How to add Ti to my Fi

[Florence Atley]

Hmmm... I'm not sure I quote people or use personal experiences in the context of debating.

So, when I'm most in my element, I'm debating with flexible thinkers who discuss theoretical possibilities and then tentatively choose the one that seems most likely, rather than thinking in terms of absolute truths. In that case, I persuade by discussing how my reasoning is the most likely to lead to the desired outcome. I use lots of analogies and stuff based on other principles to show how I see the situation playing out, and then suggest my opinion of the most effective solution. (what is your opinion - if this makes any sense whatsoever - does this sound like Si Se Ni Ne?)

Unfortunately, I tend to be surrounded by people who think in theoretical absolutes (definitely not positivism, which would be easier) based on purely logical deduction. Anything besides logical deduction (especially my metaphors, assumptions and comparisons to other things) is usually seen by them as flawed reasoning. Logical thinking and deduction is what I'd like to grow in, I'm just not sure what the best way is to go about it.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

[MENTION=25377]SearchingforPeace[/MENTION]: so do you think in free-association (if that's the right word - do you know what I'm talking about)? If so, how do you explain your "aha realizations" so that other people understand why you believe the way that you do? Most of the people in my life are super skeptical about new information, especially if it is from a seeming romantic ditz like myself. How do you explain your thoughts so that people can challenge you based on what you're saying instead of what you appear to be saying, and how do you fill in the blanks between the dots in your thinking so they can determine the validity of your claims?

Rough one. It is so hard explaining how I got to x, if I try to use reason and logic. Sometimes you just have correct answers. Fe is a very confident function. It gives off a sense of certainty. The words sound correct. People want to trust you.

Sometimes it is better to not give everything you have. I tend to hold back in real life. Most people don't want to know truths, especially about themselves.

But as you accept Fe, people will realize that you do understand things without having to go through the steps.

And dealing with those concrete thinkers is tough. Sometimes you just need to wait for them to ask....... and let them fail.....

 

[Florence Atley]

I know just what you mean! Hopefully this doesn't sound arrogant, but I really don't feel any need for the logical side of things. I'm already efficient enough at drawing correct conclusions, and I'd rather work at fun stuff like writing books and discussing time travel. I'm just such a ridiculous over-achiever it's making me crazy that they think I'm such a flake! Plus, I don't want to miss out on interesting discussions with people who use deductive reasoning. I just totally don't get how they think. I asked an INTJ about it, but he has a really hard time explaining the big picture to me and I keep getting lost in all his details.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Hi! So, apparently my Fe (my automatic system of observations becoming beliefs through trusting unconscious patterns which generally hold to be true) is so dominate I barely have any Ti at all (intentional linear thinking and logical deduction). For the record, I think my Te is pretty healthy, it's the Ti that seems to be the problem. I know that Fe might always be my automatic operating system, but I desperately need to grow in Ti so that I'm not so... detached and confusing? I'm hoping Ti types might be able to give me a few pointers:

I'm not sure what you mean by intentional linear thinking. Can you give an example?

1. Is philosophy the best way to grow in logical reasoning?

It was for me.

2. Is Ti automatic and unconscious, or do you take specific steps while using linear thinking?

No, it's rational thinking and I'm cognizant of it. It's like if A=B and B=C then A=C. I don't just 'know' A=C unless it's experientially true ( I've seen the equation many times for example).

3. What would be the first step when using Ti to answer a question?

Depends on the question but "Why?" usually suffices.

4. With Ti, how do you know you have achieved a satisfactory conclusion?

The conclusion is consistent and doesn't hold or imply contradictions.

5. With Ti, are you more confident in your assertions, or are you more curious to have the issue challenged again to refine it?

Relatively confident if my claim is internally consistent and non-contradictory. I'm an Ne dom so I'm always curious to a new perspective challenging my current knowledge.

6. Is Ti specifically details build the big picture, or can Ti be used starting with the big picture then breaking it down to analyze it?

The "breaking it down" and "analyzing" through logical reasoning is the Ti part. Seeing the vast tapestry of the big picture is intuition(mostly).

