[Fi] Fi -- Why does it drive you nuts?

[Totenkindly]

...some people may find the Fi in ENFP more problematic because it is slave to the Extroverted Intuition. This may lead to corrupt values as Fi would be used to support nearly every hunch of the ENFP. Such persons tend to turn radically egocentric.

I concur. This is my primary issue with ENFPs, when I have issues with them.

What happens... is it's like, their conviction is just as strong, but they haven't thought through these values very much, and decide that winning is crushing their opponents rather than convincing them to turn to the light side.

Sometimes IFPs can get like this, but it's more common to ETJs. Like... if you look at news shows, if there's somebody yelling over the other guy about WHAT IS RIIIIGHT!!!! while what seems to come out of their mouth is utter nonsense, they're probably an ETJ.

I see that happen, and yet I usually find if I engage an ExTJ, they're more apt to see reason. I just have to be able to support my side using a style of arguing that does not come across as a personal assault to them. Practical rationality will win acknowledgment from them, even if it's begrudged.

It's the FPs that I just can't do anything with, because if my thinking does not coincide with their values, then I might as well forget any chance of common ground with a Judging function. I can only win them over by approaching them on their own ground, if possible, and reaffirming the relationship somehow. I just DON'T do that well... I feel like I'm tearing something inside if I try, even if outwardly I pull it off to some degree.

 

[Oberon]

I am so blind to my own emotional state that I actually have depended on feedback from others to tell me how I'm feeling.

A former boss once told me "I can tell you're not happy." And when I thought about it I realized he was right, but I didn't know it up until then. I've seen myself throw things (extremely rare) and observed internally "Hey, I must be angry."

So, while my internal emotional climate certainly influences my behavior and probably influences my decisions, it does so while taking a complete and total detour around cognition.

Jennifer, does any of the above make sense to you?

 

[redacted]

(Dissonance and Beat...I'm waiting...lolz)

Fes tend to find Fi disturbing because they expect for values and motivations of people to derive from the oustside. From clear-cut customs ostensible to all, as Js they want human behavior to be predictable. Fi behavior is difficult for them to understand as it has very little grounding in the external world of values.

yes. Fi is too unpredictable to me. and since it doesn't necessarily correspond with the environment, it can be extremely damaging to the current situation when expressed (doesn't take into account social appropriateness). Fi people make me uncomfortable when they state a value judgment in such a way that creates some sort of non-playful division in the group dynamic.

i'm completely obsessed with social harmony (analogous to Te's need to create order). my social role is basically to be a mediator. i watch the feelings of everyone around me and the web between them, keeping that web in mind when choosing my actions. so sometimes i'll watch an Fi person shake the web unknowingly, and it's hard to reason them out of it, since their feelings don't even have to correspond to what is in front of them.

I've found the Fi of an ETJ much more frightening than that of an IFP, honestly.

i see where you're going with this, and i almost agree. but i'd say an ETJ in stress is much easier to deal with than an IFP in stress. an ETJ will most likely remain logically consistent at least (on average).

in normal situations, though, the ETJ is pretty blind to how strongly their Fi comes out. they'll state their views as if they're objective, but they forget the premises for those views come not only from the environment (Te), but from Fi as well (of all TJs and FPs, i am by far most frightened by my mom's Fi -- she's an ISTJ)

 

[Totenkindly]

Jennifer, does any of the above make sense to you?

I'm older now, so I recognize my feeling states a lot more quickly before they manifest externally, but yes.

Often I don't know I'm upset (or happy) until I experience myself doing or saying something... and I'm left wondering, "oh wow, where did THAT come from?"

in normal situations, though, the ETJ is pretty blind to how strongly their Fi comes out. they'll state their views as if they're objective, but they forget the premises for those views come not only from the environment (Te), but from Fi as well

Well, that's true. T's tend to downplay the influence of internalized F.

