Bullying and narcissism.

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Narcissism seems like a popular topic around here, so I found this interesting article.

All bullies are narcissists

For the bully, the victim is what he fears that he himself might be: a loser.

From what I've observed, it seems to be true. The only thing that is truly a surprise to me is the description of bullies as having high-self esteem. I suppose that could be explained as the bullying behavior giving them the high self-esteem. What would be effective solutions for counteracting bullying?


It would help them to face their fear of being a loser, but part of the problem is that they cannot face that because the fear of being a loser is so strong.

 

[RaptorWizard]

No, bullies a lot of times are putting on shows to hide their weaknesses.

 

[digesthisickness]

Right. Bullies are some deep thinkers, all right.

 

[prplchknz]

why do bullies and bullets have the same root? because it's bull and bulls charge after people and hurt them and bullies and bullets also hurt people bullets do so by charging from a gun, while bullies sometime charge but not always. but they both hurt

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I have read a couple authors refer to the condition of someone having appropriate boundaries for his/her self as 'healthy narcissism'. In this use of the term 'narcissism', the op wouldn't especially hold true.

But I think the most common use of the term involves the association of people who have such an inflated sense of self that it blocks their ability to actually empathize with others appropriately (because they can't even see 'others' as such, appropriately- others are nothing more than mirrors to evaluate their own worth in). According to this latter definition, I agree with the op.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Right. Bullies are some deep thinkers, all right.

Bullies can be of any level of intelligence, I think.

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

Bullies can be of any level of intelligence, I think.

Correct.

 

[digesthisickness]

Bullies can be of any level of intelligence, I think.

Make no mistake, I never implied they're all dumb. Plenty bully with words alone. It's called 'emotional abuse' for just one example. What I refuse to buy into is that they've done some deep thinking and self-analysis about their reasons for what they do and then 'express it' outwardly as bullying. Bullshit. Some people are just that selfish and self-involved or hateful as hell and feel better when they make others feel like shit. Period.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Make no mistake, I never implied they're all dumb. Plenty bully with words alone. It's called 'emotional abuse' for just one example. What I refuse to buy into is that they've done some deep thinking and self-analysis about their reasons for what they do and then 'express it' outwardly as bullying.

I didn't get that out of the article at all. Where does it say that? I agree that they do not have self-analysis, but I disagree that the article is suggesting the opposite.

 

[highlander]

That article seems pretty accurate to me though I disagree with the tagline of the thread. I have long thought that people who were abused themselves - physically, emotionally, psychologically, sexually - are the ones that tend to abuse others. That bully on the playground is probably being bullied at home. Not everyone reacts to situations in the same way though and the fact that you were abused as a child doesn't mean you will abuse others though it does make it more likely. A person I went to grade school with has made this her life's work - to combat these issues. It's a dangerous cycle with extremely harmful consequences, as described here, being passed down from one generation to the next.

It's a sad thing that those who were once bullied themselves and harmed by it, bully others and are blind to the hurt and damage their behavior causes others. I am not convinced that all bullies are narcissists because I have known at least one person who suffered from Narcissistic Personality Disorder and there was a whole other set of things going on with that person. There is a difference between NPD and lacking empathy for those that you harm.

This article has some interesting perspectives on the topic.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

That article seems pretty accurate to me though I disagree with the tagline of the thread. I have long thought that people who were abused themselves - physically, emotionally, psychologically, sexually - are the ones that tend to abuse others. That bully on the playground is probably being bullied at home. Not everyone reacts to situations in the same way though and the fact that you were abused as a child doesn't mean you will abuse others though it does make it more likely. A person I went to grade school with has made this her life's work - to combat these issues. It's a dangerous cycle with extremely harmful consequences, as described here, being passed down from one generation to the next.

It's a sad thing that those who were once bullied themselves and harmed by it, bully others and are blind to the hurt and damage their behavior causes others. I am not convinced that all bullies are narcissists because I have known at least one person who suffered from Narcissistic Personality Disorder and there was a whole other set of things going on with that person. There is a difference between NPD and lacking empathy for those that you harm.

This article has some interesting perspectives on the topic.

The thing about that author- Joseph Burgo (I've read a lot of his work and read his blog regularly)- when he uses the word 'narcissist', he's not necessarily referring to a condition that would qualify for a full on NPD diagnosis (which doesn't exist anymore anyway with the latest DSM, I believe). I can't find the exact link right now (in which he gives a full definition of what he means by 'narcissist')- but basically, to him, narcissism is a coping mechanism for people who can't handle feeling shame. It's like being in denial, needing to posit 'inferiority' in other people to feel relief from the fear that we are inferior ourselves- and being so preoccupied with that fear that it blocks our empathy, we don't care we are making someone else feel bad in order to feel better ourselves. And I agree that it's at the core of bullying.

