Ns are smarter than Ss?!

[miss fortune]

I just tell people I'm French when it happens.
Though I got better at it. I used to swear like a sailor. Ok not as bad but still. It was to the point where people who spent time with me started swearing as well

I think it's related to how I've learnt English - by watching movies such as Pulp Fiction

a couple of us were discussing a while back that it seems to be our little age group who is the best at swearing... and then reflected back on what movies we watched in our teens and it all made sense

 

[IZthe411]

Well that's another issue I've also had. When you become 'mr knows everything' and people expect you to just fix with everything, always have an answer etc.
As a P it pains me to have to organize other people's work because it's already a challenge for me.

And the most effective way of doing so in the long run is probably documentation. But if i started making documentation I would probably try to make the 'perfect documentation' and spend 10 times more time than needed etc. .

I find I prefer to work with people who are already highly skilled and use the minimum of documentation needed.
For example, in a web project. The difference between a smart developer and a dumb one might be as much as 30/70% more work for me (making documentation about obvious stuff, having to make corrections and fixes on common sense stuff, having to code it myself because of the deadline and the time it takes to just explain something etc.)

My dream devs just need a doc with all relevant login/pass, design, a scrum planning, a 30 min chat tops. Maybe set it up on invision. And actually tell me if something should be changed.

Annoying devs will need: a freaking GANT CHART as if we're in the 80ies, documentation noone will ever read, a map of how pages are connected on the site (despite already having an invision link). I will make him a list of plugins he can use - he will ignore it and not animate the site properly. They will either complain about some technical stuff they don't agree with (instead of just telling me what they think we should change so I can get it approved right away) or WORSE : they'll make it that way and let me know 3 months later than 1 week could have been saved if done slightly differently as they already had code ready for that. Or use previously developed code without asking me - then complain when I tell them that this was a core feature which could NOT be modified.


Client will not be fully satisfied and end up 'changing' quite a few things on the site. Dev will be pissed off that I'm asking for quality and how dare I ask for 4 more hours of changes on the site after he only added 40 hours to my workload. etc.

It makes me want to kill.

There are few jobs out there where you are not required to document. Especially with the likes of Enron, Bernie Madoff and litigation crazy folks. It sucks the life out of anything

 

[westrom]

More usually than S. Yes.

 

[EcK]

There are few jobs out there where you are not required to document. Especially with the likes of Enron, Bernie Madoff and litigation crazy folks. It sucks the life out of anything

It makes my eyes bleed

 

[reckful]

I don't own the book, but he is a meticulous researcher. You should be able to find the data.... read the book anyway....it really made the whole success thing look a lot more based upon seemingly random facts than on individual talent, focus, and desire.

Malcolm Fucking Gladwell is a "meticulous researcher"???

You have got to be kidding me.

Gladwell's a glib, shallow gadfly, and when "meticulous researchers" call him on his bullshit, he tells them they don't understand, he's a storyteller, not a scientist.

You may want to take a look at this.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Malcolm Fucking Gladwell is a "meticulous researcher"???

You have got to be kidding me.

Gladwell's a glib, shallow gadfly, and when "meticulous researchers" call him on his bullshit, he tells them they don't understand, he's a storyteller, not a scientist.

You may want to take a look at this.

In the NFJ style. He has the data, but draws conclusions further out than others might. It doesn't discount his conclusions....

 

[Poki]

In the NFJ style. He has the data, but draws conclusions further out than others might. It doesn't discount his conclusions....

Conclusions or assumptions. One is aware it's a possibility, other treats it more as fact.

 

[EcK]

In the NFJ style. He has the data, but draws conclusions further out than others might. It doesn't discount his conclusions....

Well. in this case, yes it would. If you somehow imply that 'there is no benefit' in something where there is. You're misguiding your readers to make a point that is not backed up by fact.

If you are not aware of it: the quality of your work is questionable and it should probably be disregarded.

