Why Believe?

[Passacaglia]

So I've written an essay mostly to edify myself by doing research, but others may find it worth a read:

Why believe in the supernatural? For many of us, it's a baffling question. I myself am naturally inclined toward doubt, and was raised to think independently, so I find the motives for belief to be utterly foreign.

It's easy to answer with "Because people are emotional and irrational," or some similarly dismissive simplification. I know I've done this plenty of times in my lifetime! But this answer isn't terribly helpful.

While true, such a simple answer is also shallow. It doesn't shed light on the many reasons which motivate people to believe -- it alienates believers as well as possible skeptics, and it handicaps me on a personal level when talking to these individuals.

It's easy and cathartic to point out the inconsistencies, contradictions, and improbabilities in the supernatural, but ultimately pointless. It comes off as me being a dick to onlookers who might otherwise acknowledge reason, and it doesn't actually change anyone's beliefs. Arguing with a believer is like boxing with an inflatable punching clown; no matter how many times the believer gets knocked down, he pops right back up. Because of the very nature of human psychology, no amount of logic can keep the believer's beliefs down; only he can allow them to deflate.

So in an effort to understand belief and to become better at talking to believers, I'm going to go over what I've learned:

Full essay here. (Google docs link, no download, 5 pages.)

 

[miss fortune]

always an interesting topic, since some people almost seem to be hardwired to believe in things (most seem to be, though I suppose I'll never know) and others seem to be incapable.

and you'll see many different examples of people who either gain or lose faith in both real life and in pop culture for varying reasons. In a way I always kind of wonder if there would ever be anything that will suddenly make believing something that makes sense to me, though I'm pretty certain that I've hit upon most of the causes so far in life and have yet to take it up

 

[Cygnus]

"Being a dick" in a formal academic essay.

I somehow couldn't access it, but I'm not currently using my laptop.



As far as belief goes, I made a conscious effort over the past few years to eliminate belief and just allow the facts of the scenario to color my perception as they come. The biggest problem that follows is my utter lack of a bullshit detector. I don't keep very informed and I don't pass judgments fast enough, mainly because I miss most of the red flags many people notice immediately.

I don't take people's word for supernatural reports until I see enough evidence that natural processes can't explain these phenomena. I don't holistically attack the idea of the supernatural, but I never see the evidence myself. I can make nothing of it.



That said, I'm under no scruples to withhold my evaluation of a scenario just to preserve tranquility. Your reaction is not my responsibility. The emphasis you put on the other person's thoughts seems underhanded to me. It's the kind of attitude that leads people to lie or withhold facts to preserve a person's feelings. Knowledge is power, and if you deny a friend power, however painful it is to hold, you don't trust him. If you can't give him your trust, you don't really care about his feelings, you just want to place yourself on your own perceived ethical high ground by reducing the amount of conflict you cause. It seems like a concern for the friend's greater outcome in the long run, but because the element of trust is destroyed, it can't really be about them at all -- it's just your way of avoiding responsibility for whatever negative outcome occurs as a result.

 

[EcK]

always an interesting topic, since some people almost seem to be hardwired to believe in things (most seem to be, though I suppose I'll never know) and others seem to be incapable.

and you'll see many different examples of people who either gain or lose faith in both real life and in pop culture for varying reasons. In a way I always kind of wonder if there would ever be anything that will suddenly make believing something that makes sense to me, though I'm pretty certain that I've hit upon most of the causes so far in life and have yet to take it up

I feel the same. I did consider 'what ifs' but it just never happens. It just... I don't know it seems like someone would have to be extremely intellectually dishonest to me to claim that absence of evidence for God(s) is absolute evidence of it. Or glorifying Faith? Faith just seems like cowardice/willing obscurantism to me.
I know lots of good people who believe, the thing is I have yet to convince them that their faith doesn't really have much to do with them being good people.
I guess I would respect it more if I didn't see the same emotional/violent reaction every single time I poke at a flaw in their religious mindset: covering their ears, screaming, saying I somehow insulted them for asking a legitimate question...

Osama Bin Laden was described as a moral, deep and soft spoken by many a person who've met him. Yet he thought it a good idea to kill thousands of people. Would that have happened without the belief he was morally justified in doing so? I don't think alot of people who created their moral system outside of religious frameworks would make that leap. Yet while they are a minority the number of religious people who seem to me to be bigoted hateful idiots is staggering. I don't think morals from 30, 20 or 14 centuries ago made-up by people who know about as much as a 5th grader does today should be used to lead our lives. It's a bit ... silly

 

[miss fortune]

