Please educate me about Ti

[Evo]

Genuinely curious on how to improve a conversational approach with Ti users.


An example that I've noticed in the past is that someone will say something akin to "sweaters are comfortable." And the Ti user takes that sentence and recognizes it as a false statement. I follow that. The part that I question is, why does the Ti user need qualifiers such as "In my opinion" in order to know what the person means when they say something?

 

[Pionart]

Ti is naturally very focused on the thoughts and views of the individual themself. The default mode of operation is to determine how the information being received fits into their own framework. When the other person makes an explicit mention that they are referring to their own views, and it is not to be interpreted through that of the Ti dominant, then it provides a clear reminder to the Ti dominant to shift their focus from themself to the other person.

This may relate to the problem of other minds. While the Ti dominant is well aware that other people have minds, I believe that they are naturally quite out of tune with the other's. It's difficult to determine for them how the behaviour of the other person fits into the overall picture of who that person is, and so naturally when they try to interpret the statement it will not quite reflect the meaning of the other speaker.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

Genuinely curious on how to improve a conversational approach with Ti users.


An example that I've noticed in the past is that someone will say something akin to "sweaters are comfortable." And the Ti user takes that sentence and recognizes it as a false statement. I follow that. The part that I question is, why does the Ti user need qualifiers such as "In my opinion" in order to know what the person means when they say something?

I was JUST pondering this topic yesterday.

I was creating an answer in the "FREEDOM" thread and in part wrote: in mature relationships freedom {to me} is allowing the other person to be who they are.

Reviewing the sentence I decided that the {to me} qualifier was redundant and deleted it. But, I felt so uncomfortable...I had to put it back in

I think Ti reviews and analyzes motives & authenticity. It weighs 'what it hears' against 'what it knows'. If I hear someone say "sweaters are comfortable" it's likely I do a quick, subconscious analysis to see if that fits with my experience and knowledge thus far.

I know that Ti + Ne = I prefer the option of continuing discovery and thought as opposed to clear-cut conclusions or generalizations. Except in the case of things verified...tried and true.

So, when presenting my own thoughts it's important to me that the other party know I am not married to my own conclusions.

That I am open to hearing (and perhaps even assimilating) the other person's views. That I recognize I may be wrong, the thought may not be fully formed or further education will affect my perspective. I will qualify thoughts as 'in my opinion' unless it is something I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY & can fully stand behind.

Now I have to think more on your question and ask myself if I expect other's to do the same? I don't think so. It would be unreasonable to expect people with different brain processes to do so. But, I can't say for certain yet, and want to answer accurately...

 

[Kaizer]

I was JUST pondering this topic yesterday.

I was creating an answer in the "FREEDOM" thread and in part wrote: in mature relationships freedom {to me} is allowing the other person to be who they are.

Reviewing the sentence I decided that the {to me} qualifier was redundant and deleted it. But, I felt so uncomfortable...I had to put it back in

Not trying to be obvious here and am just building the point by pointing out that this is the bit where i see the feeling element dominating smoothly/in flow somewhat more....

I think Ti reviews and analyzes motives & authenticity. It weighs 'what it hears' against 'what it knows'. If I hear someone say "sweaters are comfortable" it's likely I do a quick, subconscious analysis to see if that fits with my experience and knowledge thus far.

...the point that, more often than not, I presume that my statement/reply is heard as my understanding &/or view &/or opinion. This gets more obviously pointed out by me when the other person has more of a black and white point of view/perception/outlook/intelligence ... and more then than not, the other person seems to me to lack the fruits of the presence of the element of Ne that you've mentioned below

I know that Ti + Ne = I prefer the option of continuing discovery and thought as opposed to clear-cut conclusions or generalizations. Except in the case of things verified...tried and true.

As for this bit :

So, when presenting my own thoughts it's important to me that the other party know I am not married to my own conclusions.

That I am open to hearing (and perhaps even assimilating) the other person's views. That I recognize I may be wrong, the thought may not be fully formed or further education will affect my perspective. I will qualify thoughts as 'in my opinion' unless it is something I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY & can fully stand behind.

