non-binary gender (not trans)

[prplchknz]

Well, the OP here is rather vague. The idea of which check boxes regarding gender should appear on forms was mentioned. Then there was the statement, "I mean also the special treatment, like no one's gonna know unless you tell them i've totally lost my train of thought so there was more". I have been mentioning this in the context of other groups because we have seen these issues before. We have now, for instance, much more variation in the race and ethnicity boxes than we ever used to, presumably because people in the "none of the above" category asked for it. More and more we have people who wish to check multiple boxes. We have more boxes for religion, for marital status, for employment status, and other demographic properties. Seems in the case of gender, we can learn from these experiences. At the same time, the whole system begs the question: when, if at all, should we even be asking these questions? What is the purpose of asking? Nosiness? Government control? Desire to understand the demographic makeup of various locales, careers, economic groups, etc?


This was my point: that there is a commonality in the experience of everyone who is ostracised, judged, or persecuted for being different. Some of those so affected will come to see everyone as potentially hostile, every mistake as intentional; many will not. Yes, it looks like the world is out to get transpeople; just as it was out to get blacks, women, Jews, gays, Armenians, and the disabled at one point or another, and in many places, perhaps still is. On the Everyday Sexism thread awhile back, there was discussion of the many small ways women are belittled or marginalized each day, as well as the notion that we should speak up in these cases rather than just let them roll of our backs in the interests of getting along. This is the "no one's going to know unless you tell them" part. Many well-intentioned men don't realize the effects of the small things they say and do. And yes, I have seen plenty of women complain about this to other women rather than speak up to the men actually doing it. I suspect the same applies to comments and actions involving other human distinctions, including those of gender identity.


Unless I suddenly wake up some morning with gender identity issues, the most I will ever be able to do on that specific topic is observe. You can dismiss all the experiences I do have as irrelevant, or accept that there is some commonality of experience among every form of bullying, hostility, or discrimination based on our individual characteristics, whatever they may be. While the first approach might feel satisfying in the moment, it is not realistic, or constructive in the long run.

what is there for marriage besides, single, married, divorced, my spouse is dead? I am for equal rights, because reasons, special treatment ime makes you stick out more and makes you wear a sign like OMG LOOK AT HOW DIFFERENT I AM!!!! not worth it. equal rights means equal. it comes down to treating everyone like a human or how they've Individually earned to be treated.

 

[Coriolis]

what is there for marriage besides, single, married, divorced, my spouse is dead? I am for equal rights, because reasons, special treatment ime makes you stick out more and makes you wear a sign like OMG LOOK AT HOW DIFFERENT I AM!!!! not worth it. equal rights means equal. it comes down to treating everyone like a human or how they've Individually earned to be treated.

I have seen things like: separated, domestic partner, and in a committed relationship.

 

[prplchknz]

I have seen things like: separated, domestic partner, and in a committed relationship.

why do they want the government to know so much? less it knows the better imo.

 

[Coriolis]

why do they want the government to know so much? less it knows the better imo.

Some of these things relate to public benefits, which depend on how many people live in your household, and sometimes by law, the exact nature of their relationships.

 

[prplchknz]

Some of these things relate to public benefits, which depend on how many people live in your household, and sometimes by law, the exact nature of their relationships.

why does the government need to know the exact nature of the relationships in your household? as long as its not a slave master relation which no one would report since that's illegal there's no point.

 

[Coriolis]

why does the government need to know the exact nature of the relationships in your household? as long as its not a slave master relation which no one would report since that's illegal there's no point.

Because by law, some benefits may be extended to include legal spouses and children, while others can't. This is one reason gay folks have been so keen on legal marriage benefits, so their relationship to a spouse and children is legally recognized. In some cases, I think you can count a parent as a dependent if they actually do depend on you and live with you, etc. Then there are official foster children vs. your daughter's friend whom you might unofficially take in, etc. Just how all the rules are written about these things.

