[INTJ] INTJ friend going through a personal crisis

[Coriolis]

There are two different routes on helping him;
The listening tactic thing you mentioned, which will help him to talk and have someone who shows compassions etc, this will help him to review all that came to consciousness from him imagination, all his insecurities and all those what if's and what not. I know that INTJs tend to color their world based on those Ni(which is guided by Fi to some degree) images they get from their head, which are not often really in line with the real world, and that might get them to feel more grim than they would if they werent getting all these imaginative things going through their head, like insecurities and other complexes relating to this issue(which are just creating a negative bias towards himself). This listening tactic will allow them to flourish and if the listener can do a good job, he might be able to point out that some of the insecurities and what not are not realistic and that way help him to get over this thing.

Then there is the tactic i mentioned. What this aims to do is to guide his processing to this more relevant thing(she cheated on him and he should had left that bitch earlier), which will hinder the insecurities from being so strong and possibly some other negative stuff from coming to consciousness(at least so strongly). Which will most likely feel worse for a second(as the bad stuff is just thrown at his face), but also i think it will be easier for him to get over it as there is less shit being processed. Also because this attitude will focus on not the INTJs decisions so much(really only to the one where he should had left her), but more of creating a negative image about the bitch who cheated on him and focus on the fact that she just was a bitch and ofc he couldnt had noticed that early because thats not something she will freely tell in the beginning of their relationship.

While the first approach is more about trying to ease the pain that the INTJ is creating himself from the point of view of consciousness. The second approach is more about tinkering with the INTJs unconscious mind and manipulating it to make it easier for the INTJ to ease his pain himself. I think that best results in trying to get any change in an INTJ is to tinker with their unconscious. As manipulative it might sound like, but INTJs tend to be so hard headed(Ni world ruling their ego) that you cant get anything in through their consciousness(as ego doesent want to change and Ni visions being the most trusted source of their ego and this Ni ego shield thing is to a large degree unconsciously controlled by their Fi).

It is not a good idea to try manipulate an INTJs unconscious mind, especially if you want them to consider you a friend. You are underestimating the role of aux Te in how INTJs deal with situations like this. It is not so much NI-Fi images that fill our minds, as the same kind of critical Te analysis that we apply to everything else. If anything, we see in hindsight all those facts and objective details that we were either unwilling to see or at least willing to overlook before, in the interests of preserving what we considered a greater good, in the case, the relationship.

The purpose of my suggested approach is not to make the INTJ feel better about the situation, or even to show compassion. It is essentially to be a neutral sounding board, helping him focus on the facts of the situation so those Te self-judgements are as realistic and productive as possible. The friend should thus offer neither criticism like the highlighted statement in paragraph 2, nor empty coddling, nor even badmouthing of the cheating wife. Just affirmation of the bare facts of the matter, and support to the INTJ in dealing with them. We don't need other people to try to make us feel better, or to try to solve our problems. In fact, the first will seem empty, and the second futile or even patronizing. Especially with personal problems like this, we have to solve them by ourselves. Friends can certainly help, but they cannot do the work for us.

Bottom line: the best response from a friend is neither consolation nor criticism, but neutral reflection of the facts, and consistent friendly and trustworthy behavior.

 

[INTP]

It is not a good idea to try manipulate an INTJs unconscious mind, especially if you want them to consider you a friend. You are underestimating the role of aux Te in how INTJs deal with situations like this. It is not so much NI-Fi images that fill our minds, as the same kind of critical Te analysis that we apply to everything else. If anything, we see in hindsight all those facts and objective details that we were either unwilling to see or at least willing to overlook before, in the interests of preserving what we considered a greater good, in the case, the relationship.

My suggestion does take Te into account; "she is a bitch". Also i might had misworded a bit, but its not the unconscious mind that would be manipulated, but how the conscious mind relates to the impulses coming from the unconscious, and this would have an effect on how the unconscious mind focuses aswell. I kinda disagree that it would be a bad idea to manipulate and INTJ(as long as its done for something positive), its really not even that hard to do, as long as you can see where the walls are placed and not try to force anything(in which case there will only be a stronger resistance to anything that you say to them).

Also i think that this might be different for INTJ females and males, and naturally how blunt you can be depends on the situation.

 

[Coriolis]

My suggestion does take Te into account; "she is a bitch". Also i might had misworded a bit, but its not the unconscious mind that would be manipulated, but how the conscious mind relates to the impulses coming from the unconscious, and this would have an effect on how the unconscious mind focuses aswell. I kinda disagree that it would be a bad idea to manipulate and INTJ(as long as its done for something positive), its really not even that hard to do, as long as you can see where the walls are placed and not try to force anything(in which case there will only be a stronger resistance to anything that you say to them).

