Psychopathy: is it real?

[á´…eparted]

Simple answer: Yes, it does exist. We created a label to describe a particular way of being. It exists just as much as when we say someone is an extrovert.

 

[Kas]

The article isn't very concrete. The trait's they found important to link artists and psychopathy (disinhibition and boldness) are common and are only two of many traits are present in disorder; can be (most often) norm or even traits of different disorder . I would agree that artist are one of groups that more commonly have these traits, but if I looked for disorders in this group , I would rather look for narcissism or BD.

I agree though that well functioning psychopaths can be very successful. It can be easier to them to make a career because they don't mind trampling over people to achieve aim.

 

[Lark]

Aye, it is.

 

[Kas]

I think psychopathy must be related more to hypersensitivity than the 'lack' of emotions.

When literature says about lack of emotions , they mean more shallow emotions, lacking empathy and poor moral sense (even inability to understand society moral norms) which make it difficult to make real bonds with other people. They are prone to relations based on their own profit.

I think "lack" is a appropriate word there.

 

[EcK]

Recently I've spotted a psychological finding, in the guise of various articles, making the rounds on Facebook.
I've traced down the epicentre:
It started with the Daily Mail online (reputable lot that they are) at 10:32 GMT, 26 April 2016.
The title:


Are YOU creative? Then you're probably a psychopath: Dark personality traits play a key role in making people more artistic
-Psychologists tested volunteers for creativity and psychopathic traits
-They found creativity was associated with emotional disinhibition
-They also found meanness and risk taking were linked to creativity
-Prosocial psychopaths seem to be the most creative individuals, they say

Here is the link.

I'll give you a minute to read that drivel.


Read it?
Here's my opinion:


1. The very label of psychopathy is severely riddled with discrepancies and bias.
Psychopathy is a fictitious, convenient term or label designed for the purposes of creating an illusory but relatively manageable all-encompassing category for certain emotionally damaged and/or deeply misunderstood individuals that have, wilfully or otherwise, hurt the ones around them.

I mean I just made up that sentence, but that's my honest-to-god opinion.

I've been accused of being both a psychopath AND an extreme wimp.
My emotional reactions are not 'normal'.
Does that make me a psychopath, then?
I have emotions. I do. And people are frightened of what I do or don't feel.
So I don't really let the real thing show too often.

I think psychopathy must be related more to hypersensitivity than the 'lack' of emotions.
Have you ever heard of a q-zombie, or a qualia zombie?
I've linked the Wikipedia description here, have a look.

I think that's what the endorsers of the term are trying to convince us the psychopaths are.
Rather than try to expand our understanding, 'they' (whoever 'they' are) are, (wilfully or otherwise,) boxing the 'misunderstood' into the non-category of being 'misunderstood'.
It's only natural that an overlap would occur between the categories of 'creative' and 'lacking'.
Their only defining characteristic is that they are 'not normal' and 'to be feared'.

1-1. The psychopath as thrill-seeking killer myth.
If they didn't have emotions, would they seek thrills at all?
Let that sink in for a bit.
If they didn't have 'emotions', how would they be motivated to do anything then?
If they really were defined by the 'absence' of emotions, the force of crushing a watermelon and the force of crushing a human skull should make no difference to them.
If they really didn't feel anything at all, what would be the point of manipulating and hurting others? Just because they 'can'?
I'd argue that, contrary to popular belief, 'psychopaths' are people who are so excruciatingly emotional that they have gradually grown fundamentally numb, shell-shocked at the pain that ensues from being in the world.
The mean ones want, subconsciously, to 'retaliate' on some level or other.
These so-called psychopaths are made, never born.

2. 'Creative' people are not 'Normal'.
Of course we aren't, and we wouldn't want to be any other way, either.



There was a train of thought somewhere there but I did lose it along the way.
I have cookies for anyone who dares to venture an opinion on this subject.

*skims*

If they didn't have emotions, would they seek thrills at all?
Let that sink in for a bit.

Noone who knows what a psychopath actually is would ever claim they have no emotions.
They do, what they lack is non cognitive empathy at any meaningful levels. In short - the default state of their affective empathy is 'off' and it requires a conscious decision for them to empathise.

