Type
NiFi
Enneagram
3w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
That doesn't sound like Si at all.

The Introverted Sensation Type The predominance of introverted sensation produces a definite type, which is characterized by certain peculiarities. It is an irrational type, because it is oriented amid the flux of events not by rational judgment but simply by what happens. Whereas the extraverted sensation type is guided by the intensity of objective influences, the introverted type is guided by the intensity of the subjective sensation excited by the objective stimulus. Obviously, therefore, no proportional relation exists between object and sensation, but one that is apparently quite unpredictable and arbitrary. What will make an impression and what will not can never be seen in advance, and from outside. Did there exist an aptitude for expression in any way proportional to the intensity of his sensations, the irrationality of this type would be extraordinarily striking. This is the case, for instance, when an individual is a creative artist. But since this is the exception, the introvert's characteristic difficulty in expressing himself also conceals his irrationality. On the contrary, he may be conspicuous for his calmness and passivity, or for his rational self-control. This peculiarity, which often leads a superficial judgment astray, is really due to his unrelatedness to objects. Normally the object is not consciously devalued in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it and immediately replaced by a subjective reaction no longer related to the reality of the object. This naturally has the same effect as devaluation. Such a type can easily make one question why one should exist at all, or why objects in general should have any justification for their existence since everything essential still goes on happening without them. This doubt may be justified in extreme cases, but not in the normal, since the objective stimulus is absolutely necessary to sensation and merely produces something different from what the external situation might lead one to expect. Seen from the outside, it looks as though the effect of the object did not penetrate into the subject at all. This impression is correct inasmuch as a subjective content does, in fact, intervene from the unconscious and intercept the effect of the object. The intervention may be so abrupt that the individual appears to be shielding himself directly from all objective influences. In more serious cases, such a protective defence actually does exist. Even with only a slight increase in the power of the unconscious, the subjective component of sensation becomes so alive that it almost completely obscures the influence of the object. If the object is a person, he feels completely devalued, while the subject has an illusory conception of reality, which in pathological cases goes so far that he is no longer able to distinguish between the real object and the subjective perception. Although so vital a distinction reaches the vanishing point only in near-psychotic states, yet long before that the subjective perception can influence thought, feeling, and action to an excessive degree despite the fact that the object is clearly seen in all its reality. When its influence does succeed in penetrating into the subject because of its special intensity or because of its complete analogy with the unconscious image even the normal type will be compelled to act in accordance with the unconscious model. Such action has an illusory character unrelated to objective reality and is extremely disconcerting. It instantly reveals the reality alienating subjectivity of this type. But when the influence of the object does not break through completely, it is met with well-intentioned neutrality, disclosing little sympathy yet constantly striving to soothe and adjust. The too low is raised a little, the too high is lowered, enthusiasm is damped down, extravagance restrained, and anything out of the ordinary reduced to the right formula-all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds. In this way the type becomes a menace to his environment because his total innocuousness is not altogether above suspicion. In that case he easily becomes a victim of the aggressiveness and domineeringness of others. Such men allow themselves to be abused and then take their revenge on the most unsuitable occasions with redoubled obtuseness and stubbornness. If no capacity for artistic expression is present, all impressions sink into the depths and hold consciousness under a spell, so that it becomes impossible to master their fascination by giving them conscious expression. In general, this type can organize his impressions only in archaic ways, because thinking and feeling are relatively unconscious and, if conscious at all, have at their disposal only the most necessary, banal, everyday means of expression. As conscious functions, they are wholly incapable of adequately reproducing his subjective perceptions. This type, therefore, is uncommonly inaccessible to objective understanding, and he usually fares no better in understanding himself. Above all, his development alienates him from the reality of the object, leaving him at the mercy of his subjective perceptions, which orient his consciousness to an archaic reality, although his lack of comparative judgment keeps him wholly unconscious of this fact. Actually he lives in a mythological world, where men, animals, locomotives, houses, rivers, and mountains appear either as benevolent deities or as malevolent demons. That they appear thus to him never enters his head, though that is just the effect they have on his judgments and actions. He judges and acts as though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality. If he has any aptitude for objective reason, he will sense this difference as morbid; but if he remains faithful to his irrationality, and is ready to grant his sensations reality value, the objective world will appear a mere make-believe and a comedy. Only in extreme cases, however, is this dilemma reached. As a rule he re-signs himself to his isolation and the banality of the world, which he has unconsciously made archaic. His unconscious is distinguished chiefly by the repression of intuition, which consequently acquires an extraverted and archaic character. Whereas true extraverted intuition is possessed of a singular resourcefulness, a "good nose" for objectively real possibilities, this archaicized intuition has an amazing flair for all the ambiguous, shadowy, sordid, dangerous possibilities lurking in the background. The real and conscious intentions of the object mean nothing to it; instead, it sniffs out every conceivable archaic motive underlying such an intention. It therefore has a dangerous and destructive quality that contrasts glaringly with the well-meaning innocuousness of the conscious attitude. So long as the individual does not hold too aloof from the object, his unconscious intuition has a salutary compensating effect on the rather fantastic and overcredulous attitude of consciousness. But as soon as the unconscious becomes antagonistic, the archaic intuitions come to the surface and exert their pernicious influence, forcing themselves on the individual and producing compulsive ideas of the most perverse kind. The result is usually a compulsion neurosis, in which the hysterical features are masked by symptoms of exhaustion.
 

