Do narcisists know they are narcisistic?

[Giggly]

Or are they in denial? Maybe they know but don't care? What do you think?

Paging [MENTION=6877]Marmotini[/MENTION] - she probably know something.

 

[Jaq]

Probably, though it most likely depends on a case by case basis.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't think many narcissists do. They couldn't be anything so lame as a narcissist.

Some could, perhaps, but probably most of them don't, unless they've been to a psychiatrist. And why would they go? They're such awesome healthy people!

 

[Z Buck McFate]

From what I've read, I've gathered that most do not realize they are. There's many different ways to qualify "narcissist"- from everyday narcissism to full on NPD behaviors, but pretty much across the board it's a coping mechanism (which means they don't realize it's there).

Not all narcissists have high self-esteem, but I think something they do have in common is an inflated sense of entitlement to take advantage of others/objectify others (eta: and only feeling empathy when it's convenient or when it yields some desired returns- instead of feeling it out of authentic concern for others). If they realized they were objectifying others and expecting attention or resources (or whatever) and felt some kind of entitlement *just because*- and they still felt no shame for taking advantage of others- then they'd be sociopaths instead narcissists.

That's my understanding anyway. I've read a fair amount on it.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

From what I've read, I've gathered that most do not realize they are. There's many different ways to qualify "narcissist"- from everyday narcissism to full on NPD behaviors, but pretty much across the board it's a coping mechanism (which means they don't realize it's there).

Not all narcissists have high self-esteem, but I think something they do have in common is an inflated sense of entitlement to take advantage of others/objectify others (eta: and only feeling empathy when it's convenient or when it yields some desired returns- instead of feeling it out of authentic concern for others).

It should be noted that there is also a difference between feeling empathy, and acting on it.

One may feel empathy, but may choose to disregard it in certain circumstances. Suppose someone, for instance, is kind of a jerk. You understand why they are a jerk, but that doesn't stop them from being a jerk. Nothing you can say or do will make them less of a jerk. Should someone respond with empathy, or not?

 

[Z Buck McFate]

It should be noted that there is also a difference between feeling empathy, and acting on it.

One may feel empathy, but may choose to disregard it in certain circumstances. Suppose someone, for instance, is kind of a jerk. You understand why they are a jerk, but that doesn't stop them from being a jerk. Nothing you can say or do will make them less of a jerk. Should someone respond with empathy, or not?

Yeah, interesting, because I don't normally think- when my patience runs out with some people and I stop caring- I'd classify that as 'narcissism'. I mean- is it narcissistic to have boundaries? In a way it is, I guess- at least, maybe according to Fromm's definition of 'narcissism'- but then lack of boundaries is its own problem (codependency....which narcissists are drawn to like flies to honey).

I think it's more like the motivation to ever feel 'empathy', for narcissists, is fueled by what they can get in return (quite often, this amounts to how others make them feel- they need to be admired). And I use scare quotes because it isn't....real empathy? They don't actually see other people as being individuals with valid feelings, it's more like others are just mirrors for them (to make them feel important/valuable/worthy of love). If you can turn feelings for someone off practically overnight, especially strong feelings- then those feelings are narcissistic: they're more about what you get from the person than actually caring about that person.

eta: And so anyway- yeah I agree it's possible to feel genuine empathy and not act on it. When acting on it wouldn't especially be productive or helpful to the individual in question, then it can be pointless- but there can still be genuine empathy there.

 

[Forever_Jung]

A few years ago, I told a therapist I was a narcissist. And she said: no you're not; you're a teenager.

Later, she added more seriously that narcissists almost never acknowledge that quality in themselves. Not sure how much she knows though...

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Narcissists need to be admired... interesting. Could this mean that they might be threatened by someone they think might be better than them at something important to them? Not that it is or isn't the case, but if they feel a threat?

 

[cafe]

I would imagine they believe themselves eminently reasonable and other people overly-sensitive, selfish, etc.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I would imagine they believe themselves eminently reasonable and other people overly-sensitive, selfish, etc.

Do you think it is impossible for someone to be over-sensitive?

I think it isn't. A lot of bullies are over-sensitive, though perhaps they don't get called that.

 

[cafe]

Do you think it is even possible for someone to be over-sensitive?

I think it is. A lot of bullies are over-sensitive, though perhaps they don't get called that.

I think you are what you are. If you happen to be sensitive, don't dish out what you don't want to take.

It, to me, has to do with your valuation of others in comparison to yourself and an expectation of reciprocity. I would think a narcissist would have a skewed perception of their own value and the value of their contributions.

 

[Evo]

Or are they in denial? Maybe they know but don't care? What do you think?

Paging [MENTION=6877]Marmotini[/MENTION] - she probably know something.

May I ask you to define what a narcissist is? Si vous plait?

I ask because, firstly I think that word is used rather loosly around this forum (I'm growing tired of it actually), secondly, because there's a disorder and then there's the people that orgasm from looking at them selves in the mirror. The disorder is very different from the latter. Thirdly, everything is relative. I am probably more narcissistic than most feelers, but not more than other Te/Ni doms.