 

[prplchknz]

Because by law, some benefits may be extended to include legal spouses and children, while others can't. This is one reason gay folks have been so keen on legal marriage benefits, so their relationship to a spouse and children is legally recognized. In some cases, I think you can count a parent as a dependent if they actually do depend on you and live with you, etc. Then there are official foster children vs. your daughter's friend whom you might unofficially take in, etc. Just how all the rules are written about these things.

yeah i get listing offspring and marriage. but i'm talking like room mates or that other stuff you mentioned where there is no benefit

 

[Nicodemus]

This isn't going to happen. In an ideal world I can see it, but here gender isn't going anywhere.

Unfortunately, I do agree. People are going to remain primitive and stupid. Gender, however, is not going to solve any problems either.

 

[Coriolis]

Unfortunately, I do agree. People are going to remain primitive and stupid. Gender, however, is not going to solve any problems either.

I actually don't mind gender. There is use and even beauty in it as an abstract concept, or archetype reflecting complementary duality. It also parallels the biology of reproduction, which while not determining the rest of life as some think/wish it does, is nonetheless an important element of it. The problem comes when we expect actual humans to fit the metaphor in any specific way, whether that being expressing either gender in a traditional way, or having one's gender expression match one's physical body, or even fitting within the gender binary at all. IME, in archetypal terms we all are some combination of masculine and feminine, understanding that there will be some variation in those definitions themselves. Someone who is 100% masculine or feminine by any definition seems unnatural to the point of impossibility.

 

[Nicodemus]

I actually don't mind gender. There is use and even beauty in it as an abstract concept, or archetype reflecting complementary duality. It also parallels the biology of reproduction, which while not determining the rest of life as some think/wish it does, is nonetheless an important element of it. The problem comes when we expect actual humans to fit the metaphor in any specific way, whether that being expressing either gender in a traditional way, or having one's gender expression match one's physical body, or even fitting within the gender binary at all. IME, in archetypal terms we all are some combination of masculine and feminine, understanding that there will be some variation in those definitions themselves. Someone who is 100% masculine or feminine by any definition seems unnatural to the point of impossibility.

I believe that terms, for better or worse, create alternate realities. The point of advocating two billion shades is to make terms impractical so that limitations and expectations are kept at bay.

 

[Coriolis]

I believe that terms, for better or worse, create alternate realities. The point of advocating two billion shades is to make terms impractical so that limitations and expectations are kept at bay.

Terms are what we make of them. If something is real, we need a name for it. The fact that its reality is misrepresented, or even misused, doesn't make it suddenly unreal. One might argue that masculine and feminine, or even male and female, are not in fact complementary dichotomies, just as one might argue there is no black and white, just shades of gray. As abstract and occasionally useful ideals, however, both dichotomies do in fact exist.

 

[sprinkles]

I believe that terms, for better or worse, create alternate realities. The point of advocating two billion shades is to make terms impractical so that limitations and expectations are kept at bay.

Muddying the waters usually does more harm than good. And this is coming from someone who likes and practices deconstruction.

It's like killing the host to get rid of a parasite. These two billion shades are going to stick around for better or worse and if ever there comes a time you want to be specific in spite of imperfect terms, you won't be able to and it'll be your own fault.


Terms aren't perfect. They only need to be adequate.

 

[BluRoses]

ugh I know this, my point is it doesn't fucking matter unless your going to a doctor and they need to know for physical shit. otherwise it shouldn't matter and society is never gonna stop insisting that you id as a gender so just do it, its the 50 gender pronouns for facebook. tbt i don't give a fuck what you are because i won't treat you differently unless your an asshole then i'll treat you like on assshole and try to shove shit through you (not physically I think that's rape or assault depending on which hole you use) because that's what assholes are for. I

I see what you are saying. First of all, people on facebook are nuts, so please don't base any opinions of real people on those interactions. Second, I understand that to you it doesn't really matter what gender people think you are, or whatever. The thing is, other people REALLY CARE. They REALLY, REALLY CARE. And that is just a fact. You can't really argue with how they view themselves and how they think the world should be. Well, you can argue, but they are not going to change who they are. So....I would recommend that you just accept that some people really care about this issue and you don't. Kinda like how I have to accept some people REALLY CARE about what religion they and other people are, and I couldn't give a *uck! We just agree to disagree.