Forever

Permabanned
Joined
Aug 30, 2013
Messages
8,551
MBTI Type
NiFi
Enneagram
3w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
^ sorry for the bad formatting. But I believe you can find what he is mentioning theforsaken

To really know Ni, you must know the primal differences between that and Si

i still believe you're an Si dom

This wouldn't be the best description for you to say well I can't relate because of course this Si in its purest form. It's normal not to relate to it entirely
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
"The too low is raised a little..."

Yup. Silver lining.
 
Joined
Jul 23, 2016
Messages
432
Enneagram
9w1
Introverted Perceiving function and wrongful association of circumstance and cause. Mistaking a Te process (light changing) for an "the world hates me :(" process seems like attributing Fe to it.
 

Yama

Permabanned
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
7,684
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
But to the extent that the Si function perceives certain things as benevolent, it will find the silver lining surrounding every dark cloud.

Have you seen Michael Pierce's ISFJ revisited vid that just came out? He said something that I actually relate to a lot--that ISFJs are actually incredibly inwardly pessimistic but tend to project positive vibes outward (even though that's not necessarily what they're feeling inside). I don't look for the silver lining in things--my first reaction is to nitpick all the details about how something sucks tbh. I'm an incredibly negative and pessimistic person. Positivity and mindfulness have always just felt like "lying to myself" and "being fake." Not that that's true for all ISFJs, but it is for me.

Anyway, the silver lining thing is more of the image they give off to promote a positive atmosphere (Fe) rather than what they are actually feeling or perceiving. Si does not apply judgment (good/bad) to anything because it's not a judging function. It merely perceives. So if you see some pattern with silver linings and ISFJs, it is likely Fe rather than Si.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Have you seen Michael Pierce's ISFJ revisited vid that just came out? He said something that I actually relate to a lot--that ISFJs are actually incredibly inwardly pessimistic but tend to project positive vibes outward (even though that's not necessarily what they're feeling inside). I don't look for the silver lining in things--my first reaction is to nitpick all the details about how something sucks tbh. I'm an incredibly negative and pessimistic person. Positivity and mindfulness have always just felt like "lying to myself" and "being fake." Not that that's true for all ISFJs, but it is for me.

Anyway, the silver lining thing is more of the image they give off to promote a positive atmosphere (Fe) rather than what they are actually feeling or perceiving. Si does not apply judgment (good/bad) to anything because it's not a judging function. It merely perceives. So if you see some pattern with silver linings and ISFJs, it is likely Fe rather than Si.

Si filters experiences through a group of expectations based on experience. These expectations are unfortunately set in stone. They are very hard to change because they form the individual's personality and ego defenses.

Naturally these defenses are negatively oriented. They are designed to preserve the existence of the ego. But they are not always negative. As Jung wrote, there are "benevolent deities" as well as "malevolent demons." What matters is that with Introverted Sensing everything is oriented toward the subjective representation, whether it is negative or positive. Feelings about these things are always strong, and there is usually no ambivalence about them. If you have met Si-dominants who are negatively inclined, or if you are one of them, then that experience is based on those few examples including yourself.

..."anything out of the ordinary reduced to the right formula-all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds..." Jung doesn't say that the "out of the ordinary" is either good or bad, only that it is restricted. "You're having too much fun, tone it down!" "You're so depressed all the time, cheer up!"
 

Hank

New member
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
32
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
749
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Si filters experiences through a group of expectations based on experience. These expectations are unfortunately set in stone. They are very hard to change because they form the individual's personality and ego defenses.

Naturally these defenses are negatively oriented. They are designed to preserve the existence of the ego. But they are not always negative. As Jung wrote, there are "benevolent deities" as well as "malevolent demons." What matters is that with Introverted Sensing everything is oriented toward the subjective representation, whether it is negative or positive. Feelings about these things are always strong, and there is usually no ambivalence about them. If you have met Si-dominants who are negatively inclined, or if you are one of them, then that experience is based on those few examples including yourself.

