The Hardest Type to be in The Enneagram

[JocktheMotie]

I relate to essentially all of this (eerily so), except the part toward the end- I don't really feel "disdain for" or a sense of superiority over more emotionally reactive people. I do empathetically feel where they're coming from, and sure, ideally, it'd be wonderful if people could pause, and think more often before reacting.. but I accept this is no easy feat, and that perhaps I may be at a deficit at times for remaining stoic, as well. I'm also not a 100% robot, either, so who am I to judge? I can feel quite drained/frustrated by the reactivity, however, and I suppose some of that comes from being more analytic when it comes to intense emotions.

Disdain probably wasn’t the best word (projection on my part, herp derp) but I was describing that as coming from a 5 who would think their detachment is a “superior” perspective to the “inferior” one of more emotive people.

I am also extremely, extremely drained by reactive people as well, but it seems to manifest in me as an impatient, silent rage. Emotive, reactive people I feel are so not contained it can sometimes make me very agitated a weird way that’s difficult for me to explain. I almost feel burdened and responsible for their states, and feel either they or I need to control it. Again, it’s a projection of my needs to be contained and not a burden that I unconsciously expect others to have that same need.

 

[Lexicon]

Disdain probably wasn’t the best word (projection on my part, herp derp) but I was describing that as coming from a 5 who would think their detachment is a “superior” perspective to the “inferior” one of more emotive people.

I am also extremely, extremely drained by reactive people as well, but it seems to manifest in me as an impatient, silent rage. Emotive, reactive people I feel are so not contained it can sometimes make me very agitated a weird way that’s difficult for me to explain. I almost feel burdened and responsible for their states, and feel either they or I need to control it. Again, it’s a projection of my needs to be contained and not a burden that I unconsciously expect others to have that same need.

Makes sense. I suppose my exhaustion mostly comes from that aux Fe drive to connect, and neutralize the issue. Logically I'll see the futility from miles away, but the drive remains, and I sort of end up soaking in all that reactivity, trying to dissect it, regardless. If I've managed to be helpful, however, it's not tiring at all, in retrospect. Being able to help kind of reminds me that I can be useful because of my detached perspective, reinforces some sense of competence, I guess. Also reminds me that I too, am human. And that it's all right to be so (sometimes).

 

[mintleaf]

wrong thread

 

[JocktheMotie]

Also reminds me that I too, am human.

Come on. Embrace it!

 

[Lady_X]

Disdain probably wasn’t the best word (projection on my part, herp derp) but I was describing that as coming from a 5 who would think their detachment is a “superior” perspective to the “inferior” one of more emotive people.

I am also extremely, extremely drained by reactive people as well, but it seems to manifest in me as an impatient, silent rage. Emotive, reactive people I feel are so not contained it can sometimes make me very agitated a weird way that’s difficult for me to explain. I almost feel burdened and responsible for their states, and feel either they or I need to control it. Again, it’s a projection of my needs to be contained and not a burden that I unconsciously expect others to have that same need.

you know...i do that too. i often have little patience for intense negative reactions...like dramatic emotional responses...and can be quite steely in response.

 

[chickpea]

At least you heart types get to be naturally sexy. 4w3s can't open a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon without looking graceful as hell. Every single body movement a 4w3/3w4 makes looks like human perfection

that's the 3 wing though.. 4w5s are pretty much fucked.

 

[Evo]

you know...i do that too. i often have little patience for intense negative reactions...like dramatic emotional responses...and can be quite steely in response.

That sounds like it correlates to 7.

7's can get overwhelmed by negative states and therefore distance themselves...I do this too and I only have a wing of seven

I wonder if it's cause a 7 is integrating to 5 or something?

 

[Amargith]

I wonder though [MENTION=5159]Lexicon[/MENTION], [MENTION=5639]JocktheMotie[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION]

What if that other person, the one that is in that reactive state of mind reassures you that they can handle and prefer those emotions? That you aren't 'responsible' for managing it, that they can do that fine on their own?