Thanks in advance! <3

por nada <3

 

[Florence Atley]

I'm not sure what you mean by intentional linear thinking. Can you give an example?

Thanks for the honest answers. I'm endlessly curious about this subject. So I guess I'll have to keep at those terribly beautiful and painfully maddening philosophy texts if it's really going to get me where I'm trying to go.

The intentional linear thinking I was getting at was your answer to question #2. You've confirmed my suspicion that I'm going to have to hunker down with a propositional logic book for a while, LOL! I think the hardest thing for me about logic is that I can't start from the big picture. It is so so easy for me to get something if I can get a clear image of the entirety of the thing first. It's darn near impossible for me if I have to keep a bunch of little pieces in my head until it all comes together and makes sense.

Not that I have a bad memory or anything -- I studied a free computer programming course for fun once, and I loved sitting around writing code and looking for the missing pieces when the image didn't come out right. That's fun like a relaxing puzzle because it's black and white basic information. But once I try examining details that supposedly point to a theoretical or ethical issue, my brain is too excited to slow down and pay attention using the slow (perhaps smarter) way of building up rather than breaking down. I know that supposedly building up to a complex theory using logic IS using little pieces of black and white logic, but it's hard to focus when my brain keeps wanting to prematurely attach value statements to each of those little pieces.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Thanks for the honest answers. I'm endlessly curious about this subject. So I guess I'll have to keep at those terribly beautiful and painfully maddening philosophy texts if it's really going to get me where I'm trying to go.

The intentional linear thinking I was getting at was your answer to question #2. You've confirmed my suspicion that I'm going to have to hunker down with a propositional logic book for a while, LOL! I think the hardest thing for me about logic is that I can't start from the big picture. It is so so easy for me to get something if I can get a clear image of the entirety of the thing first. It's darn near impossible for me if I have to keep a bunch of little pieces in my head until it all comes together and makes sense.

Not that I have a bad memory or anything -- I studied a free computer programming course for fun once, and I loved sitting around writing code and looking for the missing pieces when the image didn't come out right. That's fun like a relaxing puzzle because it's black and white basic information. But once I try examining details that supposedly point to a theoretical or ethical issue, my brain is too excited to slow down and pay attention using the slow (perhaps smarter) way of building up rather than breaking down. I know that supposedly building up to a complex theory using logic IS using little pieces of black and white logic, but it's hard to focus when my brain keeps wanting to prematurely attach value statements to each of those little pieces.

All very NFJ.

You mentioned the group of people you interact with a few times, as well as your difficulties with your husband in another thread. Any idea as to types?

 

[Florence Atley]

I would guess most people in my life are more along the STJ variety. Super super literal, super super heady. They love me, but they honestly don't understand a single word that comes out of my mouth. It's a testament to their patience that they still humor me at this point.

My husband is an INTJ who might have been closer to ENTP when he was younger. I've picked his mind countless times about how he thinks, and he loves talking about it but he totally loses me and gets frustrated when I try to use analogies to understand what he's talking about On most other things, though, he usually knows what I am saying more than most people. I think it's the Ni.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I would guess most people in my life are more along the STJ variety. Super super practical, super super heady. My husband is an INTJ who might have been closer to ENTP when he was younger. I've picked his mind countless times about how he thinks, and he loves talking about it but he totally loses me and gets frustrated when I try to use analogies to understand what he's talking about

So they all speak Te. You don't speak Te. They don't speak Ti. Speaking Te is Sargent Joe Friday, "just the facts ma'am." Blunt, direct talk, no niceties, no structuring the language for audience.

Ti is accuracy, Te is efficiency.

Everything your husband says will sound harsh to you. I know the problem is one I have experienced, as my wife speaks Te. For years, I thought she was verbally abusive, and she was in part, but much of it was me misunderstanding her talking with Fi through Te.

Te does not care about the impact of words on the audience. It isn't being hurtful intentionally, just clueless as to the impact for the most part.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

So they all speak Te. You don't speak Te. They don't speak Ti. Speaking Te is Sargent Joe Friday, "just the facts ma'am." Blunt, direct talk, no niceties, no structuring the language for audience.

