7 + 4 {relationally}

[HongDou]

from my perspective...i never get it. the type 4's wahh life sucks shit. i just don't.. i look a their life and think you ungrateful lil bastard...look at all that you have??!! and their complaints about them self...also...like wtf are you talking about?? there's nothing wrong

so...that is potentially a super uncomplimentary dynamic.

i'm sure 4's very much just want us to relate but instead we're (i'm) like....but...but...it's all freakin made up!! and you need to get over it!

This is inevitably and consistently my experience with every single 4 I've come across. I want to slap them and be like CHECK YO sELF

 

[Lady_X]

right...it's an issue. :/

 

[HongDou]

right...it's an issue. :/

It's interesting though how almost visceral it can be. Like 4s probably do this naturally and they're not trying to seem ungrateful or selfish, but to us E7s we're like wtf is wrong with you guys there's no making you happy! Even when we get they're being a 4 it can be frustrating just because it's such a mood killer.

 

[Redbone]

right...it's an issue. :/

It certainly can be and my impatience can be sparked by it from time to time. I can only stay with a bad feeling for so long before I feel the need to take action (so the action may not be very helpful...)

However, I also highly admire their ability to stay with dark things. I've been through some evil crap and my "it's in the past and doesn't matter now"/refusal to actually deal with the lingering trauma made things worse. It is amazing to me that they can not just peer but explore what's in the darkness (I only thought I could do this but I was really more focused on gritty reality). I think my lingering issues with depression and other things give me a lot of empathy and understanding with 4s.

 

[Lady_X]

It's interesting though how almost visceral it can be. Like 4s probably do this naturally and they're not trying to seem ungrateful or selfish, but to us E7s we're like wtf is wrong with you guys there's no making you happy! Even when we get they're being a 4 it can be frustrating just because it's such a mood killer.

i think i just sort of live my life with the understanding of all the struggles people have to endure...all the hardships...like true hardships..poverty..mental illness...having no family or friends...being incarcerated...loosing family members...your child?? or not being able to care for them? or being evicted or not having a job? or being in a major accident etc etc

and i just have no patience for it...

the complaints about made up shit. like...it is visceral...it pisses me off. it's being handed a beautiful gift and shitting all over it.

sorry

 

[small.wonder]

Except no. Who wants to go to a party where everyone is sad and no fun?! That's the thing I've learned about a lot of 4s I've met - the fact that they place so much effort on their identity and what's missing makes them kind of boring anyway. I mean, sort of in contrast to what [MENTION=13973]AntiheroComplex[/MENTION] was saying, I'm not going to instantly feel what you're feeling and connect with that if I know that your life has actually been pretty good and filled with good people and plenty to be thankful for. My empathy isn't earned by being unhappy, it goes more out to those who try to stay strong and not let life phase them and sometimes crack when life gets hard.

That said, when 4s are actually in better moods I find them really fun to interact with because I can just shoot out anything as weird as possible and they'll follow through with it. And they do have a lot of passionate things to say when they're not out romanticizing how they feel. So in that sense they're really not boring people when they're in a good mood. And after they warm up to me they'll start to be more self-assertive in social interaction which I like because I don't like being relied on to carry the conversation and always initiate it.

Agreed, but what you said really is that you prefer healthier 4's. That makes total sense, I prefer healthier 7's too! The self realized 4 is extremely tough skinned and though still not bubbly and sugar-coated like a 7, they can see beauty in the pain. The above bolded is true, but also unhealthy-- to not address pain or and emotional injury until you crack?

I guess that's the huge 4 + 7 issue though, we each err in opposite ways of unhealth. 4's allow themselves to feel too deeply, and connect their identities to unreal suffering. 7's allow themselves to ignore their negative feelings altogether and connect their identities to unreal happiness.

4's and 7's both need a bit of the other to be healthy, to not fixate on the one extreme.

 

[Lady_X]

It certainly can be and my impatience can be sparked by it from time to time. I can only stay with a bad feeling for so long before I feel the need to take action (so the action may not be very helpful...)