But there are times when it seems to me that Burgo has appropriated these terms to explain things in a way that's rather inconvenient- because many people already have a working definition in their head (of 'narcissism' and 'shame') that don't especially coincide with the way he uses them. [So in that sense, I can see your point....if your own working definition of 'narcissism' clashes with the specific way he's using it.]

eta: According to Burgo, narcissism (as a coping mechanism) is the result of early emotional abuse, so this coincides somewhat with what you said instead contradicting it.

 

[highlander]

The thing about that author- Joseph Burgo (I've read a lot of his work and read his blog regularly)- when he uses the word 'narcissist', he's not necessarily referring to a condition that would qualify for a full on NPD diagnosis (which doesn't exist anymore anyway with the latest DSM, I believe). I can't find the exact link right now (in which he gives a full definition of what he means by 'narcissist')- but basically, to him, narcissism is a coping mechanism for people who can't handle feeling shame. It's like being in denial, needing to posit 'inferiority' in other people to feel relief from the fear that we are inferior ourselves- and being so preoccupied with that fear that it blocks our empathy, we don't care we are making someone else feel bad in order to feel better ourselves. And I agree that it's at the core of bullying.

But there are times when it seems to me that Burgo has appropriated these terms to explain things in a way that's rather inconvenient- because many people already have a working definition in their head (of 'narcissism' and 'shame') that don't especially coincide with the way he uses them. [So in that sense, I can see your point....if your own working definition of 'narcissism' clashes with the specific way he's using it.]

eta: According to Burgo, narcissism (as a coping mechanism) is the result of early emotional abuse, so this coincides somewhat with what you said instead contradicting it.

That's interesting. The person I am thinking of that appeared to demonstrate NDP had these types of characteristics.

- Very intelligent
- Outwardly charming and charismatic; very social
- Expecting admiration and positive reinforcement from others
- Inability to accept criticism and failure to take any blame for own circumstances; everything was somebody else's fault; nothing was ever this person's fault
- Difficulty getting along with others after a period of time
- Highly critical of others while having an aggrandized self image that was disconnected from reality
- Lack of empathy for others - extreme focus on self

I didn't exactly think this person was a bully though they were quite capable of turning on others that did not support their self image.

 

[chickpea]

I'm sick of everyone taking away my right to be a bully. I just want to cyberbully some teens and eat gluten, let me live people.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

That article seems pretty accurate to me though I disagree with the tagline of the thread. I have long thought that people who were abused themselves - physically, emotionally, psychologically, sexually - are the ones that tend to abuse others. That bully on the playground is probably being bullied at home. Not everyone reacts to situations in the same way though and the fact that you were abused as a child doesn't mean you will abuse others though it does make it more likely. A person I went to grade school with has made this her life's work - to combat these issues. It's a dangerous cycle with extremely harmful consequences, as described here, being passed down from one generation to the next.

It's a sad thing that those who were once bullied themselves and harmed by it, bully others and are blind to the hurt and damage their behavior causes others. I am not convinced that all bullies are narcissists because I have known at least one person who suffered from Narcissistic Personality Disorder and there was a whole other set of things going on with that person. There is a difference between NPD and lacking empathy for those that you harm.

This article has some interesting perspectives on the topic.

Interesting stuff. This stood out in particular:

Even if you are not a target, the behavior of a bully seems to permeate the entire atmosphere of an organization, especially if it is disregarded or goes unrecognized by those who have the authority to control it.

This makes me wonder what options are available to curb bullying behavior in the absence of authority.

It also says in the article that they may not necessarily have NPD.

They can mistreat you and yet charm others who either fail to recognize their manipulative and denigrating behavior or who choose to ignore it out of their own need for acceptance or experience of helplessness.

This is also an issue, and is the issue where it becomes especially problematic. A bully by himself or herself, who is condemned by a community, has much less power than one that is accepted by a community. Thus, we see here how laid-back environments can sometimes encourage bullying.

It's also goes into my general theory that if more people worked on self-improvement, the world would be a better place. The word "self" has kind of a negative connotation these days for many people, but if more people tried to do this, it would be harder for others to "use" them.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

- Very intelligent
- Outwardly charming and charismatic; very social
- Expecting admiration and positive reinforcement from others
- Inability to accept criticism and failure to take any blame for own circumstances; everything was somebody else's fault; nothing was ever this person's fault
- Difficulty getting along with others after a period of time
- Highly critical of others while having an aggrandized self image that was disconnected from reality
- Lack of empathy for others - extreme focus on self

Yes, Burgo would consider this narcissism as well- but it’d be like a certain subset of narcissistic behaviors? Much in the way that “crimson” is a hue that falls under the umbrella of “red”: ‘crimson’ is always red, but that does not mean that anything red is also ‘crimson’. Those behaviors listed above are ‘narcissistic’, but not all narcissism can be described with those behaviors.