If you are aware of it: you are .. lying/manipulating your readership. In pure NFJ style
[MENTION=12103]Poki[/MENTION] - seconded
[MENTION=18736]reckful[/MENTION] - I should have started with this. I had a look at the article you linked and it did kind of confirm my suspicions. I can usually tell unsound arguments from miles away by only hearing 1/2 claims out of the whole (human brains are awesome at pattern recognition). And that one stank like a 3-week corpse. It is unfortunate most people seem more interested in pretty stories (usually the ones gently petting their egos) than facts.

 

[Forever]

Why does this thread exist...

 

[EcK]

Why does this thread exist...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

 

[Forever]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

 

[Sil]

From what I understand, Ns excel in areas that require a focus on abstraction. S types excel in areas that require application of abstraction.

Smart/intelligence doesn't come into play with the MBTI theory since it's about how people process information, not necessarily if they retain it or extrapolate on it.

 

[EcK]

From what I understand, Ns excel in areas that require a focus on abstraction. S types excel in areas that require application of abstraction.

Smart/intelligence doesn't come into play with the MBTI theory since it's about how people process information, not necessarily if they retain it or extrapolate on it.

Correction: they don't as a whole excel. They have a preference for. Mbti is nkt a test of relative skills

On the topic of intelligence: this thread discussed the correlations. On average. Between type and traits relative to intelligence.
Such a correlation exists

 

[Sil]

Correction: they don't as a whole excel. They have a preference for. Mbti is nkt a test of relative skills

Ah. True. My word choice was too strong.

Preference is better. Thanks for the note.

 

[Sil]

On the topic of intelligence: this thread discussed the correlations. On average. Between type and traits relative to intelligence.
Such a correlation exists

I can see this. Most tests aren't testing for real world application, so it makes sense why Ns would excel in intelligence tests.

I'd guess if there's a test S types would do better at, it would be the Japanese bar exam. Or perhaps fields tests in general.

On a side note, my keys sound rather clacky. Gotta fix this.

 

[EcK]

I can see this. Most tests aren't testing for real world application, so it makes sense why Ns would excel in intelligence tests.

I'd guess if there's a test S types would do better at, it would be the Japanese bar exam. Or perhaps fields tests in general.

On a side note, my keys sound rather clacky. Gotta fix this.

Well. I don't think you're necessarily seeing it from the right perspective. First off, I agree with you that N traits are more 'intellectual' etc.

However. IQ does not test for abstract thought - in fact all the IQ tests are pretty concrete (rotate things in 3d, define a term, find the missing piece, complete the series, find the odd one off...).
Secondly, IQ is correlated with more than how you think, it's highly correlated with higher brain mass, higher brain myelination (directly linked to signal quality/activation pattern complexity/conductivity/energy efficiency in the brain) etc. etc.

If Ns, on average, are several times more likely to be in the 130+ iq class it would also hint at the fact that they are likely, on average also exhibiting the traits that seem highly correlated with IQ such as:
larger brains, higher myelination etc. (yes i'm repeating myself).

Now frankly i don't think that being and N or and S is THAT relevant to iq, except as an emergent property of how personalities of higher intelligence individuals tend to develop. Which is interesting when considered with all the other data we have, but not as a single 'key' datum in a vacuum, which it is not.

 

[Poki]

Well. I don't think you're necessarily seeing it from the right perspective. First off, I agree with you that N traits are more 'intellectual' etc.

However. IQ does not test for abstract thought - in fact all the IQ tests are pretty concrete (rotate things in 3d, define a term, find the missing piece, complete the series, find the odd one off...).
Secondly, IQ is correlated with more than how you think, it's highly correlated with higher brain mass, higher brain myelination (directly linked to signal quality/activation pattern complexity/conductivity/energy efficiency in the brain) etc. etc.

If Ns, on average, are several times more likely to be in the 130+ iq class it would also hint at the fact that they are likely, on average also exhibiting the traits that seem highly correlated with IQ such as:
larger brains, higher myelination etc. (yes i'm repeating myself).

Now frankly i don't think that being and N or and S is THAT relevant to iq, except as an emergent property of how personalities of higher intelligence individuals tend to develop. Which is interesting when considered with all the other data we have, but not as a single 'key' datum in a vacuum, which it is not.