 

[Haphazard]

i see where you're going with this, and i almost agree. but i'd say an ETJ in stress is much easier to deal with than an IFP in stress. an ETJ will most likely remain logically consistent at least (on average).

in normal situations, though, the ETJ is pretty blind to how strongly their Fi comes out. they'll state their views as if they're objective, but they forget the premises for those views come not only from the environment (Te), but from Fi as well (of all TJs and FPs, i am by far most frightened by my mom's Fi -- she's an ISTJ)

Well, how I've always seen it is that inferior functions are like 'kick me' signs taped to your back. Everybody else notices and laughs while the person goes on oblivious until they actually get kicked. Perhaps it's more that introverts tend to be a bit more nonconfrontational about it, as opposed to how ETJs are.

With ITJs and Fi, I'd say it's less like a kick-me sign and more like them hiding explosives under their parkas.

 

[Kanerou]

I'm Fi-leading (probably). One thing I hate about it is that I have enough logic as a person to see how illogical my feelings often are. On the other hand, I feel I can't do anything about them. And so the battle goes. I do tend to conceal my feelings in tougher cases, talking only of logic because I feel my feelings in tha situation are irrelevant; but they are certainly there.

My ENTJ father has mentioned that when we argue, I'll latch onto something insignificant (when related to the bigger picture). Like a time when he said "We want (such and such)", when he had not consulted those others he was talking about. Ticked me off. Anyway, it's stuff like that that I will hound him on, because whether big-picture or not, I feel it ought to be addressed.

 

[scantilyclad]

Fi isn't so bad, i can immediately take in information and tell you right away if its bad or good, because i can feel it. Bad feelings hit me hard, my stomach tightens, my heart feels empty, thoughts race through my head.
When something is good to me, none of this happens, thus i know its good.

i can see how this could drive bystanders batty.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

What does that mean?

What is Fi and why does it drive you nuts?

I think the fact that it's fundamentally unaccountable (except to itself) is what tends to irritate people the most about it. There's no consistently effectual reasoning/negotiating with it. Fe tends to make itself accountable to commonly-accepted values (or that's my perception, at least). Fi does not. Arguing with someone who accedes to no authority except their own subjective view (substantiated and/or amenable though it may be to persuasion) is often inconclusive at best and futile at worst. Sometimes this may take the form of having the (Fi) person you're arguing with suddenly backing themselves into a corner and assuming the position that "I know I'm right no matter what you say".

This isn't to say that your logic is invisible to me (for instance). But any changes which need to be made to my values, opinions or actions must be run through my own internal processes before I'll integrate them into my life. This can't be rushed, and if you try then you'll probably be told to fuck off in whatever manner I deem appropriate. Or you'll be ostensibly ignored. I think this is especially annoying to J types who want closure in the conversation. Especially when they feel their position is self-evidently correct.

 

[Sunshine]

Fi isn't so bad, i can immediately take in information and tell you right away if its bad or good, because i can feel it. Bad feelings hit me hard, my stomach tightens, my heart feels empty, thoughts race through my head.
When something is good to me, none of this happens, thus i know its good.

i can see how this could drive bystanders batty.

Fi is so cool.

I am so blind to my own emotional state that I actually have depended on feedback from others to tell me how I'm feeling.

A former boss once told me "I can tell you're not happy." And when I thought about it I realized he was right, but I didn't know it up until then. I've seen myself throw things (extremely rare) and observed internally "Hey, I must be angry."

So, while my internal emotional climate certainly influences my behavior and probably influences my decisions, it does so while taking a complete and total detour around cognition.

That must be annoying. =/

lol is anyone else seeing the irony in this?

 

[heart]

i'm completely obsessed with social harmony (analogous to Te's need to create order). my social role is basically to be a mediator. i watch the feelings of everyone around me and the web between them, keeping that web in mind when choosing my actions. so sometimes i'll watch an Fi person shake the web unknowingly, and it's hard to reason them out of it, since their feelings don't even have to correspond to what is in front of them.