I generally/naturally take the above as assumptions/pre-requisites but a lot of the time the clear/precise/approximately-precise verbalization/articulation/enunciation of my understanding seems to be seen, again, mostly by those with more of a black & white / closure-simplicity orientation, as just that...a final judgement/view/generalization in black and white terms...somewhat in terms that are part of the tribal orientation

Now I have to think more on your question and ask myself if I expect other's to do the same? I don't think so. It would be unreasonable to expect people with different brain processes to do so. But, I can't say for certain yet, and want to answer accurately...

Yes I agree that it is unreasonable to expect that especially with people who perceive things inherently and fundamentally differently, which is why the difference in kinds of intelligence can be bridged best/mostly by the quality of it. again, feelers, whether inherently that or those who are better than they would've been because of being socialized into it, always seem to be much more sensitive to such things in such a manner more naturally and immediately/in flow.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Genuinely curious on how to improve a conversational approach with Ti users.


An example that I've noticed in the past is that someone will say something akin to "sweaters are comfortable." And the Ti user takes that sentence and recognizes it as a false statement. I follow that. The part that I question is, why does the Ti user need qualifiers such as "In my opinion" in order to know what the person means when they say something?

I think when fact and opinion are being woven together to form a POV, it's difficult for the Ti person to see where the distinctions occur. To be honest, every type has a problem with this!

I've seen many people on here bring their own strongly held opinion into someone else's. Saying this is my opinion won't keep them from rebuttal. Saying that, and in terms of the OP's question specifically...

Placing a IMO in there, gives the separation needed. One is less inclined to investigate opinion in the same way it does fact. This is more a T person Ti, thing.

But I've seen immature Ti (it's actually strong Ti, immature supporting functions) go after opinion in the same way it does fact. When, there is more to a lot of people's decision making that strict fact. It becomes a prove/disprove to them rather than a question/answer desire to understand THEN vet the opinion.

The Ti user doesn't realize how invested they are to their own view, and early on, Ti dom users have some very black and white views because young Ti users usually don't have enough experience to flesh out these views with their environment enough times to have varying experience.

I see this tons of times in young IXTP's.

Giving a IMO to a Ti user, is like a speed bump for their thinking. It slows them down enough to weigh another dimension to their thinking.

 

[Snickie]

CloudPatrol, some of what you said sounds to me more like Si than Ti, particularly the "comparing it to past experiences/prior knowledge" part.

That's one thing that bothers me about Ti. Its descriptions are often so close to the Ne/Si dynamic that sometimes it doesn't even sound like it's its own thing.

/

The thing about Ti dom is that it comes with inf Fe by default, so there will likely always be a sense of "well what is the other person really thinking (language due to Ti filter) about this" which can loosely translate to "how do they feel about this" which is Fe. I think Ti users are interested in others understanding their Ti ideas and that's why Fe is so important because without it, how can they get others to really understand. Undeveloped Fe might forget that this is important or not know how to be as tactful as the situation or person requires.

But mostly I'm rambling right now because it's early for me and I'm still only half awake lol

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Ti is naturally very focused on the thoughts and views of the individual themself. The default mode of operation is to determine how the information being received fits into their own framework. When the other person makes an explicit mention that they are referring to their own views, and it is not to be interpreted through that of the Ti dominant, then it provides a clear reminder to the Ti dominant to shift their focus from themself to the other person.

This may relate to the problem of other minds. While the Ti dominant is well aware that other people have minds, I believe that they are naturally quite out of tune with the other's. It's difficult to determine for them how the behaviour of the other person fits into the overall picture of who that person is, and so naturally when they try to interpret the statement it will not quite reflect the meaning of the other speaker.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I think Ti reviews and analyzes motives & authenticity.

Almost but sub out authenticity with internal consistency.

It weighs 'what it hears' against 'what it knows'. If I hear someone say "sweaters are comfortable" it's likely I do a quick, subconscious analysis to see if that fits with my experience and knowledge thus far.

The usual Ti response to that kind of claim is 'compared to what?'

 

[CitizenErased]

I don't know if this is purely Ti or mixed with other functions, because my Ne is actually quite strong, but I personally dislike absolute truths. Everything can be seen and analyzed from so many different points of view. When somebody says something as an unappealable statement, I tend to, first, decompose the data I've received, and build it again according to my own way of building logic. To use a metaphor, I decompose the info in squared Legos... or bits, even better, and then I sort of put back each bit where, according to me, it's supposed to be. If I can't build something that I may believe in, I discard it. i understand others have points of view, as I have mine, but it sometimes maddens me that others say something as a truth because it makes me realize they are not considering other options.