Let that sink in for a bit.

I think psychopathy must be related more to hypersensitivity than the 'lack' of emotions.

no it isn't. Just please check out some neurological research on psychopathic brains. please.

Have you ever heard of a q-zombie, or a qualia zombie?

yes but again you're confusing ideas/don't know your subject material/don't go indepth in your reasoning. A 'qualia zombie' is the idea, in short that someone could act just like a conscious being but not have consciousness. That is quite different from a psychopath who can be tested OBJECTIVELY (via brain scans, via thought experiments...) and who should have enough self-knowledge, assuming average of above av. intelligence to realise that they don't really experience unwilling non cognitive (so, affective) empathy.

 

[Frosty]

Honestly, this might be paranoia but sometimes I wonder if Im a psychopath. I mean. I don't think so. But occasionally, Ill look at myself and wonder- 'how could I do that'- and sometimes I don't feel guilty per-say but just mystified.

But I mean, oftentimes-most times- I do feel guilt, to different degrees- sometimes intense degrees, so then I think that Im probably NOT a psychopath.

But I mean, in an intense fight or flight situation- I mean, in a life or death situation, I might not do the moral thing- I might put myaekf first. I mean. Yeah. Im probably not a psychopath. Its probably even a dumb thing for me to worty about. But I mean. Yeah I think they exist, and well I think its just a case of a far deviation from a norm in conscience.

Back to it later.

Yeah. Ive decided Im probably not a psychopath. Just an idiot. Hah.

I feel too guilty any time I do anything remotely psychopathy- even think about doing anything jigsaw/freddie cougar/hannibal lector/jason worthy.

Not that I ever really think about killing anyone. God no. That is a question when asked by my psychs Ive NEVER said yes to. Hurting others. No. No. No. No. No.

But like minor antisocial shit- like trolling, petty theft, rule breaking, ect... Not gunna say Ive never done it... In the past... But anything non-victimless I regret and hate that I did, and anything victimless... Even that I feel guilty about.

Anyways. This is a slight derail from the thread topic.

Though I have have I believe met people where... It just- something feels off about them. There was a girl that I worked with that... Just something about her made me squirm. Might write about it later.

Anyways. Theres my non- constructive post.

Might be back later perhaps to write more- stuff that relates more. Later. Yep.

 

[entropie]

psychopaths, sociopaths, empaths, probably some NF invention

 

[Kho]

For the more academic-minded AND/OR Sensing-oriented among you, here's an interesting article AND/OR appeal to authority that actually supports my claim of hypersensitivity being linked to clinical diagnoses of psychopathy.

Emotional Sensitivity in Psychopaths

Title:
Emotional Capacities and Sensitivity in Psychopaths

Author:
Willem H. J. Martens, MD, PhD
Director of the “W. Kahn Institute of Theoretical Psychiatry and Neuroscience.”


Abstract:
Although psychopaths demonstrate emotional abnormalities such as shallow affect, lack of empathy, incapacity for love, lack of guilt or remorse, lack of fear, and emotional processing and response deficiencies they may show normal emotional responses or emotional hypersensitive in other areas. The correlates of emotional incapacities, emotional hypersensitivity, and normal emotional activities in psychopaths are studied and discussed in this paper. Emotional hypersensitivity might be linked with: a history of neglect, rejection and abuse; insult; changes which are forced or not under control of the psychopath; obstacles that prevent the psychopath to do what he or she wants to do; narcissistic injury; broken friendships or relationship. Normal emotional functioning might be associate with grief, warm relationship, adequate attention, disease, academic and/or occupational success, impressive events, confrontations, contemplation and maturation, hidden suffering (also as a result of neurobiological determination).