However, I also highly admire their ability to stay with dark things. I've been through some evil crap and my "it's in the past and doesn't matter now"/refusal to actually deal with the lingering trauma made things worse. It is amazing to me that they can not just peer but explore what's in the darkness (I only thought I could do this but I was really more focused on gritty reality). I think my lingering issues with depression and other things give me a lot of empathy and understanding with 4s.

right...thanks for pointing that out. i have moments of admiration and empathy for it...but i have to be truly open to get there. i'm not currently ha

 

[Lady_X]

Agreed, but what you said really is that you prefer healthier 4's. That makes total sense, I prefer healthier 7's too! The self realized 4 is extremely tough skinned and though still not bubbly and sugar-coated like a 7, they can see beauty in the pain. The above bolded is true, but also unhealthy-- to not address pain or and emotional injury until you crack?

I guess that's the huge 4 + 7 issue though, we each err in opposite ways of unhealth. 4's allow themselves to feel too deeply, and connect their identities to unreal suffering. 7's allow themselves to ignore their negative feelings altogether and connect their identities to unreal happiness.

4's and 7's both need a bit of the other to be healthy, to not fixate on the one extreme.

this is so true too

i so did not mean to rant about 4's

i truly do adore them...it's just in this one way...where we can be such opposites. positive/negative. that i was meaning to point out an issue with.

 

[hjgbujhghg]

from my perspective...i never get it. the type 4's wahh life sucks shit. i just don't.. i look a their life and think you ungrateful lil bastard...look at all that you have??!! and their complaints about them self...also...like wtf are you talking about?? there's nothing wrong

so...that is potentially a super uncomplimentary dynamic.

i'm sure 4's very much just want us to relate but instead we're (i'm) like....but...but...it's all freakin made up!! and you need to get over it!

That's why I like you...Get the fuck over it and stop being dramatic! Even thought it might hurt us, I think a slap like that is what most of us need ...

 

[Amargith]

It's weird. I have the opposite going with 7s. Im like - stop distracting yourself and running away from everything that is remotely *not fun*. Coz inevitably, they run at some point into a wall or out of gass and they come crying to me, an emotional wreck. And I get to clean it up - which would have been a whole hell of a lot easier if they've just come to me when they first encountered the issue instead of going 'wheeeee, it doesn't exist!'

 

[Lady_X]

i should maybe mention that when i need to get that point across irl i'm very sweet and loving about it. haha

 

[small.wonder]

Hey, I don't mind a good rant! I am a 4 so I'm quite familiar with that particular phenomenon.

I think it's curious with this obvious clash (unless both people are devoted to health and communication), that 4w5 was voted best match for 7w8 on this thread. Thoughts?

 

[Lady_X]

Hey, I don't mind a good rant! I am a 4 so I'm quite familiar with that particular phenomenon.

I think it's curious with this obvious clash (unless both people are devoted to health and communication), that 4w5 was voted best match for 7w8 on this thread. Thoughts?

cool...i adore my 4w5 bf truly and i might even be 7w8 (but probably 7w6 fits better) i'm just talking about that dynamic

some of the amazing things are our conversations that can last all night...about everything...we jump all around and discuss things in depth. it's the best.
our energy level is surprisingly complimentary
i'm not super extroverted and like one on one time due to sxness probably
and he's adventurous enough that he's usually up for whatever i suggest.

 

[small.wonder]

It's weird. I have the opposite going with 7s. Im like - stop distracting yourself and running away from everything that is remotely *not fun*. Coz inevitably, they run at some point into a wall or out of gass and they come crying to me, an emotional wreck. And I get to clean it up - which would have been a whole hell of a lot easier if they've just come to me when they first encountered the issue instead of going 'wheeeee, it doesn't exist!'

I actually experience this with almost all of the other types, 7's are up there on the list though. As a healthier 4, I've found that my blunt honesty is received much better than my dramatic antics as an unhealthy 4 were. I tend to just interject whatever bull or passive-aggression is being spoken with, "but what you really mean is that you feel neglected and taken advantage of by him, right?". They tend to deer-in-headlights me a bit and then start talking about it.

My 2w3 Mom and 6w7 brother are the most subject-changing, duck-and-dodgers I know, so I deal with "breaking the ice" a lot.

 

[HongDou]

[MENTION=17697]small.wonder[/MENTION]: You're definitely right that, regardless of E-Type, level of health is what's most important in ANY relationship. I just notice that these are the struggles most 7s have with 4s so I wanted to get the word out there.