Also, I don't know if this happens to all Ti-dom people, but when there's a situation I need to solve, I start listing all the things that won't work, because I see the problem as a field in my mind, and by crossing out with big red Xs the options that aren't viable, the field is cleared to work out a solution only using plausible material. In some way, that's what happens to the data I receive. I "clean" it before accepting it as part of my inventory.

That's how I understand the way my Ti works. I also agree with [MENTION=27162]Cloudpatrol[/MENTION] in that comparing input with already known/proved to work material is an important part of the proces, because that's part of what builds the framework in which all future information will be either invited to be part of or crushed like a beetle.

 

[Mal12345]

Genuinely curious on how to improve a conversational approach with Ti users.


An example that I've noticed in the past is that someone will say something akin to "sweaters are comfortable." And the Ti user takes that sentence and recognizes it as a false statement. I follow that. The part that I question is, why does the Ti user need qualifiers such as "In my opinion" in order to know what the person means when they say something?

The best conversation approach is to make a lame joke, such as "Why did Beethoven write 9 symphonies? Because he couldn't count to 10." This is likely to be a great ice breaker unless the Ti is already aware of the joke.

 

[Evo]

I think when fact and opinion are being woven together to form a POV, it's difficult for the Ti person to see where the distinctions occur. To be honest, every type has a problem with this!

I've seen many people on here bring their own strongly held opinion into someone else's. Saying this is my opinion won't keep them from rebuttal. Saying that, and in terms of the OP's question specifically...

Yes, I don't expect that someone would not have a rebuttal, just because I have inserted a qualifier. But for example, you just said "every type has a problem with this." I don't know that that statement is true. But I sure am not going to get hung up about it. If I do get hung up on that, then I've lost sight of the big picture, and it looks like I've just ignored the rest of your post. Which clarified your statement, btw.

When the Ti user takes the statement that was about sweaters, and turns it into a statement about the truth of what comfortable means lol....that could make it seem like they're losing sight of the big picture.

So i guess what I'm asking is, is using a qualifier the best (or only) way around that?

I don't know if this is purely Ti or mixed with other functions, because my Ne is actually quite strong, but I personally dislike absolute truths.
Everything can be seen and analyzed from so many different points of view. i understand others have points of view, as I have mine, but it sometimes maddens me that others say something as a truth because it makes me realize they are not considering other options.

Yea, I get that. But do you ask them if they're not considering other options? Because that's my point, is that it seems like the Ti user is guessing at that point about the other person. What they're thinking, and trying to convey, etc.

Your lego analogy is exceptional.

 

[CitizenErased]

Yea, I get that. But do you ask them if they're not considering other options? Because that's my point, is that it seems like the Ti user is guessing at that point about the other person. What they're thinking, and trying to convey, etc.

Your lego analogy is exceptional.

Hahaha, thanks!! No, I don't. Not in the literal sense, at least. See, my problem is that I never consider I have a right answer. I have a plausible answer for each possible point of view, so it makes me feel weird that others stick to just one "truth". If they say sweaters are comfortable, my mind thinks they haven't tried all sweaters in the world, so they can't know. And sometimes I feel crazy when one says sweaters are comfortable and other says there are no comfortable sweaters and they both end the conversation there and move to something else. When are they going to settle that there are comfortable sweaters and uncomfortable sweaters and test which ones are the most comfortable and uncomfortable and etc etc etc?? I don't like conversations that don't challenge the point of view I tend to go for, so it's an... uneasy situation when someone states things as a truth, because I'd never express myself like that (which can be proved by the beastly amount of quotation marks and parentheticals I use).

Sometimes my response to their statement is "but haven't you thought ALL these other options?? *ENDLESS ENUMERATION*" because my conclusion is that, as I have decomposed all info and gotten to a "logic" statement, they have too. But I'm not always sure because my conclusions are never what others think, so I doubt if they went through all "necessary procedures" to get to the "right answer". Not that I think my answers are the right ones, but my mind thinks that there should be a reason why they arrived to that conclusion, and the fact that I discarded it but they didn't makes me wonder. So when someone says something as a truth (their truth), I'll probably need how and why they arrived to that conclusion and what factors they took into account, etc, which sorts of makes people desist in their attempts at communicating with me in a "normal" way.

