[Type 4] The e4 Instincts' Relationships to Shame and Envy

[SD45T-2]

SX: "How dare everyone else be happy when I'm so deprived of joy!?" (Passionate Envy)
SO: "Why can't I be happy like everyone else is? There must be something wrong with me!" (Shame)
SP: "I wish I could be happy like everyone else..." (Wistful Envy)

 

[Redbone]

I'm reporting as an sx/sp, but I may be the other way around. What we have is not counter phobia, and maybe not bravery either. It looks like courting danger, but that's only because our SP is not focused on well-being, it's focused on 4 values. We're not looking to secure safety, we're looking to secure interesting lives.

Wooo...yes. Even though I admit that it has tripped over into self-destructive stuff. Sp 4 is like what...grim determination against whatever. Boredom. Bad times. Tragedy. Even smooth sailing!

Envy for me is more like a feeling of unfairness...why in fuck did I get saddled with so much and others with so little? Or that others have really interesting, exciting lives and I have NOTHING except obstacles! Or they got to have this, that, or the other...why not me? I even envy my own kids...I wish I could go back and mother myself! Short-end of the stick syndrome....

The transfer of blame to someone else is an indicator of internal shame.

Children who live with constant hostility and criticism learn to defend against the bad feelings inside and externalize blame on others. External assignment of blame is a defense against shame. People who are super critical have a heavy shame core inside. The focus is on finding fault outside yourself but the mistake is never corrected. If the responsibility for blame can be fixed on someone else, the person may feel pride in getting off scot-free. The rigid thinking is I'll be pure if I can make him wrong. It is not my problem. It is beyond my control. I just can't allow myself to feel bad inside, so I'll blame him."

The child who has been raised with criticism and parental anger may develop the shame/rage spiral. The shame/rage spiral consists of getting angry and raging when upset, then being ashamed and going into rage to avoid the shameful feelings, etc. The shame/rage spiral keeps others away and helps the person avoid intimacy where more pain and shame might be experienced.

Oh...I see. Well, this explains a lot. It's also DAW... So-instinct last.

 

[Rambling]

I experience this sort of envy as well. I would also say I envy their success, and by this I don't mean fame so much as the fact that they succeed at what they do. This goes for a wide variety of things-

-people who have intense, soul-melding relationships
-people who had parents who nurtured their talents
-people with better style
-people who are more socially skilled
-people who have better voices
-people who are musical prodigies
-people who can write novels (and finish them!)
-people who lived at different time periods and places that I've deemed more desirable
-people who are independently wealthy


I mean, I could really go on and on. If it exists (or existed), I've probably envied it.

How do I deal with this? By making it look like I don't give a shit:

- Intense, soul-melding relationships don't exist.
- People with nurturing parents aren't even talented, just lucky.
- Caring about style is superficial and stupid.
- Socializing is superficial and stupid.

You get the idea.

The same goes for shame. I feel deep shame about my failings, but I make it look like I don't care to protect myself. In this way I think the sexual four looks shameless and looks elitist (because they are countering their envy with feigned superiority), but internally it's a different picture. I think the self preservation instinct also contributes to the air of indifference, because there is an element of self-sacrifice/martyrdom to the type, an other people may have those things, but I am one who suffers and endures in a way others can't understand..

Wow, there is depth here...

Anyone feel like discussing this?

I sometimes feel like my emotions are 'insufficient'...I don't react as other people seem to, internally. And the longing to feel more emotions...is palpable sometimes.

But I guess in forming the INTJ emotions get put into third place, but now in midlife I am journeying backwards to rediscover and integrate them.

 

[grey_beard]

Wow, there is depth here...

Anyone feel like discussing this?

I sometimes feel like my emotions are 'insufficient'...I don't react as other people seem to, internally. And the longing to feel more emotions...is palpable sometimes.

But I guess in forming the INTJ emotions get put into third place, but now in midlife I am journeying backwards to rediscover and integrate them.