 

[Kasper]

I have always wondered how much of the gender dysphoria transgender people experience is a result of feeling different from, in contrast to converse to, other members of their sex. From an epistemological point of view, nobody born with a penis knows how it feels to be a girl. He is likely to know how it feels to be in the wrong body, but is wrongness an intrinsic emotion or a discrepancy between what is and what, by society, parents, friends, and ultimately oneself, is supposed to be? In my experience, the only time children have a problem with their gender is when someone else draws attention to their being different from an irrelevant majority.

Ime there are two equally harsh elements; extreme discomfort with one's physical body which I would refer to as the dysphoria, and the discomfort with social gender expectations, I don't consider that dysphoria however the pain it causes can be just as harmful. Removal of expectations does not negate the other, and we don't live in a non-gendered space that would allow someone to avoid the former based on lack of recognition.

Part of the problem with understanding the difference is most people equate genitalia to gender identity, I doubt you were told as a child you had a penis therefore you were a boy and your brain accepted that notion, it simply aligned with your identity.

In my head I have always viewed myself as male, there was never a time when that was a questionable thing, I simply didn't know others did not all think the same way. I never looked at girls and said "I don't feel like them" I looked at them without knowledge they did not see themselves as male in their head, I really did not get girls! It may sound silly but I lived most of my life with no voice to question my subjective experience of self compared with others, it wasn't a topic discussed or a subject I was exposed to, I did not really get that I was different beyond struggling to play the role as dictated by social expectations as I grew older, and due to the wide circle of tomboys around me even that wasn't seen by others as an issue. I knew at a young age that my body was 'wrong' and would get quite distraught about it, that wasn't about social expectations, they simply exacerbated things. It's like my brain had a map for how my body should look, and only I was privy to it, it was an internal thing, not about comparing.

Re the question of non-binary gender...

That point of my own subjective view of life is one that makes topics of trans issues feisty at times; most seem to push their subjective experience onto the topic and say "this is how I see it, why can't you just see it like that". It's automatic to see one's own perspective as objective, but it's not and can therefore be very dismissive of other experiences, that is most damaging if the view being dismissed is a minority.

My experience shades my view naturally, I don't see gender as a binary thing and believe it's incorrect for there to be only two options when nature clearly shows us diversity, one of the biggest issues I see with persisting with that binary is the forced surgeries on children with intersexed conditions to fit them into a binary, changing government paperwork to include an optional non-binary option exposes more people to the concept that gender isn't binary or something that has to be "fixed", I don't see how that's a bad thing unless that option is forced on people. I also think it's stupid that your drivers licenses have a gender marker on them, but that's another topic =D I don't know what it's like to be non-binary, however I do know that for those who are, it is valued when it is recognised and accepted, if you're able to see that gender isn't binary then I see no reason not to recognise those who are non-binary. If you are not able to see gender as anything but binary, then that is the question you need to be pondering.

 

[Lark]

Ok so here's the thing that confuses the fuck out of me, maybe i'm just an asshole because of it and that's ok, because it just is. Any ways more and more i've been seeing people claim non-binary which is cool whateves, but the thing that i don't get is they want a special box on forms. I've never really thought of myself as male or female but because my reproductive organs are female i just put that down or if i asked if i'm boy or girl i say girl. Because here the thing i don't think it defines me and therefore no need to worry about it. so my question is why? do they care so much? I'm not talking about trans which would be different from non-binary, and i can understand the need because if you are transitioning from man to woman and going to a doctor or something, somethings are gonna be off they just are. But with non-binary until you can ken doll your genitals there's not i use for it and just seems whiney. I mean also the special treatment, like no one's gonna know unless you tell them i've totally lost my train of thought so there was more

To be honest I think that's just part of the trend, maybe consumerism's at fault, maybe its the addiction to novelty, maybe its atheism/finitude of existence/death anxiety, in any case choice is good, anything which would appear to limit choice is taboo, anything which appears to have been a choice even isnt good either.

So I see all this pomo sexuality etc. etc. as all part of that.

Although it'd be easier to dismiss me as a bigot and not bother to think about things in any sort of depth.

Bet everyone goes with the later rather than the former.