Conclusion:
Psychopathy is diagnostically characterized by serious emotional deficiencies, which may interrelate with other diagnostic features such as incapacitiy for love, lack of empathy, shallow emotions, social-emotional incapacities (lack of interactional skills), pathological egocentricity, grandiose sense of self-worth, irresponsibility, impulsivity, and aggression. Despite their disturbed emotional world some psychopaths may exhibit normal emotional experiences such as normal feelings for pets, relatives, art, sports, and so on. In current and past studies the healthy aspects of emotional life in psychopaths are underexposed. It is, however of major interest to examine the etiological, psychosocial, neurobiological correlates, conditions of normal emotional functioning in different categories of psychopaths, and in what particular circumstances it can happen and flourish. It could be useful for the psychotherapist to direct towards these healthy emotional elements and try to expand or relate them to other emotional and related social and moral areas.
Emotions are hardly objectively measurable, and it is possible that psychopaths “emotional incapacities” in some cases could be better explained as fundamental different emotional functioning rather than emotionally “inferior” or affectively “cold.” Furthermore, there is some evidence that not all “pure” psychopaths demonstrate abnormal emotionality (Martens, 1997). Clear psychopaths (PCL-R scores between 30 and 40) do not necessarily meet all diagnostic features (Hare, 1991), and may show normal emotions. And some psychopaths report that they have normal emotional experiences, while they are unable to show affections (Martens, 1997). This may lead to observations of "shallow" emotions.
More research is needed into effective therapeutic stimulation of emotional development in distinctive categories psychopaths, such as violent non-sexual, violent sexual, frauds, and non-violent and non-criminal psychopaths, which are characterized by their own specific emotional abnormalities which are linked to their crimes and/or personality/behavior patterns (Martens, 1997).

It's a complex batch of abstract co-dependent thoughts that I guess I could have disentangled a bit more.
Let me break down my thought process into more manageable bullet-points, to explain:



1. Event. I saw a Daily Mail article (linked) that said:
---1-1) "creative people are more likely to be psychopaths."


2. Reaction. I disagree with the Daily Mail article. BECAUSE:
---2-1) It's dangerous to equate creativity to psychopathy. because:
---2-2) Creativity and psychopathy have only two things in common:
------- a. the ability to be 'abnormal' without fearing the repercussions or taboos.
--------b. being feared, shunned, and misunderstood by society.


3. Reason. This blatant attempt to link 'misunderstood'/ non-mainstream/ 'taboo' characteristics implies two things:
---3-1) Labels of convenience such as 'creative' or 'psychopath' are intentionally designed to control, contain, and homogenise the population.
---3-2) This would mean that: It is possible that there is no such thing as a 'psychopath'.
---------a. The label 'psychopath' is used as a means of persecution, and is not legitimate psychology in any way.
---3-3) A good way to examine the idea that there is no such thing as a psychopath is to conduct a simple thought experiment.
---------a. Imagine a being with no emotions that could act like it had emotions (a Q-zombie of emotions, in a way. I shall call her Q-zombieE.)
---------b. Imagine that there were: a watermelon and a human head in front of it.
---------c. For Q-zombieE, because she is unhampered by emotions, the purely physical impact/ force required to crush a watermelon and crushing a human skull is roughly the same.
---------d. IF Q-zombiE is unhampered by emotions, but has other faculties such as intelligence,
---------e. THEN Q-zombieE can calculate the repercussions that 'murder', labelled taboo by society, can have, as opposed to merely crushing a watermelon.
---------f. THEREFORE: a psychopath (as defined by absence of emotions: Q-zombieE) would rather be more predisposed to crushing watermelons rather than crushing human skulls.
---------f. THEREFORE: a psychopath (as defined by absence of emotions: Q-zombieE) SHOULD in fact be LESS likely, not MORE likely, to commit a crime or murder, etc, compared to the normal population.
---------g. BUT, the percentage of psychopaths in prison is much higher than the percentage of control populations in prison (I've seen statistics; have omitted this in the OP.)
---------h. This leads me to believe that there is no such thing as a psychopath.

And there was a bit more whinging about my being misunderstood and creative and all that emocore blah mixed into the bone structure of this thought process that I have delineated above.
I hope it makes more sense now. Sorry, I'm out of touch with communicating with people; thought for a moment that this forum lived in my head. It's my dysfunctional Ne. Damn you, dysfunctional Ne! *shakes fist at dysfunctional Ne*

[MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] I forgive you for being wrong because a) I was not very clear in my first post, b) you skimmed, and c) the meat of what i was wanting to say has been scattered throughout page 3.