I mean...I get the reflex to feel like you have to manage and that you have to take care of it for the other person and frankly...it is one of the hardest things I've had to learn, but I'm at the stage where I can see someone in emotional turmoil, and after having stepped in to help them stabilise, also recognize when the point has come that they need to do the rest - even if they are still in pain and struggling. It's kind of like the father who eventually has to let go of the bike his kid is trying to master, and let them... well, crash if that is what they need to do. It's terrifying, it feels powerless, but ultimately, its the only way they will learn

It won't help them to go be angry or frustrated at them, or even panic and get sucked into the turmoil yourself. They need to be focusing on regaining control, not you being pissed at them or needing help yourself. So you shout directions from the sideline, or play cheerleader instead, I find. Emotions generally don't kill you, it can just take a while to learn how to ride that wave. And yes, it can feel like you are drowning, but truthfully, that person is in no real danger.

I sometimes have other people trying to manage my emotions coz they seem too out of control for them and then seeing them freak at how they are going to manage, and I end up resenting them for having to curb what for me is just..well fun to tinker with and for them seems to be something they cannot leave alone and get sucked into and panic at. It is kind of tiresome on the other end too, tbh.
It's like a surfer riding the highest wave and enjoying himself, suddenly having someone climb onboard and go 'OMG, we're going to die! What are you doing, man????' to then frantically start steering the board for me. Wtf dude, get off my board already!

 

[Lexicon]

I wonder though [MENTION=5159]Lexicon[/MENTION], [MENTION=5639]JocktheMotie[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION]

What if that other person, the one that is in that reactive state of mind reassures you that they can handle and prefer those emotions? That you aren't 'responsible' for managing it, that they can do that fine on their own?

I mean...I get the reflex to feel like you have to manage and that you have to take care of it for the other person and frankly...it is one of the hardest things I've had to learn, but I'm at the stage where I can see someone in emotional turmoil, and after having stepped in to help them stabilise, also recognize when the point has come that they need to do the rest - even if they are still in pain and struggling. It's kind of like the father who eventually has to let go of the bike his kid is trying to master, and let them... well, crash if that is what they need to do. It's terrifying, it feels powerless, but ultimately, its the only way they will learn

It won't help them to go be angry or frustrated at them, or even panic and get sucked into the turmoil yourself. They need to be focusing on regaining control, not you being pissed at them or needing help yourself. So you shout directions from the sideline, or play cheerleader instead, I find. Emotions generally don't kill you, it can just take a while to learn how to ride that wave. And yes, it can feel like you are drowning, but truthfully, that person is in no real danger.

I sometimes have other people trying to manage my emotions coz they seem too out of control for them and then seeing them freak at how they are going to manage, and I end up resenting them for having to curb what for me is just..well fun to tinker with and for them seems to be something they cannot leave alone and get sucked into and panic at. It is kind of tiresome on the other end too, tbh.
It's like a surfer riding the highest wave and enjoying himself, suddenly having someone climb onboard and go 'OMG, we're going to die! What are you doing, man????' to then frantically start steering the board for me. Wtf dude, get off my board already!

Ah, for me- I mostly meant when people are being emotionally reactive at me, specifically, coming to me with problems they repeatedly refuse to resolve/make any effort to do so- freaking out about it like it's new information.. or confrontation of some unreasonable sort. Not just regular run-of-the-mill getting overwhelmed, but things going beyond that, into the more "emotionally unstable (/damaging)" realm, if y'know what I mean. I get drained from that, trying to neutralize it, somehow. So, I guess I should've said emotionally unstable. Typical reactivity does give me pause, but it's not stressful/draining for me to deal with/just exist near without getting deeply involved. I can kinda stay detached unless they really want me to engage, if that makes sense. (I just woke up, I probably should've waited for coffee before trying to.. make words)

 

[Thalassa]

I like how you mention the acuteness of the suffering; it's an important notion. To me even the idea of an acute emotion conjures up feelings and fears of becoming engulfed in that emotion and the immediate defense is to use the evil machinery of my mind to strip that emotion of that kind of power. It's so powerful a reflex that I don't know if I can even answer the "acuteness" question honestly.

But I'll try. At the core, I think the "suffering" is felt (and occurs) at a slower, deeper level that resembles more the lengthy process of erosion rather than the some sort of acute impact. Over time, the difficulty/fear of crossing the "distance" between the 5 and the world can wear away both the desire to reach out and one's confidence in their ability to do so. The 5 starts feeling that they cannot really share themselves effectively with the world and so they retreat. And this distance slowly increases until the 5 can feel that life, the world, their desires, a relationship; these things aren't really available to them anymore. I think all 5s feel, at times, with varying frequency based on health, incapable of and/or confined by true connection with the world and with people. It is fundamentally an erosion of will and agency, a suppression of some pretty basic needs.