This is one the things I cannot stand the most about dealing with people, those who watch me and immediately react once they've determined they cannot get the proper cues out of me, and their efforts from that point on seem to be trying to rein me in (sometimes I haven't even opened my mouth yet!) . It just makes me totally resistant to anything they've got to say after that point and I want to get as far away from them as possible. I feel a deep repugnance deep in every part of my being towards their desire to bring me into line and mediate (reason?) me into their notion of how I should behave. And if the person tries to pursue me after I try to retreat, ugh, ugh, ugh!

 

[Sunshine]

This is one the things I cannot stand the most about dealing with people, those who watch me and immediately react once they've determined they cannot get the proper cues out of me, and their efforts from that point on seem to be trying to rein me in (sometimes I haven't even opened my mouth yet!) . It just makes me totally resistant to anything they've got to say after that point and I want to get as far away from them as possible. I feel a deep repugnance deep in every part of my being towards their desire to bring me into line and mediate (reason?) me into their notion of how I should behave. And if the person tries to pursue me after I try to retreat, ugh, ugh, ugh!

Heh me too. I HATE it. And I don't see why it matters anyway. I mean if I'm not hurting or bothering anyone why should I have to conform to some standard? I'm me. I don't conform.

I'm actually surprised that this comes up so much though. Every INFP I've met was really aware of social norms and didn't really do anything that wasn't in line with them. As for ISFPs....wellll....LOL....perhaps they were only talking about ISFPs and not INFPs.

ETA: When reading through this thread I realize that basically we all just drive each other nuts. lol. Heh. Acutally it's not really that often that I have personality based issues with people. Usually people irritate me becuse they're immature or hurtful/inconsiderate or just flat out annoying and it's not really related to personality.

 

[Noel]

Fi: I find relevancy in both irrelevant and relevant things to create my own personal [ir]relevancy.

 

[SillySapienne]

:rolli:

I'm massively hungover.

But, I'll say this: Fi and whatever the fuck that means or signifies, has been the component to me that has made me proudly, and sadly, different than most.

If I am in a room surrounded by a majority that is acting like moron/mean following sheeple, I'll have no problem seeing this sad fact and because of my E, making it known to them that they are ignorant people who will be scoffed at as barbaric idiots in history books to come.

I equate my Fi to that mental mechanism in me, that sadly so many people are lacking, called EMPATHY.

I have *always* been an *incredibly* empathetic person, ever since three, if I recall correctly.

My capacity for empathy has been one of my genetic gifts that I am greatly appreciative for.

Perhaps this is my Fi speaking, but I tend to project that other's Fi is similar to my own.

The only crappy thing I can think of Fi, is if the person who "has" it, is a crappy person themselves.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

If someone had very high Fi and very low Ti(or perhaps Te), then they would have the problem of believing things based soley on their own ideals, with no logical support. They would thing things very much in terms of good and bad, and very little terms of true and false.

Of course, that's not the problem of Fi alone, that is the problem of Fi minus Ti. That's never a given, since there are plenty of people that use large amounts of both.

Like me.

 

[faith]

Heh me too. I HATE it. And I don't see why it matters anyway. I mean if I'm not hurting or bothering anyone why should I have to conform to some standard? I'm me. I don't conform.

I think dissonance was referring to particular times when Fi threatens to bother others or harm the carefully balanced interpersonal relationships that Fe has worked so hard to preserve.

It's been interesting for me to read this thread because I'm not very good at picking out particular functions and identifying them in everyday life. It's true that the majority of ENFPs I know in real life seem to drive me up the wall. Sitting and chatting with them feels a bit like forcing myself to remain calm and pleasant while worms crawl all over me.

Reading over this thread, it crosses my mind that my reaction to Fi may be a bit like my reaction to modern art. It appears to be incredibly subjective and mostly for the benefit of the artist, which is fine and dandy. But when they go and put it on display for the general public... it comes across to me as shockingly egocentric.