 

[/DG/]

[MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] I forgive you for being wrong because a) I was not very clear in my first post, b) you skimmed, and c) the meat of what i was wanting to say has been scattered throughout page 3.

You know, debates tend to work better when you concisely give your point before going into details, not in just quoting large swaths of text and assuming your audience will care enough to sit through it.

 

[tkae.]

If by psychopathy you mean sociopathy, that's been revamped in the modern DSM issues as Antisocial Personality Disorder. No clinician uses "psychopath" anymore, and the only ones who use sociopath either don't feel like saying anti-social personality disorder (because it's a mouthful after the third time of saying it) or were around before it was changed (DSM 4 I think? So 1990ish).

Which has nothing to do with creativity.

The basic error here is confusing correlation with causation. This is from the article:

•Study 1: Narcissism and Psychopathy were positively correlated with CAQ scores.
•Study 2: Psychopathic Boldness was positively correlated with CAQ scores.
•Study 3: SCR during the IGT was negatively correlated with divergent thinking.
•Results support the claim that emotional disinhibition is related to creativity.

I'll ignore the fact that these researchers are from a dinky university in the Phillipines, and get straight to the point that any two statistical frequencies that are compared have a correlation. Correlation is the degree of relationship between two things. There's a correlation between the number of stars in the sky and number of murders in Cabot Cove if I compared those two numbers. Correlations do not necessarily mean the relationship is meaningful, and absolutely do not mean causation.

EDIT: Also fun little retard moment from the article:

The researchers said traits they detected tended to be more matched with prosocial psychopaths than the antisocial model of the condition.

"Prosocial psychopath" is an oxymoron. It flies in the face of everything we know about antisocial personality disorder, and exposes how ridiculous their methodology was when they tried to parse out "psychopathic" traits from those other inconvenient things "such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and autism."

They set up a method that proved itself. That's bad research.

 

[Kho]

I'm not sure quite how to repeat myself in so many ways.
I corrected many of the initial omissions in the OP,
so if someone is to just comment on the OP without checking through the thread,
I'm not sure there's much else I can do except to show them what they failed to see,.
I already said everything I want/need to say, and [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] himself said he skimmed.

e.g.
He said: "no it isn't. Just please check out some neurological research on psychopathic brains. please."
-> I did exactly that. And I quoted a scientific study doing exactly that. That is what I provided. Everything is already there in the information I presented.
If he had argued against the information I'd provided, I'd happily address that in a debate format.
But he essentially accused me of not providing enough information or not doing my research. That is a falsehood. I am pointing that out.

I don't need to spoon-feed info to people every time they fail to see something; I like to think people are smarter than that.

- - - Updated - - -

Snap, I can't edit my posts today for some reason. The above post was for [MENTION=6554]/DG/[/MENTION]

 

[Kho]

If by psychopathy you mean sociopathy, that's been revamped in the modern DSM issues as Antisocial Personality Disorder. No clinician uses "psychopath" anymore, and the only ones who use sociopath either don't feel like saying anti-social personality disorder (because it's a mouthful after the third time of saying it) or were around before it was changed (DSM 4 I think? So 1990ish).

Which has nothing to do with creativity.

The basic error here is confusing correlation with causation. This is from the article:



I'll ignore the fact that these researchers are from a dinky university in the Phillipines, and get straight to the point that any two statistical frequencies that are compared have a correlation. Correlation is the degree of relationship between two things. There's a correlation between the number of stars in the sky and number of murders in Cabot Cove if I compared those two numbers. Correlations do not necessarily mean the relationship is meaningful, and absolutely do not mean causation.

EDIT: Also fun little retard moment from the article:



"Prosocial psychopath" is an oxymoron. It flies in the face of everything we know about antisocial personality disorder, and exposes how ridiculous their methodology was when they tried to parse out "psychopathic" traits from those other inconvenient things "such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and autism."

They set up a method that proved itself. That's bad research.