The 5's detachment certainly makes them feel safe and they feel like it's the only way they can objectively analyze and prepare for experience and emotion. But saying it makes them superior? I think they can view "engulfed" beings with disdain because they watch these people experience these turbulent emotions and think that if they were properly prepared/detached/intelligent enough they would have avoided the emotion entirely, which as far as the 5 is concerned, is of utmost importance. So that's where that might come from.

I'm not sure if that answers the question, or is descriptive enough. But I can certainly expand.

Thanks for explaining why many fives irritate the bejeezus out of me. You guys think it's superior. I think its repression and possibly emotionally disturbed.

Lex is an exception and a fine example of why all 5s should be INFJs. Natural therapists all of them, im sure.

 

[gromit]

you know...i do that too. i often have little patience for intense negative reactions...like dramatic emotional responses...and can be quite steely in response.

And I as well.

But usually only when it is impacting group harmony or a task at hand.

 

[Thalassa]

As you might guess, an sx 5 is going to feel very conflicted because they’re going to desiryoue a type of abstract merging from far away but while under the experience of the merge they will begin to dread it and feel out of control. This tends to be why they’re very hot/cold with their attention and desire and can selfishly try to dictate how interaction is handled on their own schedule of what they can withstand. It is a pendulum of: idealize the connection from a distance, leap to satisfy the ideal, quickly become drained, be afraid of becoming engulfed and confined, then pulling away. Also, the instinct quality always adopts an element of the main type, so in 5s the sx connection is typically one of free exchange of “intimate” information, secrets, confidentiality, information only between the two; as to 5s, information is power over the self, power over the world. Sx 5s can feel like their inner thoughts/worlds are somewhat frightening to others so their secret hope is to share their minds secretly with a singular, trusted individual who will not shun their eccentricity. Sx 5s do have a slightly more obsessive energy with regards to their pursuits, to address your last question.

Mmm. I think the ISxJ guy I dated was an sx dom 5...he was so Odd yet closed off and regimented I was torn between Inxp and isxj. ... he insisted he was a feeler and felt like a feeler but acted like a very reserved thinker who responded in relation in a very calm detached calculated way that seems polite but actually destroys intimacy. The specific blend of eccentric and same blandness that confuses Si and Ne in a puddle.

But Jung said Si types are actually very bizarre so I went with that seeing as he flat refused to take the test and said Si dom sounded like him.

But sexual five makes absolutely perfect sense with what you just said.

I do love my fellow sx doms.

 

[skylights]

So, 5s, how does someone who loves a 5 reach out to them and make it across that distance still being able to keep their own priorities somewhat?

My dad - he's either 6/5 or 5/6, very much in the middle - once shared in the middle of a painful family breakdown that he does feel lonely and isolated sometimes, but the difficulty is that he's rarely willing to reach out to us on our terms. He's an INTP, sp/sx, and had a somewhat painful childhood. I love and respect him and want to make him happy, but at the same time, he's kind of hard to get along with. He's very obsessive and picky in some ways, and he's not very willing to participate unless things are the way he likes them.

Things like... he'll put on music (quietly) even when others are sleeping, because he LOVES music. He'll ask us what we want to listen to, but he acts rejected if we don't want to listen. He'll want to do family recreation activities, but he gets super focused on us doing everything EXACTLY right, and it becomes more stressful than fun for many of us. When we try to explain, he gets upset because he feels like you're wasting your time doing it if you don't do it right. I asked him once to pick me up from the airport on a Friday evening, since he has Fri-Sun off, but he declined, saying he needed to practice music (he couldn't take a 40 minute break?). I know it was because he was stressed about an upcoming performance, but he performs regularly, and it just sort of drove home the feeling of me always needing to conform to his priorities, instead of him being able to reach out a little.

He loves us and is generous (if generally at my mom's prodding), but it's still hard sometimes. What I've figured out so far is that meeting on completely mutual ground - sailing, dining, etc - is easiest and most successful, but we don't have a huge overlap.