I think it's curious with this obvious clash (unless both people are devoted to health and communication), that 4w5 was voted best match for 7w8 on this thread. Thoughts?

I could see it. I haven't found a really solid relationship theory with enneagram yet, I remember there was one that went like:

1 x 9
2 x 8
3 x 7
4 x 6
5 x 5

so therefore:

1w9 x 9w1
1w2 x 9w8
2w1 x 8w9 (I actually think this would be adorable)
2w3 x 8w7 (stereotypical girl/boy party couple )
3w2 x 7w8
3w4 x 7w6 (this couple and the above one seem really narcissistic haha)
4w3 x 6w7 (this one sounds really intense and dramatic)
4w5 x 6w5
5w4 x 5w6

Personally I don't buy into it. But there's another interesting one for you. But really I think one's ideal type varies from person to person.

 

[Amargith]

I actually experience this with almost all of the other types, 7's are up there on the list though. As a healthier 4, I've found that my blunt honesty is received much better than my dramatic antics as an unhealthy 4. I tend to just interject whatever bull or passive-aggression is being spoken with, "but what you really mean is that you feel neglected and taken advantage of by him, right?". They tend to deer-in-headlights me a bit and then start talking about it.

My 2w3 Mom and 6w7 brother are the most subject-changing, duck-and-dodgers I know, so I deal with "breaking the ice" a lot.

I hear ya on that. And yes, it does get ridiculous at times
As for the gloom and doom thing - there is a reason I do this shit in private and only 'leak' it if I don't get a chance to retreat and deal with it on my own. The only one who gets a glimpse for the most part, is my So. And he gets a say as to how much he wants to take in. Most others get the summary afterwards, if its something that comes up

I can imagine though that when a 4 is still in that phase where they are in non-stop pain due to incredible shame, they are a fucking drain on your emotional resources though. That kind of negativity sucks the life right out of you.

 

[small.wonder]

cool...i adore my 4w5 bf truly and i might even be 7w8 (but probably 7w6 fits better) i'm just talking about that dynamic

some of the amazing things are our conversations that can last all night...about everything...we jump all around and discuss things in depth. it's the best.
our energy level is surprisingly complimentary
i'm not super extroverted and like one on one time due to sxness probably
and he's adventurous enough that he's usually up for whatever i suggest.

Yes, I could see that being true as I think 4 and 7 are great conversationalists (as long as it's deep enough for the 4), and love adventure.

Do you sense a raw quality to your relationship? Eh, now that I think about it I think that's just the double Sx factor. Or maybe it's the 4 and 8-wing combo? Or both?

 

[Lady_X]

Yes, I could see that being true as I think 4 and 7 are great conversationalists (as long as it's deep enough for the 4), and love adventure.

Do you sense a raw quality to your relationship? Eh, now that I think about it I think that's just the double Sx factor. Or maybe it's the 4 and 8-wing combo? Or both?

i do yes...very much so. one of things that is most noticeable about him is how raw he is...most infps seem this way to me....but maybe it's a 4 thing?? idk
but it's also an sx thing i think...which i am but he isn't.

also...pretty sure i have 8 in their somewhere...it was he who decided i did.

should point out tho that he is the only person i've dated that thought i was aggressive...i tend to think it's because he's highly sensitive to it or takes everything personal where others might see me become hyped up about something and realize it doesn't have anything to do with them. where he gets all reactive about it...and turns it into some fight about nothing.

 

[small.wonder]

1w9 x 9w1
1w2 x 9w8
2w1 x 8w9 (I actually think this would be adorable)
2w3 x 8w7 (stereotypical girl/boy party couple )
3w2 x 7w8
3w4 x 7w6 (this couple and the above one seem really narcissistic haha)
4w3 x 6w7 (this one sounds really intense and dramatic)
4w5 x 6w5
5w4 x 5w6

Personally I don't buy into it. But there's another interesting one for you. But really I think one's ideal type varies from person to person.

Interesting! I don't buy it either though, haha.