I feel the same. I did consider 'what ifs' but it just never happens. It just... I don't know it seems like someone would have to be extremely intellectually dishonest to me to claim that absence of evidence for God(s) is absolute evidence of it. Or glorifying Faith? Faith just seems like cowardice/willing obscurantism to me.
I know lots of good people who believe, the thing is I have yet to convince them that their face doesn't really have much to do with them being good people.
Osama Bin Laden was described as a moral and good person by alot. Yet he thought it a good idea to kill thousands of people. I don't think alot of people who created their moral system outside of religious frameworks would make that leap. Yet while they are a minority the number of religious people who seem to me to be bigoted hateful idiots is staggering. I don't think morals from 30, 20 or 14 centuries ago made-up by people who know about as much as a 5th grader does today should be used to lead our lives. It's a bit ... silly

if you actually read the laws in leviticus it's kind of crazy that they are even still an included part of a religious book that is used today since they are primarily advice on living for people who lived in an era so detached technologically from ours that they come across as kind of crazy and funny

and the fact that religion can be used to rationalize some pretty vile things or offer absolution from having done them kind of seems a bit sketchy as well...

in a way, religion feels kind of like a cop out to me... like you are handing over responsibility for your lifetime tally board of good and bad to a source who is willing to wipe it clean if you ask really nicely. kind of like my feelings about AA... if I hand things over to a higher power, I'm no longer taking responsibility for my own actions and what sort of person does that make me?

 

[EcK]

if you actually read the laws in leviticus it's kind of crazy that they are even still an included part of a religious book that is used today since they are primarily advice on living for people who lived in an era so detached technologically from ours that they come across as kind of crazy and funny

and the fact that religion can be used to rationalize some pretty vile things or offer absolution from having done them kind of seems a bit sketchy as well...

in a way, religion feels kind of like a cop out to me... like you are handing over responsibility for your lifetime tally board of good and bad to a source who is willing to wipe it clean if you ask really nicely. kind of like my feelings about AA... if I hand things over to a higher power, I'm no longer taking responsibility for my own actions and what sort of person does that make me?

Well there's quite a few people calling AA a cult.
I've read their 'methodology' a few years ago. I get the core idea behind it but overall it's about as rational as telling people to get fucked by donkeys to fight constipation. Pardon my metaphor.. that was a big much

edit: [MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] The number of religious precepts we dont follow or even know of when they re clearly in the damn book(s) is kind of an obvious hint that our morals do not in fact come from religions, though religions can misshape them or encourage brainwashed, low-intelligence and/or psychopathic individuals to follow their violent impulses(see religious extremists)

There was this interesting study looking at why Americans seemed to dislike atheists so much, so they've studied the kind of mental associations the public on average had when thinking of atheists. It was 'death'. Atheists remind them of their own mortality. Which is what religions sell after all, the delusion that century-dead conmen knew how to get you to live forever. Despite no evidence what so ever any of the extraordinary claims are true and so much evidence against it (for exemple a perfect god who can't even get vague prophecies right half of the time). I wish they taught people of the 'cargo cult' (esp. ww2 pacific island ones as they describe 'us' as gods) and the life of the founder of scientology and empiricism side by side with whatever religion your parents want to brainwash you with to 'save you'.

 

[EcK]

if I hand things over to a higher power, I'm no longer taking responsibility for my own actions and what sort of person does that make me?

A child

 

[miss fortune]

Well there's quite a few people calling AA a cult.
I've read their 'methodology' a few years ago. I get the core idea behind it but overall it's about as rational as telling people to get fucked by donkeys to fight constipation. Pardon my metaphor.. that was a big much


There was this interesting study looking at why Americans seemed to dislike atheists so much, so they've studied the kind of mental associations the public on average had when thinking of atheists. It was 'death'. Atheists remind them of their own mortality. Which is what religions sell after all, the delusion that century-dead conmen knew how to get you to live forever. Despite no evidence what so ever any of the extraordinary claims are true and so much evidence against it (for exemple a perfect god who can't even get vague prophecies right half of the time)

or a perfect god who is willing to let his creations run amok like a negligent parent of a tyrannical toddler in a restaurant?

and that is something I don't get... we're all immortal in a way, as is every living thing that has ever been... once we die our matter will return into the universe and finally be free... it can't be destroyed... Lavoisier said so! I find that more comforting than the idea that I'll go and prance around in some sort of everlasting happy place as myself forevermore... I'll finally gain the freedom to experience so much more than my human existence... I can become a star or a planet or a jellyfish or all three at the same time! It's like being offered a for sure adventure versus a maybe if you're somehow freakishly lucky stay in a spa... I'll pick the adventure any day

and there's a reason that the last time I ever attended an AA meeting was to pick up my one year chip several years ago... after not having attended for months and months
[MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] ... should someone remind people that religion is not a buffet?

 

[á´…eparted]

some people almost seem to be hardwired to believe in things (most seem to be, though I suppose I'll never know)

I'm atheist and I am definitely hard-wired to believe. I mean, I believed for a solid 23 years of my life. I just simply have enough knowledge to reject it.