Any tips?

 

[Rasofy]

Any tips?

I think you should try to state your expectations on him directly (start with small steps), otherwise he'll never figure them out. You're likely dealing with Se-tardness + Fe-tardness combined.

As for the airport thing, did you tell him in advance that you were going to need a ride?

 

[skylights]

But Jung said Si types are actually very bizarre

Yes... I think Si is such a misunderstood function. People say it is boring... repetitive... but it is so interesting and varied. Two Si doms can vary SO MUCH given their past histories and experiences, more I think than with any other function.

 

[skylights]

I think you should try to state your expectations on him directly (start with small steps), otherwise he'll never figure them out. You're likely dealing with Se-tardness + Fe-tardness combined.

I believe that. Would you mind giving me an example of stating expectations?

As for the airport thing, did you tell him in advance that you were going to need a ride?

Yeah, I had asked him on Tuesday. I should have probably known better though - music is his "sacred" thing and he always gets really worked up the day before a performance. He usually plays Sunday but in this case it was Saturday instead, and that change probably made him anxious too, which didn't occur to me until much later. Change is hard for him. He actually ended up feeling bad I guess, and offered to pick me up after all, but by then my boyfriend had already agreed to - and Dad stated later that he was glad that my boyfriend was able to, since he was so stressed.

I know he means well, it's just like between the 5 isolation and the 6 stress it doesn't leave much time for other people, but he actually really likes when people get together and have a good time, and voices wanting more of it. I feel familial obligation and enjoy his company, so I'd like to help him get that, but sometimes navigating it is quite a challenge.

 

[Rasofy]

I believe that. Would you mind giving me an example of stating expectations?

Tell him how important it is for you that he lets you do things your way, regardless of his ideas of what's right or wrong (i.e. that's not the point).

Demand equal treatment. You don't have to submit to his standards all the time - you're an adult already.

Just don't tell him he's wrong, as that will make him defensive.

Yeah, I had asked him on Tuesday. I should have probably known better though - music is his "sacred" thing and he always gets really worked up the day before a performance. He usually plays Sunday but in this case it was Saturday instead, and that change probably made him anxious too, which didn't occur to me until much later. Change is hard for him. He actually ended up feeling bad I guess, and offered to pick me up after all, but by then my boyfriend had already agreed to - and Dad stated later that he was glad that my boyfriend was able to, since he was so stressed.

Oh, I see. So it was more than just a hobby - he probably takes the performances very seriously, and likely wasn't in the mood to deal with traffic and a chatty ENFP at the same time (hah).

Besides, he would end up losing much more than 40min if you discount the time that he would need to refocus on the task.

I know he means well, it's just like between the 5 isolation and the 6 stress it doesn't leave much time for other people, but he actually really likes when people get together and have a good time, and voices wanting more of it. I feel familial obligation and enjoy his company, so I'd like to help him get that, but sometimes navigating it is quite a challenge.

 

[Lady_X]

And I as well.

But usually only when it is impacting group harmony or a task at hand.

i don't recall this ever playing out in a group so much...i think for me it's when i think they're being completely irrational.
like an emotional response that makes sense is alright but otherwise...it just irritates the hell out of me.

 

[Lady_X]

I wonder though [MENTION=5159]Lexicon[/MENTION], [MENTION=5639]JocktheMotie[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5418]Lady X[/MENTION]

What if that other person, the one that is in that reactive state of mind reassures you that they can handle and prefer those emotions? That you aren't 'responsible' for managing it, that they can do that fine on their own?

I mean...I get the reflex to feel like you have to manage and that you have to take care of it for the other person and frankly...it is one of the hardest things I've had to learn, but I'm at the stage where I can see someone in emotional turmoil, and after having stepped in to help them stabilise, also recognize when the point has come that they need to do the rest - even if they are still in pain and struggling. It's kind of like the father who eventually has to let go of the bike his kid is trying to master, and let them... well, crash if that is what they need to do. It's terrifying, it feels powerless, but ultimately, its the only way they will learn

It won't help them to go be angry or frustrated at them, or even panic and get sucked into the turmoil yourself. They need to be focusing on regaining control, not you being pissed at them or needing help yourself. So you shout directions from the sideline, or play cheerleader instead, I find. Emotions generally don't kill you, it can just take a while to learn how to ride that wave. And yes, it can feel like you are drowning, but truthfully, that person is in no real danger.