Also i think that this might be different for INTJ females and males, and naturally how blunt you can be depends on the situation.

"She's a bitch" is a value judgement, coming more from the Fi that values fidelity and trustworthiness. Te will tally up exactly what was done to break that trust, identifying clues that should have been noticed, questions that should have been asked, things that should have been done. In short, all the reasons for characterizing her as a bitch.

I am not saying it is never useful to be blunt or even harsh with an INTJ in these circumstances, just that the harshness should not cross the line into direct criticism or making value judgements for them. For instance, instead of saying, "she's a bitch; you should have left her long ago"*, better to enumerate the reasons as plainly as possible: "she cheated on you at least 3 times before this; she lied to you about X, Y, and Z; you have already given her the benefit of the doubt on many occasions; etc." The INTJ can and in fact must put the pieces together him/herself for the conclusion to be trusted. The most a friend can do is to make sure they are all in the box and turned rightside up. If the picture he/she arrives at is not what you expected, that's OK, since you the friend are not the one who has the box lid.

Good luck manipulating the INTJs in your life. If you want to retain or regain their trust, you will have to give them quite convincing proof that the manipulation saved them from enormous disaster when nothing else would have worked. Also, don't overestimate the effect of gender. I have found type trumps gender every time, especially with my own type.

* It's not even that it's wrong to say this. The INTJ will appreciate it as show of support. It is the other type of discussion that will be more useful, though.

 

[Anew Leaf]

My suggestion does take Te into account; "she is a bitch". Also i might had misworded a bit, but its not the unconscious mind that would be manipulated, but how the conscious mind relates to the impulses coming from the unconscious, and this would have an effect on how the unconscious mind focuses aswell. I kinda disagree that it would be a bad idea to manipulate and INTJ(as long as its done for something positive), its really not even that hard to do, as long as you can see where the walls are placed and not try to force anything(in which case there will only be a stronger resistance to anything that you say to them).

Also i think that this might be different for INTJ females and males, and naturally how blunt you can be depends on the situation.

You need to seriously listen to [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] here. The idea of manipulating an INTJ is pretty hilarious. Because quite honestly Ne types are the types that THINK they are some kind of magical ninja when to an INTJ we are wearing tap shoes on a metal floor while eating chips and whipping our cellophane packaged arms around.

If you think you know where the walls are placed, you are wrong. They are smoke and mirrors with the illusion of cheesecake.

 

[INTP]

"She's a bitch" is a value judgement, coming more from the Fi that values fidelity and trustworthiness.

T defines things and there is no value judgment there, a value judgment would be when you think about whether something is good or bad. Sure a cheating bitch isnt a positive thing(the value thing is implicit, since its something that the other person makes up for the word bitch), but regardless of whether you think it is a positive or negative thing, a cheating bitch is a cheating bitch, thats a fact(if we go by certain definitions which T makes), not a value judgment.

 

[INTP]

You need to seriously listen to Coriolis here. The idea of manipulating an INTJ is pretty hilarious. Because quite honestly Ne types are the types that THINK they are some kind of magical ninja when to an INTJ we are wearing tap shoes on a metal floor while eating chips and whipping our cellophane packaged arms around.

If you think you know where the walls are placed, you are wrong. They are smoke and mirrors with the illusion of cheesecake.

Sorry but having had an close INTJ friend for 14 years, i can spot the walls pretty easily(and know how to spot them without the INTJ noticing that i noticed, also i do recognize when there is too much resistance, which most of the time is the case cuz.. well INTJ) and smoke or mirrors doesent do any good. Also poking at the walls is pretty fun and i have succeeded to even poke some holes in them

 

[Coriolis]

T defines things and there is no value judgment there, a value judgment would be when you think about whether something is good or bad. Sure a cheating bitch isnt a positive thing(the value thing is implicit, since its something that the other person makes up for the word bitch), but regardless of whether you think it is a positive or negative thing, a cheating bitch is a cheating bitch, thats a fact(if we go by certain definitions which T makes), not a value judgment.

If you consider "bitch" an objective designation, like "liar" then this would be correct. I consider it subjective, however, hence in the realm of Fi, supported of course by those Te evaluations.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Sorry but having had an close INTJ friend for 14 years, i can spot the walls pretty easily(and know how to spot them without the INTJ noticing that i noticed, also i do recognize when there is too much resistance, which most of the time is the case cuz.. well INTJ) and smoke or mirrors doesent do any good. Also poking at the walls is pretty fun and i have succeeded to even poke some holes in them

My INTJ decided to teach me the ways of his kind.