I’m not willing to type out his book description right now- maybe I’ll find a good blog entry description later to post. In short- there’s a phase in childhood (the narcissistic phase) that everyone goes through. Some people don’t leave that phase with an adequate sense of self- because they didn’t have a caregiver who could adequately mirror/empathize with them- and their ability to empathize with others is stunted because they never passed through that phase of development. In short- the inability to empathize because of abuse/neglect during this phase of development all falls under the umbrella of ‘narcissism’.

So overt bullying does qualify- it just isn’t what usually comes to mind when one thinks ‘narcissist’. Most narcissists revert to manipulation over and above overt bullying to meet their ego needs. In fact, overt bullying kinda works against it- because their methods of dumping ‘shame’ onto others necessarily need to be more clandestine than overt bullying in order to be effective.

/might not be explaining it very well, and anyway, doesn’t mean to sound like some expert

 

[Seymour]

i think the theory is that bad attachment leads to a negative self image (a sense of feeling flawed and worthless/unlovable; shame). One way to cope with a negative self image is by trying to build (contingent) self-esteem externally. That means one desperately needs positive external feedback to counteract the negative internal voices (the pervasive sense of shame). However, such self-esteem is contingent on positive feedback, including feeling superior to others. When such positive feedback isn't forthcoming, one way to produce it is to feel superior to someone else by bullying them and running them down, thereby showing one's dominance and superiority.

I think it's possible to bully without being a narcissist (in the diagnostic sense), but it's certainly a narcissist approach to building a sense of self-worth. It depends on treating others as lessor in order to build one's own self image.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

So overt bullying does qualify- it just isn’t what usually comes to mind when one thinks ‘narcissist’. Most narcissists revert to manipulation over and above overt bullying to meet their ego needs. In fact, overt bullying kinda works against it- because their methods of dumping ‘shame’ onto others necessarily need to be more clandestine than overt bullying in order to be effective.

/might not be explaining it very well, and anyway, doesn’t mean to sound like some expert

Trying to pick at someone's weaknesses and get under their skin, for no other reason than to feel superior, though, that's overt bullying, isn't it? It doesn't really seem like manipulation at all. I'm not sure that manipulation is really associated with trying to shame people at all. Manipulation is the attempt to influence the behavior of others through indirect means, in the hope that the other person won't be aware of it.

You're saying that his definition of narcissist doesn't meet the diagnostic criteria, and that narcissists are not likely to be true bullies, correct?

 

[Z Buck McFate]

You're saying that his definition of narcissist doesn't meet the diagnostic criteria, and that narcissists are not likely to be true bullies, correct?

Actually, the bullet points highlander posted are pretty much exactly the criteria of 'diagnosable' narcissism (as I understand it). :/ "You know you're bad at articulating thoughts when..." I was trying to explain how Burgo's use of the term "narcissism" stretches a bit beyond that which highlander described. Seymour did a better job than I did- it's about attachment not being made during the narcissistic phase.

And the point I was trying to make about narcissists and overt bullying is that a lot of narcissists wouldn't actually consider themselves bullies. They're still very much 'true bullies' (if my understanding of what you mean by this is correct)- they just don't seen themselves that way. They're so good at twisting the truth around (and wholly believing the 'truth' they come up with) that they don't realize they're positing themselves in a superior position....they think they're just 'pointing out the truth'. Some of them are actually exceptional masterminds at becoming 'victims' in order to control what others are doing, thinking or feeling- and they actually feel like the victim while they're emotionally bullying others.

Trying to pick at someone's weaknesses and get under their skin, for no other reason than to feel superior, though, that's overt bullying, isn't it? It doesn't really seem like manipulation at all. I'm not sure that manipulation is really associated with trying to shame people at all. Manipulation is the attempt to influence the behavior of others through indirect means, in the hope that the other person won't be aware of it.

It isn't always to get under someone else's skin or to 'shame' them- the (relatively) unconscious goal of the narcissist is to purge unwanted feelings of shame and to feel superior to others. Sometimes this is done through 'shaming' and humiliation, sometimes it's a much more subtle positing of the notion that one is superior.

This is deviating somewhat from the point of the op, somewhat, probably- because I think the op is putting forth the premise that all overt bullying is narcissm. But my point in going on the side tangent was to explain how (according to Burgo, guy who wrote the article you linked) 'narcissistic wounds' are at the core: when a person's narcissistic phase of development is stunted, then other people (in varying degrees) are just objects that either make us feel good or make us feel bad, empathy never properly develops. Overt bullying is one of the products of this kind of stunting.

[Again- I do not claim to be any kind of expert, I'm just trying to paraphrase that which I've read on the subject.]

 

[Ginkgo]

I'm sick of everyone taking away my right to be a bully. I just want to cyberbully some teens and eat gluten, let me live people.