 

[burymecloser]

Ti values precision and absolute accuracy.

When presented with a black-and-white declaration, our immediate reaction is to question it. We run the statement through an internal filter that asks, "Does this make sense to me? Are there exceptions?" It can come off as Devil's Advocate, which usually isn't the intention.

Including an 'IMO' eases that reaction off. We'll think, "Oh, Urarienev likes wearing sweaters. Ok." Make a blanket statement that sweaters are comfortable, and we'll probably think of our cousin who hates sweaters, or the time we wore one that was really itchy.

Ti-users tend to be very strict about distinguishing opinions from facts. Presenting an opinion as a fact ("Hemingway was the greatest novelist ever"), or a fact as a mere opinion ("evolution is just a theory"), will usually provoke a response from a Ti-dom. We prefer to include qualifiers for the former ("Hemingway is my favorite novelist"), and we have no patience for the latter. Anecdotal evidence ("I heard about someone who got decapitated by a seat belt! Seat belts don't make people safer!") is infuriating.

I use phrases like, "I think" and "It seems to me" quite often, to avoid mischaracterizing my opinions as facts. I understand why that seems unnecessary to many people, but it is more precise and accurate, and it's an easy way to avoid conflict with Ti-users. Is there a way around that? I'm not sure there is.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=14015]Urarienev[/MENTION]

i guess what I'm asking is, is using a qualifier the best (or only) way around that?

It's the easiest way around it, to be sure. Ti works best off of specifics. If you think you're not getting your point across then you can always ask a clarifiing question about what they think you're saying. That can keep things from going too far out of frame.

But sometimes Ti will be expanding on something to show more options, not necessarily to discount yours, or because they don't understand yours - but to piggyback on it, build off of it, or play Devils advocate, as stated before. It's how we synthesize information.

So, asking questions can bring them back to your point if they get carried away.

 

[Cellmold]

The best conversation approach is to make a lame joke, such as "Why did Beethoven write 9 symphonies? Because he couldn't count to 10." This is likely to be a great ice breaker unless the Ti is already aware of the joke.

All my jokes are lame, yet still there is that distance.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

I was JUST pondering this topic yesterday.

I was creating an answer in the "FREEDOM" thread and in part wrote: in mature relationships freedom {to me} is allowing the other person to be who they are.

Reviewing the sentence I decided that the {to me} qualifier was redundant and deleted it. But, I felt so uncomfortable...I had to put it back in

I don't think this has anything to do with Ti, because I also talk like this, like ALL OF THE TIME, but I'm definitely a Te user.

Ti values precision and absolute accuracy.

When presented with a black-and-white declaration, our immediate reaction is to question it. We run the statement through an internal filter that asks, "Does this make sense to me? Are there exceptions?"

Again, no. I also do this, and I'm not a Ti user (at all!).


I feel people tend to generalise MBTI too much. And make fallacies like: ok, this happens to me ---> therefore must be function x. Rather, you'd need to rule out the other functions in order to reach that conclusion of causation. I think.


PS: this is kinda abstract and difficult to pin-point, but my way of thinking is mostly like: i cannot reach a conclusion about an issue without exploring all possibilities. knowing the big picture. understanding how it positions in the context of things and essentially, how big the universe of a specific topic is. maybe this is Ne.
Then, I also need to explore what definitions mean. I don't take anything for granted. Every concept has been analysed in my mind (mostly when I was a child) and Ive attached specific personal meaning to it. I don't follow the status quo (or I do, but less than other people). I have opinions about each topic and they are personal and come from a process of thought and definition of concept. Mostly independent from society. I think this is Fi. Whatever.

So, don't know if this helps, but maybe some users may identify with what Im saying. My point is showing how you can have a similar though process (or similar conclusion actually), by using different functions.

 

[Mal12345]

All my jokes are lame, yet still there is that distance.

Try using deodorant.