Ti is accuracy, Te is efficiency.

Everything your husband says will sound harsh to you. I know the problem is one I have experienced, as my wife speaks Te. For years, I thought she was verbally abusive, and she was in part, but much of it was me misunderstanding her talking with Fi through Te.

Te does not care about the impact of words on the audience. It isn't being hurtful intentionally, just clueless as to the impact for the most part.

I think.....that I grew up doing Ni/Ti more than anything else. Then I learned how to Te/Fe. And since my dad was a bio esfj, I got Fe through him. Fi i don't like much (as far as I know). So if I add them all up, I get Ti/Fe/Te Fi

That might be why I have such a T flavor, but can be very Fe when I need or want to be.?

 

[Florence Atley]

So they all speak Te. You don't speak Te. They don't speak Ti. Speaking Te is Sargent Joe Friday, "just the facts ma'am." Blunt, direct talk, no niceties, no structuring the language for audience.

Ti is accuracy, Te is efficiency.

Everything your husband says will sound harsh to you. I know the problem is one I have experienced, as my wife speaks Te. For years, I thought she was verbally abusive, and she was in part, but much of it was me misunderstanding her talking with Fi through Te.

Te does not care about the impact of words on the audience. It isn't being hurtful intentionally, just clueless as to the impact for the most part.

Thank you so much, yet again! You're super good at explaining these things in concise ways! I keep misunderstanding The Fi Fe Ti Te, and you keep doing me a solid. Thanks!

I do know what you mean about Te sounding harsh. But I kind of like that about him. Everyone sugar coats things too much, and social customs get so stale. I am super super sensitive, but it is for that reason that I almost never get my feelings hurt unless someone does it on purpose. I'm also oblivious to compliments. I learned very early in childhood that when I think someone is directing a particular sentiment at me, I usually blow it out of proportion thinking it's bigger than it is. So when people are feeling in general I can tell right away, but if they're directing a sentiment specifically at me I'm normally oblivious. Also, since I'm so careful all the time not to hurt peoples' feelings, it's actually kind of refreshing to be around someone who doesn't worry about that. I kind of soak up their calm nature when I'm around them, if that makes sense. If anything, I don't get bent out of shape unless someone won't give me space when I ask them to or if they directly tell me that my abilities lack value.

 

[Florence Atley]

I think.....that I grew up doing Ni/Ti more than anything else. Then I learned how to Te/Fe. And since my dad was a bio esfj, I got Fe through him. Fi i don't like much (as far as I know). So if I add them all up, I get Ti/Fe/Te Fi

That might be why I have such a T flavor, but can be very Fe when I need or want to be.?

That's so cool! I wondered if our personality temperament changed as we learn and grow. I've always been heaviest on the NiFe, but my Dad was super super Te, and I thank goodness for that because otherwise I worry I wouldn't be suited for much more than skipping through flowers and geeking out over old Twilight Zone episodes.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

That's so cool! I wondered if our personality temperament changed as we learn and grow. I've always been heaviest on the NiFe, but my Dad was super super Te, and I thank goodness for that because otherwise I worry I wouldn't be suited for much more than skipping through flowers and geeking out over old Twilight Zone episodes.

I think....mine changes depending on my environment. Like a chameleon.

Different facets of me are called forth and awakened. And they respond to certain people. I have to be very strong right now. And I am innately inhumanly strong in some ways.

And I think that is why I am now testing ENTJ...

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Thank you so much, yet again! You're super good at explaining these things in concise ways! I keep misunderstanding The Fi Fe Ti Te, and you keep doing me a solid. Thanks!

You are getting the benefits of very hard-won understanding....

I do know what you mean about Te sounding harsh. But I kind of like that about him. Everyone sugar coats things too much, and social customs get so stale. I am super super sensitive, but it is for that reason that I almost never get my feelings hurt unless someone does it on purpose. I'm also oblivious to compliments. I learned very early in childhood that when I think someone is directing a particular sentiment at me, I usually blow it out of proportion thinking it's bigger than it is. So when people are feeling in general I can tell right away, but if they're directing a sentiment specifically at me I'm normally oblivious. Also, since I'm so careful all the time not to hurt peoples' feelings, it's actually kind of refreshing to be around someone who doesn't worry about that. I kind of soak up their calm nature when I'm around them, if that makes sense. If anything, I don't get bent out of shape unless someone won't give me space when I ask them to or if they directly tell me that my abilities lack value.