 

[miss fortune]

I'm atheist and I am definitely hard-wired to believe. I mean, I believed for a solid 23 years of my life. I just simply have enough knowledge to reject it.

I was raised going to church and all of the trappings and was even non-religious through all of that... I was the annoying kid who pointed out that Jonah would most definitely NOT have survived being swallowed by a whale and then proceeded to graphically describe why. The teacher was not amused when that speech ended up on whale poop, but my classmates were

believing just seems like a completely foreign way of thinking to me somehow

 

[EcK]

I'm atheist and I am definitely hard-wired to believe. I mean, I believed for a solid 23 years of my life. I just simply have enough knowledge to reject it.

I happen to have a tendency to like NFJs. The one part I can't really relate to is their apparent (in my experience) tendency to harbor religious feelings. I tried my very hardest to explore whether or not I could believe but it just, never sticks you know. My mind just ends up calling bullshit even if I actively try to convince myself over months just in case I am just somehow biased. I'm interested in your journey. What were the 'breaking points'

I find religious people have these borderline hardwired defense mechanisms (we can discuss the reasons and how it works but i think it's not necessarily an interesting conversation to either of us?) and I know that they can't 'question' anything until these defenses are weakened.

I am fine with someone believing whatever they will, but it saddens me to see intelligent, good people believe in stuff because their mind was 'bent' to punish itself at the idea of rational thinking on these topics.

What I find terribly sad is the belief that their loved ones, who died, are in a better place. It makes me want to shake them to realize that no, they most probably are gone, they don't exist anymore. That is terrifying, that is the saddest thing one could ever know about a loved one. And I think it's an insult to their memory to 'skip over' that devastating sadness by lying to ourselves about how they're not really dead. As a child I remember my grand mother dying and I just couldn't stop crying, I cried and cried and cried while people were having their post cemetary brunch, because I realized that I would never see her again, and that she had ceased to be.

 

[á´…eparted]

I was raised going to church and all of the trappings and was even non-religious through all of that... I was the annoying kid who pointed out that Jonah would most definitely NOT have survived being swallowed by a whale and then proceeded to graphically describe why. The teacher was not amused when that speech ended up on whale poop, but my classmates were

believing just seems like a completely foreign way of thinking to me somehow

Basically, what it came down to was it felt right, and it was associated with something positive, good, and hopeful. I would create logic skips in my mind (and even some out-and-out lies I was unaware of) to justify it all. I wanted it to be right, and anything that countered it was rejected or rationalize it.

For me anyway, it was all for idealism. I still catch myself doing this sort of thing in many areas all the time. It takes a lot of self-awareness to not let it run the show.

 

[Poki]

Like I posted on facebook...all these religious people are gonna pissed when they die and realize they are wrong. Amazingly I only got 2 likes...lol. I never said who was wrong or why or anything. Just with so many christians who believe so many different things not all of them can be right.

I can't say that I believe or disbelieve, but I can say I don't have faith in it. My biggest issue is with how it screws with peoples head. How it causes anyone to be able to rationalize anything they want.

 

[Poki]

Basically, what it came down to was it felt right, and it was associated with something positive, good, and hopeful. I would create logic skips in my mind (and even some out-and-out lies I was unaware of) to justify it all. I wanted it to be right, and anything that countered it was rejected or rationalize it.

For me anyway, it was all for idealism. I still catch myself doing this sort of thing in many areas all the time. It takes a lot of self-awareness to not let it run the show.

I don't know if it's a blessing or curse, but I am so middle brained I know when I rationalize and have to make a decision to go along with it or not. It sucks, but is a blessing at the same time.

 

[Coriolis]

in a way, religion feels kind of like a cop out to me... like you are handing over responsibility for your lifetime tally board of good and bad to a source who is willing to wipe it clean if you ask really nicely. kind of like my feelings about AA... if I hand things over to a higher power, I'm no longer taking responsibility for my own actions and what sort of person does that make me?

That depends on how you see the higher power.

I wish they taught people of the 'cargo cult' (esp. ww2 pacific island ones as they describe 'us' as gods) and the life of the founder of scientology and empiricism side by side with whatever religion your parents want to brainwash you with to 'save you'.

So many religions seem to want people to keep blinders on. They not only don't seek out knowledge of other faiths, they often actively discourage it. This is too bad, because they might appreciate learning how much they have in common. Imagine if, before a young person could be confirmed as a member of a church/synagogue/etc., they had to study three other religions, including interviewing believers, to make sure their own group was really the best fit. Sounds crazy, but that's actually what my pagan group required before a seeker could be initiated.

and there's a reason that the last time I ever attended an AA meeting was to pick up my one year chip several years ago... after not having attended for months and months
[MENTION=5643]EcK[/MENTION] ... should someone remind people that religion is not a buffet?