I like how they seem not to know that correlation in itself doesn't really prove anything, in particular.
Cue fun little site dedicated to strange and wild correlations: Age of Miss America correlates with Murders by steam, hot vapours and hot objects
Apparently:

Age of Miss America
correlates with
Murders by steam, hot vapours and hot objects

and

Sunlight in California
inversely correlates with
Online revenue on Black Friday

but statistical correlation really has not much to do with proving causality or anything of the sort.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I think if you're wondering if you are a psychopath you probably aren't [MENTION=24643]Frosty[/MENTION]

A psychopath probably wouldn't be overly concerned with what they are, unless it feeds their ego. Even then, it isn't introspective. It is self-serving.

They are probably more concerned with what they want and how to get it.

 

[five sounds]

Brb using this for everything

 

[Lark]

Yeah, its real, there's other sorts of learning disabilities too but this one seems to be popularly valourised or envied or something, madness.

 

[Lark]

I think if you're wondering if you are a psychopath you probably aren't [MENTION=24643]Frosty[/MENTION]

A psychopath probably wouldn't be overly concerned with what they are, unless it feeds their ego. Even then, it isn't introspective. It is self-serving.

They are probably more concerned with what they want and how to get it.

Also may be more likely to be a sociopath than a true psychopath and narcissists are more common than either of those.

Narcissists are highly psychologically deployed and defensive individuals who can not face their pathetic reality or crushingly low self esteem, so much so they will construct grand illusions about themselves, others etc.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Also may be more likely to be a sociopath than a true psychopath and narcissists are more common than either of those.

Narcissists are highly psychologically deployed and defensive individuals who can not face their pathetic reality or crushingly low self esteem, so much so they will construct grand illusions about themselves, others etc.

Psychopath/sociopath are general terms. Technically, they would both fall under "anti-social personality disorder" in the DSMV and there can be overlapping tendencies (narcissism, schizoid, etc) displayed in each.

 

[Cellmold]

 

[Lark]

Psychopath/sociopath are general terms. Technically, they would both fall under "anti-social personality disorder" in the DSMV and there can be overlapping tendencies (narcissism, schizoid, etc) displayed in each.

Sure, there's overlaps but I refuse to believe there's as many sociopaths and psychopaths as popular culture makes out, there's no evolutionary reason to select for that that, on the other hand I would say that the contact between universal developmental drives and the social matrices of the given social order in late capitalism and you got a lot of narcissists, schizoids etc. who're more likely to post as psychopaths/sociopaths because, bizarrely, its some how less taboo.

Anyway, as you say, they're all disorders, which to me seems a little like deciding it'd be great to be autistic or learning impaired in some other way, I'm not hating on those disorders, I'm only saying those are the sort of things people do not decide are desirable versus the sociopathy/psychopathy which people seem to think is desirable for whatever mad reason.

 

[Betty Blue]

I'm not sure quite how to repeat myself in so many ways.
I corrected many of the initial omissions in the OP,
so if someone is to just comment on the OP without checking through the thread,
I'm not sure there's much else I can do except to show them what they failed to see,.
I already said everything I want/need to say, and [MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] himself said he skimmed.

e.g.
He said: "no it isn't. Just please check out some neurological research on psychopathic brains. please."
-> I did exactly that. And I quoted a scientific study doing exactly that. That is what I provided. Everything is already there in the information I presented.
If he had argued against the information I'd provided, I'd happily address that in a debate format.
But he essentially accused me of not providing enough information or not doing my research. That is a falsehood. I am pointing that out.

I don't need to spoon-feed info to people every time they fail to see something; I like to think people are smarter than that.

- - - Updated - - -

Snap, I can't edit my posts today for some reason. The above post was for [MENTION=6554]/DG/[/MENTION]

Just to address the bolded. If you want to have a constructive argument you need to present the OP well. If you have corrected in following posts that is not helpful to anyone new to the thread as the OP is the start point from which all else stems. Basically you need to go back to the drawing board and redraw your picture. It's that simple. I looked at your OP and not much else. I'm am in disagreement on many levels with your op, I have zero desire to sift through to find posts of yours that are supposed to be better constructed. Go back to base and correct your mistakes if you want to get taken seriously.


EDIT: Just a really basic point here. Psychopaths do not have a lack of emotions, they have a lack of empathy. They are perfectly capable of feeling a broad range of emotions and can be thrill seeking or not.