I sometimes have other people trying to manage my emotions coz they seem too out of control for them and then seeing them freak at how they are going to manage, and I end up resenting them for having to curb what for me is just..well fun to tinker with and for them seems to be something they cannot leave alone and get sucked into and panic at. It is kind of tiresome on the other end too, tbh.
It's like a surfer riding the highest wave and enjoying himself, suddenly having someone climb onboard and go 'OMG, we're going to die! What are you doing, man????' to then frantically start steering the board for me. Wtf dude, get off my board already!

yeah like lex said it's usually someone being reactive to me...and for me...if it's exaggerated...or seems unreasonable or overly sensitive...it just irritates me.

and i just have no patience...it's just like...ughhh...just stop... because it's pissing me off.

what feels like would help is if people just wouldn't do that.
but...if people could just label that shit and take responsibility for it and not attack me about it i think it would be alright...

 

[JocktheMotie]

So, 5s, how does someone who loves a 5 reach out to them and make it across that distance still being able to keep their own priorities somewhat?

My dad - he's either 6/5 or 5/6, very much in the middle - once shared in the middle of a painful family breakdown that he does feel lonely and isolated sometimes, but the difficulty is that he's rarely willing to reach out to us on our terms. He's an INTP, sp/sx, and had a somewhat painful childhood. I love and respect him and want to make him happy, but at the same time, he's kind of hard to get along with. He's very obsessive and picky in some ways, and he's not very willing to participate unless things are the way he likes them.

Things like... he'll put on music (quietly) even when others are sleeping, because he LOVES music. He'll ask us what we want to listen to, but he acts rejected if we don't want to listen. He'll want to do family recreation activities, but he gets super focused on us doing everything EXACTLY right, and it becomes more stressful than fun for many of us. When we try to explain, he gets upset because he feels like you're wasting your time doing it if you don't do it right. I asked him once to pick me up from the airport on a Friday evening, since he has Fri-Sun off, but he declined, saying he needed to practice music (he couldn't take a 40 minute break?). I know it was because he was stressed about an upcoming performance, but he performs regularly, and it just sort of drove home the feeling of me always needing to conform to his priorities, instead of him being able to reach out a little.

He loves us and is generous (if generally at my mom's prodding), but it's still hard sometimes. What I've figured out so far is that meeting on completely mutual ground - sailing, dining, etc - is easiest and most successful, but we don't have a huge overlap.

Any tips?

Yeah, this is familiar. I could go into the psychological justifications for the actions but I don't think that's what you're looking for. Tips? No idea. Haven't worked it out myself.

I know with the airport thing...I used to have (and probably still would have if put into the situation again) tremendous anxiety when it came to having to be "on" in public and be social. When I waited tables as a summer thing in college, I'd spend all day, hours before my shift, just sort of hiding out alone and watching the clock tick by 15 minutes at a time. If someone had asked me to do something that day, I'd say no way, I can't spare the time and make something up, because the idea of losing even a single minute of prep time for the "performance" would be completely terrifying. But when I'd finally get to work and be "on" I'd be completely fine. One would never know I had stayed in my room all day dreading work, I'd be perfectly friendly and entirely competent and at the end of my shift think "well that wasn't so bad" until the next shift when it started all over again. I don't know if this is partly due to 5-ness or because I'm just a lunatic though, so. YMMV.

You say he's been doing it regularly but if he has a similar habit, I don't know what to tell you. But that might be something that's happening. If he hasn't figured it out by now he might not. Unless you wanna sneak some xanax into his coffee.

You might try to simply explain your issues but maybe avoid how his behavior makes you feel, instead emphasizing the inherent unfairness of his expectation. When 5s figure out they're hurting others because of their behavior they'll think retreating and withholding is best for everybody (I can't hurt you if I'm not part of your life). He's likely to retreat if the problem is presented as unfairness or an imbalance, like a scale is not weighted properly. Also mention you understand his need for time and space and mention you understand why he needs it; when anybody feels understood I think it's easier for them to make efforts because that effort is recognized.