Isn't it? Actually, I have come to treat it as a smorgasbord. No religion has a monopoly on truth, and every one contains elements that are not truth. The only way you can have a faith that makes any sense at all is to pick and choose.

I was raised going to church and all of the trappings and was even non-religious through all of that... I was the annoying kid who pointed out that Jonah would most definitely NOT have survived being swallowed by a whale and then proceeded to graphically describe why. The teacher was not amused when that speech ended up on whale poop, but my classmates were

believing just seems like a completely foreign way of thinking to me somehow

See, to me such explanations are beside the point. Did you explain to your English teacher that a tortoise would never be able to beat a hare in a race, and why? I know many Christians would disagree, but the real point of these stories is their lessons, not their historical or scientific veracity. You can disagree with the moral, too, but that is a different question.

So why believe? Bottom line for me is that it helps me become more of the person I want to be, and to live my life according to my values and in pursuit of my goals.

 

[geedoenfj]

A religious lady is watching you people [emoji102][emoji39] I read some of your replies, I will read more as soon as possible..
but I find what you wrote to be interesting so far..

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I was raised in a Pentecostal church. My father was the pastor. You would think I would be hardwired for this but I have every "right" not to believe. My father, who by all accounts could represent the church and religion, was extremely physically abusive to my mother, brothers and myself. Down right cruel. Once, taking a workman's file to file my front two teeth down. No painkillers. Basically, he was a horrible human being who did not represent what he stood for each Sunday at the pulpit.

Yet, I still believe in God. Why? Good question.....

Even at a young age, I recognized the difference between human and God. I never connected the two. That did not make sense to me. God transcended man. The fact that we can do horrible things to each other in the name of God was irrelevant. I guess you could say that man's base nature had the propensity for evil and I saw through that type of manipulation.

Basically, man could use anything to justify THEIR own selfish wants. Religion being one of those things but it certainly wasn't the only thing. Psychopaths will exploit any tool to get what they want. They could even use it for evil but does that make God inherently evil? To me, no. It was and is, distinct. So, why do bad things happen to good people? Because people have the propensity for evil, just as much as good. This is man's nature.

You could argue religion vs. God. I choose not to, because religion is man's interpretation of God. Sometimes, it is false. God is not.

I have always felt protected. I have always felt a presence in my life and I attribute that to God.

Some things you should know: I do not believe in one true religion. I do not believe the Bible should be taken literally, but as a guideline. A basis for personal study. I believe that you should question things. I believe you don't have to answer to anyone but yourself and God. Judgement is not welcome because we have all fallen short of perfection. Grace is an amazing thing. I do not believe in placing my beliefs on others. I believe my belief should be self-evident - not as an advertisement, on my sleeve or shouted to the world, but through my actions and nature.

That being said, I find it disheartening that so many think knowledge and intelligence has anything to do with faith. The preacher at my church was a NASA scientist who worked for the space program, for instance. Belief and faith are something that resonates in your core. I understand the stance of someone not believing because there is no proof or it is not logical. True. It is not. Neither is love - yet we seek it even when we are hurt. We touch fire and get burned only to touch it again and again. Not logical. Forgiveness is not logical. Yet, I have forgiven my father and this has brought me peace. God has helped me whenever I have called out to him. His presence has been a whisper in my life, always. Simply put, my belief in him has made me be a better person. Does that mean if I didn't believe I wouldn't be? No. I still would have morals and behave accordingly. I just would find it harder to release pain and the burdens we all share.

Why do we do it? Because there is a reward for getting it right. There is a reward for putting in effort and seeing a result that defies convention. That is what faith is.

I'm not speaking of an afterlife because I do not know what it entails. I can't be certain of anything. I may be wrong. You may be wrong. The reward for me is feeling his presence. That is it. I choose to believe because God gives me inner peace. The same way Allah gives another peace. Mother Nature, etc. These, to me, are the manifestations of the same higher being. I happen to call mine God.

 

[Proctor]

Like I posted on facebook...all these religious people are gonna pissed when they die and realize they are wrong. Amazingly I only got 2 likes...lol.

Maybe because what you're suggesting is a contradiction in terms. If they find out they're wrong that means there's some sort of afterlife, but if they're wrong it means there can't be an afterlife.

From what I hear the internet is very touchy about logical fallacies.

 

[Poki]

Maybe because what you're suggesting is a contradiction in terms. If they find out they're wrong that means there's some sort of afterlife, but if they're wrong it means there can't be an afterlife.

From what I hear the internet is very touchy about logical fallacies.

People are touchy about logical fallacies.

 

[Lark]

The long answer would involve rejecting the supernatural vs. natural or idea-list vs. materialist as false dichotomies.

The short one would be to deploy Arthur C Clarke's "Any Sufficiently Advanced Technology is Indistinguishable From Magic" quote.