..."anything out of the ordinary reduced to the right formula-all this in order to keep the influence of the object within the necessary bounds..." Jung doesn't say that the "out of the ordinary" is either good or bad, only that it is restricted. "You're having too much fun, tone it down!" "You're so depressed all the time, cheer up!"

I apologize if I'm answering naively/illogically. I will be the first to admit that I haven't yet read Psychological Types. However:

You appear to be associating Fi ("expectations [...] are very hard to change because they form the individual's personality and ego defenses," "they are designed to preserve the existence of the ego") or Fe (the "change your behavior" quotes at the end of your post) to Si. I submit again that you are attaching behaviors of the non-Si functions of ISTJ's and ISFJ's to Si.

It doesn't make judgments; it's a perceiving function.
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I apologize if I'm answering naively/illogically. I will be the first to admit that I haven't yet read Psychological Types. However:

You appear to be associating Fi ("expectations [...] are very hard to change because they form the individual's personality and ego defenses," "they are designed to preserve the existence of the ego") or Fe (the "change your behavior" quotes at the end of your post) to Si. I submit again that you are attaching behaviors of the non-Si functions of ISTJ's and ISFJ's to Si.

It doesn't make judgments; it's a perceiving function.

What however is it perceiving?
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I apologize if I'm answering naively/illogically. I will be the first to admit that I haven't yet read Psychological Types. However:

You appear to be associating Fi ("expectations [...] are very hard to change because they form the individual's personality and ego defenses," "they are designed to preserve the existence of the ego") or Fe (the "change your behavior" quotes at the end of your post) to Si. I submit again that you are attaching behaviors of the non-Si functions of ISTJ's and ISFJ's to Si.

It doesn't make judgments; it's a perceiving function.

Is it perceiving nothing?
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Introverted Perceiving function and wrongful association of circumstance and cause. Mistaking a Te process (light changing) for an "the world hates me :(" process seems like attributing Fe to it.

Write entire sentences so we can understand you please.
 

Hank

New member
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
32
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
749
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
What however is it perceiving?

Is it perceiving nothing?

It's perceiving the physical, sense-able world--i.e., the light changing to red. Not sure what you're aiming for with your questions. Perceiving functions perceive information about the world. Si does that through observing the world in front of it. There's not much room for subjectivity in Sensing, because it literally exists to take objective data from the world through senses for processing by Feeling or Thinking. Maybe I've got a poor idea of what Si is.

I'm not disregarding your entire theory, but I disagree with the idea that the entire behavior you're describing is caused by Si. If your thesis was more about observing Ne, shadow functions, or non-Si functions in Si-dominant personalities, then I would be on board with everything you're saying.
 

Mayflower

King Ping
Joined
Oct 3, 2016
Messages
701
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
9w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
I really don't think Si is any more prone to the persecution complex than other of the functions. I can see how it can manifest though (Si-doms feeling that their impression of the world is under threat of a changing world (lower Ne)). Others would manifest like this in my opinion.

Fi-dom "This just isn't my thing. "I don't want to be forced to do this. "I know it has to be done, but it just seems so...wrong."
Ni-dom "I don't
Ti-dom "I just don't see why I have to go along with this. It doesn't make sense, yet others choose do so, let alone try involve me."
Se-dom "I don't see the point. Why can't I just focus on what's in front of me. I don't see why people place importance on seeing where they're going. It's frustrating."
Te-dom "Why does everyone think that of me? Just because I'm focused on progress doesn't mean I'm heartless. They'll come around and see I'm right."
Fe-dom "Yes, Yes, I know it's not 'logical', but it doesn't consider others. I wish people would focus on the human aspect rather than pure logic."
Ne-dom "(sigh), It's possible if you think about it. Why do you seem to stick to what you know and not venture the possibilities? Talk about hive mind."
 

Mal12345

Permabanned
Joined
Apr 19, 2011
Messages
14,532
MBTI Type
IxTP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
It's perceiving the physical, sense-able world--i.e., the light changing to red. Not sure what you're aiming for with your questions. Perceiving functions perceive information about the world. Si does that through observing the world in front of it. There's not much room for subjectivity in Sensing, because it literally exists to take objective data from the world through senses for processing by Feeling or Thinking. Maybe I've got a poor idea of what Si is.

I'm not disregarding your entire theory, but I disagree with the idea that the entire behavior you're describing is caused by Si. If your thesis was more about observing Ne, shadow functions, or non-Si functions in Si-dominant personalities, then I would be on board with everything you're saying.

Si is about perceiving the sensible world?
 
Top