But abstraction requires implementation or its nothing but a possible idea similiar to a theory. The best abstract idea doesn't encompass the details to actually implement it.

N's are intellectual in a different area then Ss. I know lots of book smart S and abstract smart N's that can't put it to action because they havnt learned how to actually integrate "intellectual" into the world. Application of knowledge is intellectual imo as well. The difference between an engineer and technician. They both operate off of known data. In is just real world while other is from books. Difference between a Prentice towards master and high school education to phd. Different learning style, different data, both intellectual and intelligent.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Also a valid argument. Though I think 'cash' obsession is based on multiple factors.

For example: I don't really 'care' about money. But I do care about achievement. I am more capable than the average guy (ie: in my experience I can equate or surpass someone's skill in a professional field applying less effort that they did).

Combine the two and I tend to have a greater ability to generate cash than average. Though my being an ENTP is certainly a handicap.

But take your average cliché high achieving estj with a decent iq and education. While (on average) I consider most of them to be soulless uninventive corporate drone they tend to get to the top. (I do respect smart estjs though)

Same, and to a greater degree, with ENTJs.

We're only talking about correlations here at the end of the day.

You can't even really correlate IQ with MBTI because there's no actual method to measure MBTI's theory of cognition. Just about all of it is armchair guessing based on some stereotypical questions that have not been tested for thoroughness or reliability. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy brainstorming MBTI stuff but I pause to take it really seriously.

 

[EcK]

But abstraction requires implementation or its nothing but a possible idea similiar to a theory. The best abstract idea doesn't encompass the details to actually implement it.

N's are intellectual in a different area then Ss. I know lots of book smart S and abstract smart N's that can't put it to action because they havnt learned how to actually integrate "intellectual" into the world. Application of knowledge is intellectual imo as well. The difference between an engineer and technician. They both operate off of known data. In is just real world while other is from books. Difference between a Prentice towards master and high school education to phd. Different learning style, different data, both intellectual and intelligent.

Well I never said anything to the contrary in my post.
What I said is that IQ tests don't really test for abstraction in itself. And that there seems to be some reason that 'Ns' is highly correlated with high iq (I never implied it was a causal and/or exclusive relationship).
As to you being an ISTP, or any other S. I really couldn't care less if someone is an S, an N or a Z. These are just their preferences, not an appraisal of their skill and general intelligence.

Statistics are of course useful but they break down at the individual level. So while yes, on average, people who self assess as S are of lower intelligence (ie: here, IQ) than self assessed Ns for whatever reason, you for example are certainly much more intelligent than the average S or N and - I know it's not 'PC' to say so - so Am I.

Despite statistical correlations MBTI is not a useful tool when talking about IQ. 'high iq' is better defined (in terms of mind/brain) in terms of right/left brain usage, brain size, myelination, size and duration of neural activation patterns (related to the aforementioned) etc. etc. etc.

Otherwise, overall, I would say we have the same view point regarding the points you've mentioned (implementation is key). Now I don't think N is really that related to implementation, an ENTJ will be much more hands on than an isfp though i think there certainly is a link.

I agree Ns tend to be a bit less 'concrete' than 'S', as S afterall specialize in the 'concrete' it is only natural they would develop implementation related skills at a higher rate than Ns.

 

[EcK]

You can't even really correlate IQ with MBTI because there's no actual method to measure MBTI's theory of cognition. Just about all of it is armchair guessing based on some stereotypical questions that have not been tested for thoroughness or reliability. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy brainstorming MBTI stuff but I pause to take it really seriously.

Yes you can. Just like you can correlate association with political parties, eye color, height, country of origin, parental iq etc. These are split into two categories: objective-data (height...) and subjective-self-assessed-data (religion etc.)

The method to 'measure mbti' is therefore self-evident and in line with what the MBTI is (a self assessment test).

So if I can correlate IQ with religiosity, political affiliation and any such trait. I can certainly correlate it with MBTI as they are part of the same category.

*pats* Sorry you're going to have to try harder than that.