Lesson #1: Never show your cards.
Lesson #2: Unless showing your cards is a part of your plan to not show your cards.
Lesson #3: So then show your cards.

Also, even if at this point in your relationship you think you know where your walls are, it's because the INTJ is letting you and if your security access card needs to be revoked it can and will be at any time sans warning.

Also, I know the INTP ilk and there is nothing subtle about what any of you guys do ever. It's not a bad thing. But it is a thing.

 

[Coriolis]

My INTJ decided to teach me the ways of his kind.

Lesson #1: Never show your cards.
Lesson #2: Unless showing your cards is a part of your plan to not show your cards.
Lesson #3: So then show your cards.

Also, even if at this point in your relationship you think you know where your walls are, it's because the INTJ is letting you and if your security access card needs to be revoked it can and will be at any time sans warning.

Don't think that because you encounter and "overcome" resistance that it was not somehow wanted, and part of the plan, or at least the hope. It can be very hard to let down the resistance, so you will still feel it. We know what you are doing, though, and will let you proceed because somehow we understand we need it. This is how you know we consider you a friend.

As for the rest, Saturned, your INTJ may have to turn in his credentials if he keeps divulging our secrets like this.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Don't think that because you encounter and "overcome" resistance that it was not somehow wanted, and part of the plan, or at least the hope. It can be very hard to let down the resistance, so you will still feel it. We know what you are doing, though, and will let you proceed because somehow we understand we need it. This is how you know we consider you a friend.

Oh, interesting. It's difficult to push much since I hate intruding. But once I see I am allowed then I do it to the extent that I can do it with hands open palmed so they know what my intentions are.

As for the rest, Saturned, your INTJ may have to turn in his credentials if he keeps divulging our secrets like this.

*looks up from her notes in regards to lesson 27*

Oops!

 

[Coriolis]

Oh, interesting. It's difficult to push much since I hate intruding. But once I see I am allowed then I do it to the extent that I can do it with hands open palmed so they know what my intentions are.

This is wise, useful, and probably much appreciated. Note that it should be attempted only if you know the INTJ very well, and has his/her trust. What I am describing is a perhaps unfortunate aspect of our intimate relationships, be they romantic or platonic. It is just plain hard to talk about certain things, to reveal certain things, however much we may trust you or even want to share them with those closest to us. Outside of an intimate relationship we will make sure the resistance succeeds, and is well camouflaged.

 

[Anew Leaf]

This is wise, useful, and probably much appreciated. Note that it should be attempted only if you know the INTJ very well, and has his/her trust. What I am describing is a perhaps unfortunate aspect of our intimate relationships, be they romantic or platonic. It is just plain hard to talk about certain things, to reveal certain things, however much we may trust you or even want to share them with those closest to us. Outside of an intimate relationship we will make sure the resistance succeeds, and is well camouflaged.

Ohhh, that makes a lot of sense. And helps to clarify quite a bit of what I have suspected or perhaps noticed a hint of but didn't quite investigate.

So let's say it IS well camouflaged but I am an emotional wunderkind and I sort of suspect and point something out and then holy hells the jerky mcjerkface intj mask comes out and it's like happy times at camp hugs are now over and the sun is rising in not the east and the ground just opened up beneath me and I have been sucked into a queer vortex of paper. Is All Ruination and I should just leave the situation or try to apologize or what? Or is what I am describing too vague for an adequate response?

 

[Coriolis]

Ohhh, that makes a lot of sense. And helps to clarify quite a bit of what I have suspected or perhaps noticed a hint of but didn't quite investigate.

So let's say it IS well camouflaged but I am an emotional wunderkind and I sort of suspect and point something out and then holy hells the jerky mcjerkface intj mask comes out and it's like happy times at camp hugs are now over and the sun is rising in not the east and the ground just opened up beneath me and I have been sucked into a queer vortex of paper. Is All Ruination and I should just leave the situation or try to apologize or what? Or is what I am describing too vague for an adequate response?

It is vague, and the answer will depend strongly on circumstances such as how well you know each other, the nature of the relationship, your history/track record with this person, even whether your suspicions are correct. In all cases, though, the best response is minimalist: a simple "sorry" and move on as if it never happened (and know not to do it again).. If you know the person a bit better, say a close and longtime coworker, you might venture a simple "what's wrong?". The INTJ might share a tiny bit, or say outright he/she doesn't want to discuss it, or simply say "nothing". Again, just take the response you get, and don't make a big deal out of it. Other options will likely just make things worse.