In order to integrate, you must distinguish between definite and indefinite integrals. And you also need to learn how to differentiate...

 

[small.wonder]

I've been drawing up descriptions of each core type, and the individual instincts of each for my Enneagram blog (so I thought I'd share). Here are the instincts of 4.

 

[Kas]

[MENTION=21859]Rambling[/MENTION] was it always like that? And why do you think others feel more? Sorry that I bombard you with questions but you made me think of something I observed.
I think that sx, because they are so intense, can come to the point where they don’t want to feel so much anymore. It’s like getting from one extreme to another. And sometimes might be difficult to came back to how things were before. Does it make sense?

Getting to the OP question. Yes I feel sometimes both. In my life earlier I felt (only) shame then I came to feeling envy too.
I handle it rationalizing when I can because thay are very useless and destructive feelings.

 

[Rambling]

[MENTION=21859]Rambling[/MENTION] was it always like that? And why do you think others feel more? Sorry that I bombard you with questions but you made me think of something I observed.
I think that sx, because they are so intense, can come to the point where they don’t want to feel so much anymore. It’s like getting from one extreme to another. And sometimes might be difficult to came back to how things were before. Does it make sense?

Getting to the OP question. Yes I feel sometimes both. In my life earlier I felt (only) shame then I came to feeling envy too.
I handle it rationalizing when I can because thay are very useless and destructive feelings.

I think other people - well, either they overreact to what I think of as very small or irrelevant stimuli, or else I'm just under reacting...say a group of us are chatting and something funny happens, they will laugh a lot more than I do, for example.

But then sometimes I feel intensely about something which my friends don't seem to notice at all, whether it's a film or a talk or something we do together, when we talk afterwards they seem to have forgotten or not taken in or don't want to talk about whatever it was that I thought the main point was, the part I found the most interesting or exciting or funny or relevant.

So that's why I think what I said.

Occasionally I can certainly suppress or avoid feeling things and that could well be because I think it will be too overwhelming; as you say, that's the flip side of the intensity of the sx, yes.

 

[grey_beard]

I think other people - well, either they overreact to what I think of as very small or irrelevant stimuli, or else I'm just under reacting...say a group of us are chatting and something funny happens, they will laugh a lot more than I do, for example.

But then sometimes I feel intensely about something which my friends don't seem to notice at all, whether it's a film or a talk or something we do together, when we talk afterwards they seem to have forgotten or not taken in or don't want to talk about whatever it was that I thought the main point was, the part I found the most interesting or exciting or funny or relevant.

So that's why I think what I said.

Occasionally I can certainly suppress or avoid feeling things and that could well be because I think it will be too overwhelming; as you say, that's the flip side of the intensity of the sx, yes.

Sounds like your inner INFP is trying to beam down from the mother ship. /intense personal-based feelings>

I say, go ahead and laugh, but try not to let other people catch you, when it looks like you're just laughing at random air molecules. Appearances are important...

 

[MyCupOfTea]

Interesting topic.

For me, shame has played a huge role in my childhood and teenage years. It's not developed by the environment (like neglective parenting or childhood trauma), it's just something that I've always had.

As a kid I was ashamed of being different. I was extremely shy and didn't want any negative attention as I felt like pointing out from the crowd was. I felt like every time I let my guard down others just had a reason to make fun of me (Probably something others would call just casual joking around but I took it in my heart). As a result, I hid that part of me from the others to protect myself from the shame. Outwardly, I tried my best to be like others and saved my deeper thoughts and desires to my diary and dreams.

It took me about 20 years to start appreciating my quirkiness. I really love that part of me now. I enjoy oddness in life and feel connected to it. "Fitting in" feels like more of an insult.

Anyways, I believe I might be so first.