... Just read C'Chick's post. Do you really equate Fi with empathy? That does seem strange to me. I don't think I have a lot of Fi, but I do have trouble blocking out other people's feelings. I'm too sensitive to them and allow myself to be too affected by them. (One thing I enjoy about INTPs is that their emotions don't swing wildly about and they don't often put them on display. They're easy to be with because I don't have to keep putting up barriers to prevent their emotions from "invading" my own.)

 

[SillySapienne]

I've done oodles and oodles of research on empathy.

Faith, what you're talking about is an *aspect* to empathy, but not empathy as a whole.

My mom and my sister I strongly believe are Fe, they feel the pain and emotions of those they encounter, but they don't necessarily process what that other person must be going through and why, they are kind of like emotional sponges, I am too, but there are cognitive thought processes that are simultaneously going on as I am "feeling" the person.

 

[heart]

I think dissonance was referring to particular times when Fi threatens to bother others or harm the carefully balanced interpersonal relationships that Fe has worked so hard to preserve.

Oh speaking for myself, I get this, but I don't like when Fe's see me as part of their rightful emotive canvas to paint their social visions on/with.

... Just read C'Chick's post. Do you really equate Fi with empathy? That does seem strange to me. I don't think I have a lot of Fi, but I do have trouble blocking out other people's feelings. I'm too sensitive to them and allow myself to be too affected by them. (One thing I enjoy about INTPs is that their emotions don't swing wildly about and they don't often put them on display. They're easy to be with because I don't have to keep putting up barriers to prevent their emotions from "invading" my own.)

I often feel others moods and emotions invading my space like a second skin. I haven't really noticed a difference with many thinkers, they still have moods and emotions that can be sensed, lurking inside of them, often more poignant because their feeling is less sophistocated than feelers and they feel more vulnerable about them... the only difference is thinkers as often don't seek to impress some standard on me and they leave me alone. I always feeling other's sadness and such, and often feel muh pity or empathy which can become exhausting. As for me, I try not to be invasive of others, it is not my place to fix or change anyone unless they ask for help.

 

[Sunshine]

I think dissonance was referring to particular times when Fi threatens to bother others or harm the carefully balanced interpersonal relationships that Fe has worked so hard to preserve.

It's been interesting for me to read this thread because I'm not very good at picking out particular functions and identifying them in everyday life. It's true that the majority of ENFPs I know in real life seem to drive me up the wall. Sitting and chatting with them feels a bit like forcing myself to remain calm and pleasant while worms crawl all over me.

Reading over this thread, it crosses my mind that my reaction to Fi may be a bit like my reaction to modern art. It appears to be incredibly subjective and mostly for the benefit of the artist, which is fine and dandy. But when they go and put it on display for the general public... it comes across to me as shockingly egocentric.

... Just read C'Chick's post. Do you really equate Fi with empathy? That does seem strange to me. I don't think I have a lot of Fi, but I do have trouble blocking out other people's feelings. I'm too sensitive to them and allow myself to be too affected by them. (One thing I enjoy about INTPs is that their emotions don't swing wildly about and they don't often put them on display. They're easy to be with because I don't have to keep putting up barriers to prevent their emotions from "invading" my own.)

Yeah. That's prolly what Dissonance meant.

Yeah lol. I definitely know other types besides Fi types that are empathetic. Like my ISFJ friend...HOLY FUDGE...she's got empathy like you would not believe!

Errr welll when it comes to empahty and Fi maybe this is what people are talking about:

On the other hand, the emphasis on personalizing perceptions gives Fi a remarkably strong point of reference. Take a tragic play, for example. The emotional impact and meaning of the play are entirely dependent on whether or not we have a strong inner reference shaped by the experience of being human -- the kind that bypasses all the social constructs and strikes on what is essentially human. This gives people who use Fi an amazing amount of empathy.