You are far better off than me. I learned through years of very difficult experience. Plus you guys share Ni Se, so you have common ways of looking at the world.

The key factor is assuming good intentions even with harsh language. And realizing that your nuance, analogies, and such will be Greek to him....

So, just work on maxing your NiFe. It is the true you and should give you peace and confidence, no matter the circumstances. Fe can motivate others.

 

[Florence Atley]

[MENTION=6336]AphroditeGoneAwry[/MENTION] - I totally know what you mean!! Most of the time when I get around other people, I kind of pick up on their energy and run with it. I have had so many kinds of friends over the years, and often I have different groups to satisfy different... cravings. Like I've got my nerdy friends to be smart and cozy, my skateboard friends to be free and live in the moment, my hipster friends for politics, absurd fashion and punk rock... I just love getting out of my own head for a while. The problem is if I get stressed and stay by myself too much, I kind of get overly calculating and forget how to feel... Kind of like people are water and I'm a sponge that gets gross and crusty if I dry out too much.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

[MENTION=6336]AphroditeGoneAwry[/MENTION] - I totally know what you mean!! Most of the time when I get around other people, I kind of pick up on their energy and run with it. I have had so many kinds of friends over the years, and often I have different groups to satisfy different... cravings. Like I've got my nerdy friends to be smart and cozy, my skateboard friends to be free and live in the moment, my hipster friends for politics, absurd fashion and punk rock... I just love getting out of my own head for a while. The problem is if I get stressed and stay by myself too much, I kind of get overly calculating and forget how to feel... Kind of like people are water and I'm a sponge that gets gross and crusty if I dry out too much.

I had my very different groups of friends growing up and few overlapped at all.

Your need for interaction sounds pretty E to my ears..... your stress problem sounds just like a ENFJ in the grip (inf Ti) and your recovery mode to "get out of your head", is text book Se.

I tested as a INFJ for a bit until people here helped me see myself differently. Read this recognizing-inferior-function-enfjs to see if you relate.

Here is the INFJ one to compare.

ENFJs and INFJs are pretty close and I was in the grip for many years thinking I was a ISTP....but the way I live is very ENFJ....

 

[Florence Atley]

Your need for interaction sounds pretty E to my ears..... your stress problem sounds just like a ENFJ in the grip (inf Ti) and your recovery mode to "get out of your head", is text book Se.

Whoa. Reading the INFJ in the 'grip' of inferior function, and it is - once again - scary accurate.

Again, I'm really glad for the link. As for the ENFJ, that link doesn't seem to fit at all. They seem to be comfortable discussing feelings and interpersonal stuff which has always been my kryptonite. I'd love to be a peace-maker, but I'm happiest plotting large-scale utopian efforts in the privacy of my all-consuming internal workspace like a crazy librarian or something. I get drained and tense within 5 minutes of discussing personal specifics or 'mundane' day-to-day stuff. And if the conversation goes too long or if the person is giving off any kind of weird vibes, I revert to my natural state which makes Woody Allen look good (not hard to do in my opinion, but you get the idea). I do gain energy from crowds, especially when I'm absorbing rather than talking, like at a show. I also get energy from super confident and adventurous people (because I'm not at all), and from a small group of friends who mutually enjoy creating and refining ideas about various stuff and making inappropriate jokes. But I really only need to see people once a month to feel healthy, and much more than once a week and I start tweaking out a little.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Whoa. Reading the INFJ in the 'grip' of inferior function, and it is - once again - scary accurate.