 

[pinkgraffiti]

I just found this article about shame, and it's pretty interesting how similar it is to descriptions of four: Shame - The Disowned Part of the Self - article by Dr. Lynne Namka











^This sounds to me more like the social four response to shame. Maybe the fact that it is the 'typical' response is why the social four is considered the 'shameful' four?





^This sounds to me more like the sexual four response to shame.




^I don't know why she says this is a male thing (definitely people of both genders do this), but I'd say this is more the self-preservation approach.



^Again, sexual.

OMG. The part that you say is the sexual 4s anger is really me. All that about having had a critical, angry parents and its repercussions. I hadnt realized I have so much shame but it is true that I tend to blame other people, and I dont want to deal with negative things, I usually block the feeling that it might be my fauly.
Simultaneously, I often feel embarassed. Is that a mirror feeling to shame? Mmmh, im thinking out loud, maybe it's the same feeling. Like, in social situations, im embarassed of what people think of me and if I did a social faux-pas. I probably think too much about what other people think of me and if I am or look normal enough, and I can get into intense feelings of embarassement(maybe that's shame).

Also super interestingly, my gf is the perfect description of the social 4s shame and envy. Really is. And for me it is one of the difficult point in our relationship, I dont like to hear her whine or being sarcastic about how everyone else sucks or is fake. I feel like she has a lot of negative energy inside and my way of dealing with negative energy is to pretend it isnt there, blame others, etc. Im very sensitive to the negative energy of others, so her complaints really bring me down.

 

[FemMecha]

I struggle with shame, but feel almost no envy. I feel a lot of external pressure in the world that I can't live up to, and I struggle to make sense of the harmful nature of other people, so it is easy for that to trigger feelings of shame. I see a very high correlation between envy and harmful behaviors. It makes it difficult to feel envy because I can see that people with more success have more pressure and deal with envious people who are harmful by nature. I can see the bad with the good, and so I wish them luck dealing with both in their life, and remain thankful I have found ways to limit it in my own life.

 

[cascadeco]

I relate quite a bit to the so-dom elements of Shame in a 4. With the exception of vocalizing a lot of it; I tend to keep most of it in, because, drumroll, I am ashamed for feeling this way and don't want to force other people to hear about it. Also, I have a pretty good element of 'this too shall pass' in me now, so know a lot of this stuff is either very temporary or I just know on some level it's not something I need or want to have a hangup about -- i.e. I can better address this stuff now vs years ago.

I think that this is an area I've worked on a lot through the past 15 years or so, though, so I don't think it's as chronically of an issue as it used to be.

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] referenced Proust as an archetypal example of an so-dom 4, and I'm in the process of reading 'In Search of Lost Time', and I have to admit I too-easily recognize his way of thinking/ neuroses / hangups / preoccupations -- it's embarrassing to read parts of it because I'm like... omg... I'm not the only one who does that? Someone actually put this in writing? How appalling!

But yeah, prior to reading descriptions, I don't know that I would have had a good understanding of 'shame' - I wouldn't have labelled what I am prone to experience as that. I do however recognize the envy elements in the form of 'why doesn't my life look like that' or 'why does he/she have x, y, or z and I don't', 'something's wrong with me', etc etc; it's something I will at this point recalibrate fairly quickly, but if I'm having a really low day the thoughts might linger a bit more.

 

[OrangeAppled]

SX: "How dare everyone else be happy when I'm so deprived of joy!?" (Passionate Envy)
SO: "Why can't I be happy like everyone else is? There must be something wrong with me!" (Shame)
SP: "I wish I could be happy like everyone else..." (Wistful Envy)

I missed this the first time....
I think it's pretty good, but I think sp is less wistful (unless that is sp/so), and more like, "Happiness is dull anyway, so I will create some other meaning." SP is the counter-envy 4 and the most masochistic, so in a sense they can seem "anti-happy", taking seeming pleasure in misery. They tend to reject envy on the surface and can self-sabotage their own well-being and/or fulfillment of their own needs/desires as a way of doing so.