Though 8 + 2 relationships are common, I find them kind of disturbing because it can easily be unhealthy: looking either like 8 parent + 2 child, or 2 Mom + 8 Child. My Parents are 2w3 and 8w7 and I often see both of those weird dynamics at play, so no wonder they are divorced.

The type combinations articles on Enneagram Institute are really an interesting read, I like that they present pro's and con's to each. In the end, I totally agree with you that it's really an individual + individual thing regardless of type.

 

[Luv Deluxe]

Except no. Who wants to go to a party where everyone is sad and no fun?! That's the thing I've learned about a lot of 4s I've met - the fact that they place so much effort on their identity and what's missing makes them kind of boring anyway. I mean, sort of in contrast to what [MENTION=13973]AntiheroComplex[/MENTION] was saying, I'm not going to instantly feel what you're feeling and connect with that if I know that your life has actually been pretty good and filled with good people and plenty to be thankful for. My empathy isn't earned by being unhappy, it goes more out to those who try to stay strong and not let life phase them and sometimes crack when life gets hard.

Ha! Perhaps I should clarify - I feel the person's emotions, but I may not necessarily find common ground with their source. (I've picked myself up from some very dark places, and although I would like to be a better person, I sometimes find myself almost frustrated with people who don't even seem willing to try to do the same.) In other words, I feel it, but I may not "connect" with it. Empathy without sympathy? I'm not sure...it's complicated.

Suppose a Four (or anybody) walks into a room and he's down "just because." He doesn't have to say or do anything, but I'll feel his mood instantly, the way one feels air temperature. It's like standing in a room that's too cold, except instead of being enveloped by a chill from the outside-in, it's a sensation that blossoms from the inside-out. Odds are, I can guess what's up before he knows himself (or decides that he's ready to talk about it). While I would much rather be productive, flush it out, and move on already, Fours can spend great lengths of time bathing in those emotions...and as you say, Chanaynay, that's one pity party I won't mind tossing my invitation to.

Basically, I feel compelled to be there for my friends...but I hate negativity so much that I have to get up and leave the room, go for a drive, and/or find something else to do.

[MENTION=13973]AntiheroComplex[/MENTION] Wow, thanks for such detail! Perhaps your 4w5 was of the Sp-first variety, sounds a bit that way. Also maybe not very healthy, the clingy, long-winded text messages while you were at work sound like definite disintegration to 2 in my opinion. Which, yes, is super annoying and ick. I've been there, and never ever plan to return. I do think I'd tire a bit of the "laughing off my problems, running and running and running like a naked, coked-up co-ed who thinks every day is spring break. Well not that bad, but you know." if there was no emotional connection, or heart-to-heart after, between or during adventures.

The Wandering Eye Syndrome is something I've thought about quite a bit, especially because the way your scenario played out is exactly how I would feel if I'd let my walls down, shared my world, and then was left for the next thing. Ouch (this is why I've been so guarded with the 7w8 I mentioned). Though I do see why you deemed the relationship unhealthy and unsatisfying, and ultimately ended it. If I was with a 4 who behaved like that, so would I.

Your friendship experiences do reflect on what the draw between the two types is though-- as it surely is there! Thanks for being so detailed and expressive, I'll probably continue to read over your post and draw more from it as time goes.

I think he was sp-last, actually! He had definitely disintegrated to Two, though.

I don't think healthy relationships between Fours and Sevens are impossible (nothing's impossible). I tried to give these ridiculous illustrations of marinading chickens and coked-up co-eds because that's unfortunately how we'd started to view each other. Ours was not a healthy relationship; we'd take off the gloves instead of working together to find common ground.

The Wandering Eye Syndrome is a risk factor, however. I won't speak for everyone (I know that Sevens can settle down and marry), but this has been my personal experience. I know that I am this way, and trying to explain to my friends that I've never been attracted to a single person at any time in my whole life...well, that gets some weird looks.

The good news is that I don't need to act on those attractions, and if I love somebody enough, then that person can truly be enough. I've never cheated and I love very passionately. The bad news is that I imagine the mere knowledge of my involuntary attractions could make a Four pretty bummed out inside, nurturing feelings of worthlessness and resentment...and that's not how I'd ever want to make a romantic partner of mine feel.

Anyway, I'm glad that you found some worthwhile tidbits to pick over!