 

[Sunshine]

If someone had very high Fi and very low Ti(or perhaps Te), then they would have the problem of believing things based soley on their own ideals, with no logical support. They would thing things very much in terms of good and bad, and very little terms of true and false.

Of course, that's not the problem of Fi alone, that is the problem of Fi minus Ti. That's never a given, since there are plenty of people that use large amounts of both.

Like me.

Do you need Ti or Te to determine whether things are true or false?
I mean like if somehow Ti or Te didn't exist then would people be unable to determine the truth?

I strongly value truth/knowing the truth so I'm pretty in tune with it but I have no idea if that's becuase I have strong Ti or Te or whatever.

 

[SillySapienne]

The radical subjective nature of Fi makes thinkers uncomfortable. They want people to be able to explain their decisions to them, or for the very least want them to be consistent enough to be made sense of. Bottom line is, Thinkers need for situations to make sense. Fi is quite divorced from logic and therefore has difficulty doing this.

Fi in ENFP is less problematic for Thinkers than in the INFP, as it is more supported by Te (therefore more logical), yet some people may find the Fi in ENFP more problematic because it is slave to the Extroverted Intuition. This may lead to corrupt values as Fi would be used to support nearly every hunch of the ENFP. Such persons tend to turn radically egocentric.

Fes tend to find Fi disturbing because they expect for values and motivations of people to derive from the oustside. From clear-cut customs ostensible to all, as Js they want human behavior to be predictable. Fi behavior is difficult for them to understand as it has very little grounding in the external world of values.

Fi is pretty subtle.

It's one of the "perceptual" decision making processes (along with Ti), which means it's good at making decisions in the middle of massive, nonlinear hits of unstructured information (Te and Fe need their info structured to deal with it).

But unlike Ti, it's more personalized; it encourages a personal relationship with the evolving information. But a prerequisite for any personal relationship is prior experience to determine what's acceptable or not.

An *extremely* simple-minded example of how Fi works is cooking. Say you're making sauce. You need to taste your sauce as you're cooking it and add whatever ingredients you need to make it taste "good". There's no way to structure that kind of information spontaneously, and Fi and Ti don't need to.

Even though you might say that you're taking in the information via S, you're making decisions on the fly in terms of what will make the sauce "good" or "bad". You need to personally know the difference between good and bad beforehand via prior experience. And you need to know it in your bones. Ti lacks this personal relationship in deciding what to do with sense-impressions, so, to Ti, the terms "good" and "bad" are meaningless in this context.

But Fi naturally discriminates between "good" and "bad" like that -- in terms of personal experience. It strikes other types as odd because, since it's perceptual, it's nonverbal, receptive, and guided by perceptions it can't quite explain. And on a much larger scale than cooking sauces, it derives its principles from prior experience of being human.

An added benefit of being perceptual (Fi/Ti) as that it doesn't need to take things apart so finely; Fi has the capacity to see things as a whole, apart from the assumptions we've been socialized into accepting. It can then reason wholistically to determine the integrity of our actions. Fe has a stronger emphasis on the prevailing social norms, and thus has a harder time providing this kind of wholistic decision-making.

But a negative is that it's very hard to express the nonlinear/nonverbal machinations of Fi's decision-making process. Combined with the emphasis on what's personally good or bad in terms of fundamental human values, this difficulty to clearly and linearly lay out one's line of reasoning to others can be interpreted as being dogmatic and polar, and their deeply-held human values aren't always self-evident to other people.

On the other hand, the emphasis on personalizing perceptions gives Fi a remarkably strong point of reference. Take a tragic play, for example. The emotional impact and meaning of the play are entirely dependent on whether or not we have a strong inner reference shaped by the experience of being human -- the kind that bypasses all the social constructs and strikes on what is essentially human. This gives people who use Fi an amazing amount of empathy.

I think others are bothered by Fi because it can appear so dogmatically certain about things that strike others as relative -- concepts like "good" and "bad" -- yet it has difficulty expressing its justification.

That's how I understand it anyway.

QFT!!!!!!