 

[Anew Leaf]

It is vague, and the answer will depend strongly on circumstances such as how well you know each other, the nature of the relationship, your history/track record with this person, even whether your suspicions are correct. In all cases, though, the best response is minimalist: a simple "sorry" and move on as if it never happened (and know not to do it again).. If you know the person a bit better, say a close and longtime coworker, you might venture a simple "what's wrong?". The INTJ might share a tiny bit, or say outright he/she doesn't want to discuss it, or simply say "nothing". Again, just take the response you get, and don't make a big deal out of it. Other options will likely just make things worse.

Excellent. You make such a beautiful INTJ spokesperson.

 

[Coriolis]

Excellent. You make such a beautiful INTJ spokesperson.

I don't usually speak so freely from a "we" perspective, and should have made the usual caveat earlier about not being able to speak for all INTJs. Individuals vary significantly within each type. To the extent that we share common thought processes when it comes to vulnerability, intimacy, and personal sharing, it is probably safe to go by what I have said in the absence of contraindications.

 

[Anew Leaf]

I don't usually speak so freely from a "we" perspective, and should have made the usual caveat earlier about not being able to speak for all INTJs. Individuals vary significantly within each type. To the extent that we share common thought processes when it comes to vulnerability, intimacy, and personal sharing, it is probably safe to go by what I have said in the absence of contraindications.

That makes sense. And I made sure to add the grain of salt caveat of, this is her perspective from experience and what makes sense. It's at least a reasonable goal post to stand by for the now if the other INTJ is unable to explain behavior in a manner sans rudeness.

 

[Coriolis]

That makes sense. And I made sure to add the grain of salt caveat of, this is her perspective from experience and what makes sense. It's at least a reasonable goal post to stand by for the now if the other INTJ is unable to explain behavior in a manner sans rudeness.

Yes, when inappropriately prodded in the manner you have described, we do often react in a way that most people would consider rude. Carry on - and good luck.

 

[Ene]

I have had such a bustling busy day today that I've not had an opportunity to properly address this thread, though I have wanted to. I sincerely thank you [MENTION=7595]INTP[/MENTION] for your input and insight. And I think for many people your approach would work. However, I know my friend well enough to know that even though I don't always know precisely what to say to him, I usually know what not to say to him. And although I do think she did him wrong, I don't think she's a bad person, but I do think she has some deep seated self-esteem issues and that perhaps having someone fall "in love" with her gives her some sense of self worth. I absolutely believe my friend is justified in his decision and I know that he has contemplated it long and hard before reaching his decision. Having said that, I will add that I believe, based on your communication of your thoughts, [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] that you are more like him than anyone else I've spoken with and I've taken your words in this thread very seriously and have been remembering your advice when speaking to him. About the rudeness, I would never call him rude. He is matter of fact, but he is not really rude, at least I don't see him as rude. Some may though.

 

[INTP]

My INTJ decided to teach me the ways of his kind.

Lesson #1: Never show your cards.
Lesson #2: Unless showing your cards is a part of your plan to not show your cards.
Lesson #3: So then show your cards.

Also, even if at this point in your relationship you think you know where your walls are, it's because the INTJ is letting you and if your security access card needs to be revoked it can and will be at any time sans warning.

Also, I know the INTP ilk and there is nothing subtle about what any of you guys do ever. It's not a bad thing. But it is a thing.

Well, im pretty good at seeing the cards that people are trying not to show(and i know that INTJs try not to show their cards most the time, but i would suspect that they show their cards more in a romantic relationship), especially if i know the person. Also im really good at not letting the other person know that i have seen his cards(this is where the real power comes from).

What comes to being subtle, i can do that just fine, its just that sometimes i dont care to do that and the subtle stuff can be hidden behind something blunt. Maybe this didnt apply to me when i was 16.

 

[INTP]

If you consider "bitch" an objective designation, like "liar" then this would be correct. I consider it subjective, however, hence in the realm of Fi, supported of course by those Te evaluations.

Bitch means a woman who acts like a female dog in heat. There is no value judgment in the definition, but the value judgment is what you associate with the term. Its funny that you just said that the Fi isnt in such a big role, but now you showed that you are automatically putting a value judgment on a objective term

You are acting just the way my intention was for using the term bitch originally. The reason why i thought about using the term bitch was to say objectively that she is acting like a female dog in heat(which is at least almost true, enough to be held as objective truth for Te), but also brings negative association with the term. And because it can be seen as objectively truth(Te), the negative association can be more easily be accepted as true aswell. And if he will associate the reasons for all this(/put the blame) on her, it will ease his pain more because the bitch is whos fault it is, not his(at least so much or completely his fault).