Again, I'm really glad for the link. As for the ENFJ, that link doesn't seem to fit at all. They seem to be comfortable discussing feelings and interpersonal stuff which has always been my kryptonite. I'd love to be a peace-maker, but I'm happiest plotting large-scale utopian efforts in the privacy of my all-consuming internal workspace like a crazy librarian or something. I get drained and tense within 5 minutes of discussing personal specifics or 'mundane' day-to-day stuff. And if the conversation goes too long or if the person is giving off any kind of weird vibes, I revert to my natural state which makes Woody Allen look good (not hard to do in my opinion, but you get the idea). I do gain energy from crowds, especially when I'm absorbing rather than talking, like at a show. I also get energy from super confident and adventurous people (because I'm not at all), and from a small group of friends who mutually enjoy creating and refining ideas about various stuff and making inappropriate jokes. But I really only need to see people once a month to feel healthy, and much more than once a week and I start tweaking out a little.

Ah, the energy of a crowd is so powerful. Just amazing.

Ah, I would be happy chatting up the world everyday, oh, I try to do so. I retreat into isolation under the influence of inf Ti.... and it sucks..

 

[Florence Atley]

LOL! I feel dumb because I'm socially awkward and like being alone when my mission in life is to help other people. But I've come to terms with the fact that I'm better at helping most people primarily through artworks... instead of with my presence. And as long as I get to hide out for most of the month, I'm bursting with energy and surprisingly thrive when I finally get into public. I do know one person who energizes me when seeing them more than once a week, but that hardly qualifies as being a skilled people person

 

[INTP]

Hi! So, apparently my Fe (my automatic system of observations becoming beliefs through trusting unconscious patterns which generally hold to be true) is so dominate I barely have any Ti at all (intentional linear thinking and logical deduction). For the record, I think my Te is pretty healthy, it's the Ti that seems to be the problem. I know that Fe might always be my automatic operating system, but I desperately need to grow in Ti so that I'm not so... detached and confusing? I'm hoping Ti types might be able to give me a few pointers:

1. Is philosophy the best way to grow in logical reasoning?
2. Is Ti automatic and unconscious, or do you take specific steps while using linear thinking?
3. What would be the first step when using Ti to answer a question?
4. With Ti, how do you know you have achieved a satisfactory conclusion?
5. With Ti, are you more confident in your assertions, or are you more curious to have the issue challenged again to refine it?
6. Is Ti specifically details build the big picture, or can Ti be used starting with the big picture then breaking it down to analyze it?

Thanks in advance! <3

First of all you dont use Fi if you are an infj. Infjs use F in extraverted attitude, not introverted.

There are two reasons why a function can work automatically. First one being that you are so fluent(usually with dom function) on it that some of the processing is done so fast that your conscious mind only picks up half way. Sort of when you first start to read vs when you have been reading for years. First you need to be very conscious about all letters, but when you are fluent on it, much of it is done automatically. Second reason is that its so little developed that you are not even conscious of it.

Thinking function defines and tells what a thing is based on logical qualities and reasoning. Introverted thinking attitude means that you trust you own analysis more than information given to you IF your own analysis makes more sense to you(and also evaluate more if it makes sense to you). Also there is sort of initial mistrust to given info, it needs to make sense to you before accepting the info. Extraverted thinking is sort of more shallow, like if it seems to work in the real world, it must be true end of analysis, Ti needs to know more in depth why it works(for it to make sense to you). Also Te trusts given info more readily if it comes from trusted source, Ti user(especially Ti dom doesent care where the info comes from so much, but cares more if it doesent seem to be reasonable).

I know i have made satisfactory conclusion if it makes sense and i cant think of any alternative possibilities that would make more sense. Ofc it helps if i have some external data to back up my analysis.

I dont believe in ultimate truths, therefore if someone presents an alternative view to my analysis and it makes more sense, then that option becomes the new most likely truth.

Ps. Anyone who says that you use Fi doesent follow mbti or jungian theory, but some newer theories that i have deemed bullshit after years of research on the topic.

 

[giorgaros2]

Everyone can use all the functions but one person uses only 4 consciously and the other 4 unconsciously what that means is that you can use the other 4 functions when you are in auto - pilot mode(the introverted ones at least) for example i use Ni many times when daydreaming but i am ENTP , also i use Fi sometimes when i am upset but i dont realize i do so and if i realize i try to supress it and process things logically (switch to Ti).