 

[prplchknz]

T.I. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

[Snickie]

Once, in seventh grade, I had to write an essay about having faith in something, some weird subjective take on a concrete topic thing. I didn't have much of an opinion on the topic (read: Idgac) so I filled up three of the minimum required five paragraphs defining "faith" and then got bored and didn't finish the paper. My teacher was in no way pleased. xD

The whole devil's advocate thing. I have yet to encounter a post or writing that better describes my thought process than that of [MENTION=9256]burymecloser[/MENTION] a few posts up. Maybe I really am Ti dom and not just inf Fe. :'D

(Snickie does not happy cry by the way.)

I wanted to add a blurb on how I approach facts and opinions, but as I was typing it I became increasingly aware of the nuances that notation and syntax in determining whether a statement is a fact or an opinion.
Things like, "Bunnies are cute." Definitely an opinion since "cute" is a subjective term.
"I think bunnies are cute." It is a fact that that is what I think. It is a fact that that is my opinion. Doesn't mean bunnies are inherently cute (or ugly).
I've been aware of it for a while and sometimes it seems to me that nobody understands.
"Well your opinion is wrong." No it isn't. Opinions are by definition incapable of being wrong (or right). I could have the most disgusting and hurtful of opinions about x group of people or bunnies or whatever and, while many people would disagree (i.e. not share the same opinion and possibly opine that my opinion is something that should not be allowed in any society anywhere ever), it would and could not be wrong. Stop telling me that.
(My bad, my blurb grew.)

So what burymecloser was saying with the dismissal of such statements when beginning with "I think" and similar terms makes more sense. People have a tendency to present their opinions as facts. The syntax is often the same and one is forced to think about the nature of the words in order to distinguish which type of statement. Ti's natural reaction is to question it. "Bunnies are cute." "I saw a particularly ugly one the other day." Like the itchy sweater example. "I think bunnies are cute" immediately informs Ti that "bunnies are cute" is an opinion and therefore there is no reason to argue against it (unless that's what you like). Might also spur on Fe, at least a little bit.

See, nuances.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

I don't think this has anything to do with Ti, because I also talk like this, like ALL OF THE TIME, but I'm definitely a Te user.

I am also a Te user PG (nice to see you btw, feels like it's been a while :hi

NFP’s can strongly display inferior or shadow functions (people fear shadow functions thinking they only rear their heads in negative circumstances, but they can be utilized to great effect). ie. I know that I score strongly with Ti even though I am Te dominant = why I felt ok to interlope this thread.
[MENTION=25403]ZNP-TBA[/MENTION]

See! I didn’t need you to say “in my opinion” when you adjusted what I wrote (laughs). I willingly cede the floor. Your Ti has hierarchy in comparison to my very limited qualifications, outlined above.

Getting consciously acquainted with & developing my inferior functions is a current obsession! [MENTION=13377]pinkgraffiti[/MENTION]

This is a concise explanation of how this cognitive study works:

Cognitive Processes and Type Dynamics

So, for you PG, The deceiving role, 7th function (Ti):
"The process that fills this role is often not trusted or seen as worthy of attention, for when we do engage it, we may make mistakes in perception or in decision making. Then we feel double bound—trapped between two bad options" and also
"This function will keenly observe and remember important information which may produce opinions or behavior that is agressive or arrogant. This function does not create, but adheres to observed behavior."


Thus, I understand your statement above. At the same time also taking all of this into account: which makes it somewhat type related.


[MENTION=27560]Snickie[/MENTION] The above is relevant to your comments as well.

That's one thing that bothers me about Ti. Its descriptions are often so close to the Ne/Si dynamic that sometimes it doesn't even sound like it's its own thing.

I see from this thread how disparate descriptions can be, but with common threads in the overall tapestry. Intriguing.

I think Ti users are interested in others understanding their Ti ideas and that's why Fe is so important because without it, how can they get others to really understand. Undeveloped Fe might forget that this is important or not know how to be as tactful as the situation or person requires.

More and more I am seeing how the functions bleed into one another. ie. I found it very difficult to maintain a clear focus talking about Ni/Ne recently without also discussing Se/Si. Sensing feeds Intuition information that leads to conclusions. The way our brains process the sensing stimulation can directly affect the manner in which our Intuition operates. Your comments made me think more on this dynamic…