 

[Giggly]

May I ask you to define what a narcissist is? Si vous plait?

I ask because, firstly I think that word is used rather loosly around this forum (I'm growing tired of it actually), secondly, because there's a disorder and then there's the people that orgasm from looking at them selves in the mirror. The disorder is very different from the latter. Thirdly, everything is relative. I am probably more narcissistic than most feelers, but not more than other Te/Ni doms.

First and foremost, this thread is not about you or even hinting at you or anyone else on this forum. Just want to make that clear. Any discussions that have taken place around here about narcissists, I have not followed and know nothing about. It was just a question that came to my mind so I asked.

Second, here you go
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

 

[Evo]

First and foremost, this thread is not about you or even hinting at you or anyone else on this forum. Just want to make that clear. Any discussions that have taken place around here about narcissists, I have not followed and know nothing about. It was just a question that came to my mind so I asked.

Second, here you go
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism

I guess I was displaying a hint of "This is about me" ?

If so, I'm sorry I didn't really think I was doing that


Which I find ironic and hilarious, now that I think of it, because we are talking about narcissim. ha ha

I wouldn't read too much into the (growing tired of it part, if that's what had happended when you read my post?) .... I wasn't talking about growing tired of you or anything like that...

I was referring to getting tired of the word not being defined lol

Hmm that site has info about both, so I am still not clear on the definiton.

But that's ok, I'm just gonna pick one:

The concept of excessive selfishness = narcissist. And in that case my answer is no, they don't know that they're being that way.

In that they probably accept that they come off arrogant, and think others are stupid, but they can't see the destruction it does. Because they can't see anything but their own perspective. They have a lack of even wanting to see other peoples' perspectives.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I am an aware 'narcissist'. I will bracket it because it is not any kind of mental desease form of narcisism.

My narcisism is basicly due to the fact that in most social situations, I appear to always have most answers, I am always able to define my answers quite well and whilest I wouldn't ever claim to be the smartest person in the room (for such a opinion would have to be severely biased) I do think I am ever and always capable of reaching understanding both swiftly and accurately, in that no subject ever goes above my head. I feel like I can handle anything that comes my way intellectually.

Most of the times this works out just fine, but of course, there are times I can let this get to my head a bit too much. It doesn't happen that much the past few years and was more the case in my younger years. But when this happens, I am always painfully aware of it afterwards. I try to deal with my narcissism most of the time through self-deprecating humor, by presenting myself as the narcissist I sometimes am and blow it way out of proportions at the cost of myself.

I regularly feel 'better' then other people and I regularly feel saddened that I did afterwards for as smart as I may be, I have yet to be able to truely define any type of objective value to those feelings of superiority. In fact, I'm pretty sure they don't exist. Yet the feelings of superiority tend to persist, especially in localized and heavily categorized situations.

Although I still struggle to this day with my narcissism. I am at least glad that I seem to be able to stay away from making generalizations and when such situations arise, that I am at least able to focus my narcissism on the individual parties involved. Even though my self-deprecating humor often suggests major generalisation is the case.



This post is a good example. Just by saying this in public, even though I truely feel that this is and as accurate a description of my narcissism as I can give in these few words, the fact I write this down already has the effect of making me feel in some ways superior, at least over any other outspoken or closet narcissist. But also the fact that I am capable of realizing this side of me exists and taking pride in the fact that I do. But at the same time I also know that that feeling is entirely meaningless and without any merit or value whatsoever. Ultimately, I don't post this to stroke my ego, but to discuss a topic with others. Yet I can't really stop the ego stroking. So I will just end up kicking myself in the nuts as I make another joke about my awesomeness in general and brush it off as nothing more than the farce that it is, even though I feel good about myself while doing it.


Also, while it is etremely flattering, the fact that other people often enable me in this makes it hard for me to sometimes accept compliments at face value. I've even been known to fall to irrationality just in order to try and avoid compliments. Although it's been a while since I've been so extreme about it. I still to this day sometimes remain irrationally skeptical about some compliments I get, not really allowing myself to feel the gratitude that I should feel. Such compliments I still regularly respond to with some lame kneejerk self-deprecating humorous one liner as well.

 

[Fluffywolf]

-An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges
Very true, in the cases this was not true, it required a lot of effort and energy on my part.

-Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships
Very true, but something I am trying to work on.

-A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic)
Not true

-Difficulty with empathy
Sometimes

-Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries)
Not true

-Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury)
Sometimes, but you know, apathy.

-Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt
No vulnerability to neither, does that mean super narcissist?

-Haughty body language
Not true

-Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply)
Partly true

-Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse)
Sometimes

-Using other people without considering the cost of doing so
Rarily but has happened, I even used people while considered the cost of doing so and still did it.

-Pretending to be more important than they really are
All the time, but I try to do so blatantly and obviously. Self-deprecating humor.

-Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements
All the time, again though, not particularly subtly, or at least in a way that I feel like my bragging is exposed. Self-deprecating humor.

-Claiming to be an "expert" at many things
All the time

-Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people
Very true

-Denial of remorse and gratitude
True, but as I've said I'm trying to work on this.


Out of the 16 traits, there are only three I don't identify with at all, a couple I identity with only slightly and most I identify with completely. And I feel both crap as well as awesome about it.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Narcissists need to be admired... interesting. Could this mean that they might be threatened by someone they think might be better than them at something important to them? Not that it is or isn't the case, but if they feel a threat?

It’s probably more accurate (than saying they ‘need to be admired’ <-I realize those are my words, but I'm expounding on it) to say their feelings of self worth are dependent on external validation/attention instead of any steadfast internal feelings of self worth. They can go from feeling like ‘top of the world’ to ‘bottom of the barrel’ in no time at all, it’s fleeting because there’s no internal gluent holding those feelings of self worth in place- and it keeps a person in a constant state of scarcity. They need attention and validation from the outside to make them feel worthy, and they become so preoccupied with securing that kind of attention/validation that they don’t have any energy/resources left over to altruistically give attention/validation where they don’t expect at least as much given back in return.

Even when they’re feeling benevolent, they’re still in a state of scarcity because (so long as it’s rooted on the outside) it could disappear- so they’re always already more concerned with how to get attention/validation than they are with whether or not they are giving any; though they are usually incredibly manipulative and will often explain how ‘giving’ they are if you try to call them on it…..and they’ll believe their explanation, too, because if benevolence is part of their identity then they need to feel ‘giving’. And it can be a vicious cycle- the more dependent they are on outside validation/attention to affirm self worth, the more insecure they actually become and the less attention/validation they have to altruistically give anyone else.

eta: And actually, I don't think they'd feel threatened by someone else who 'might' be better at them at something.....so long at that person verifies their sense of self worth. Then that person would essentially just become another reflection of how valuable they are.

 

[the state i am in]

i don't have a very advanced understanding of it, but it seems to be the other side of shame. it's an ability or willingness to try to control the world around you more so that on the inside you don't have to process anything or make changes. a 100% extroverted response that results from a person disconnecting from their own interior because they don't want to feel the whole of themselves and their situatedness and will not let what they want be overtaken by what is real for others.

it's the ultimate form of self-denial, because it precludes real relationship. if a person doesn't relate to themselves, on the inside, they just can't relate to others. if they're not open to others truth, they can't really be open to themselves and an honest assessment of the value of their effects in the world.

narcissism is just a really big, really frustrating form of repression that utilizes a kind of sx energy, a focus on what one wants, to deny reality and ultimately the inner experience that allows one to know reality for themselves sincerely. in other words, it shifts one's emotional focus, instead of feeling whether one still has enough left after taking the hit, they instead shift all of their focus to the object they want, that will make them feel better or fulfill a drive of theirs. it's a kind of impatience and willed ignorance and shouting over the top of something. that it can be super connected to obtaining superficial forms of validation just kind of reinforces its superficiality as a method for coping with one's own shittiness, something we all have to face at some point and learn to relate to constructively.

edit: as far as craving validation goes, that's just a part of life. we all want/need attention, we all want/need appreciation (and affection, allowing, acceptance, etc), often to highly varying degrees depending on our expectations from childhood, the ways we manage our emotional mood swings and overall temperament pattern, our emotional intelligence and maturity level, etc. and some of us, sx types in particular, need somewhat high doses of those things. we always want to feel special, the center of attention, the most desired object and the most powerful actor. and we all have this instinct operating at some level, even if we don't identify with it as constantly. you can see narcissistic behaviors from so/sp types who are in intense depression, or so/sx types who are trying to win everyone over and seemingly completely untethered to any sense of who they are apart from others, etc, just like you can have sx narcissists. i think the underlying thing is that it's partly a dysfunctional relationship between sx, so, and sp, and the particular emotion of shame. it's a lack of a willingness to grieve oneself, so there is no moving on, there is just a continual blotting out of a huge aspect of the self, the site of the self where compassion, acceptance, empathy, and all aspects of emotional relating stem from. and it's only through being present in this aspect of ourselves that we can at all start to rebalance our sense of "enoughness" to not just focus on what we can constantly get but instead interprets our sense of well-being based on how much we are making that we can freely give.

 

[prplchknz]

know how I know I'm not a narcisist, I sometimes believe I am, which means I'm not.

 

[Fluffywolf]

know how I know I'm not a narcisist, I sometimes believe I am, which means I'm not.

I believed that for a while. It wasn't true. At least not for me.

I don't hate being a narcissist (in fact, I quite enjoy it), but I do try to keep it in check as much as I possibly can, because I also see the potential pitfalls that come with it. I at least try to relativate it as much as possible as to not jump to any hasty conclusions that stem from my narcissistic nature, instead of reaching conclusions through deliberation and introspection.