[NF] Communicating between Fe and Fi

[heart]

Also, I would only defend another's flawed judgment if they were my ally. I certainly wouldn't do it for an enemy. This would be due to realizing that people's perception of them reflects on me, or seeing the value of keeping them as allies even if I disagree with them in that instance.

This is even more frightening to me. Flawed judgement is flawed judgement. It is no good for anyone. It has to be exposed and faced. It is a poison.

 

[Athenian200]

This is even more frightening to me. Flawed judgement is flawed judgement. It is no good for anyone. It has to be exposed and faced. It is a poison.

You don't even know what my definition of "flawed" is. You can't say that so blanketly. I already said that I wouldn't do anything that would hurt myself or others I'm allied with in the long run if I were aware that it would, didn't I? My definition of flawed would be something based on incorrect processing of information, pointless, or different from what I think would work well in the situation.

What is your definition of flawed? I have a hunch that it's quite different.

 

[heart]

You don't even know what my definition of "flawed" is. You can't say that so blanketly. I already said that I wouldn't do anything that would hurt myself or others I'm allied with in the long run if I were aware that it would, didn't I? My definition of flawed would be something based on incorrect information, pointless, or different from what I think would work well in the situation.

What is your definition of flawed? I have a hunch that it's quite different.

I'll be willing to support the dictionary definition of flawed.

If you felt/thought that someone you knew was using flawed judgement to make their decisions and you supported that, yes, I stand by my answer, I would be deeply disturbed at that. That's how insanity gets going in this world and how things get so messed up and how people end up getting hurt and injured even when people had good intentions.

 

[Athenian200]

I'll be willing to support the dictionary definition of flawed.

If you felt/thought that someone you knew was using flawed judgement to make their decisions and you supported that, yes, I stand by my answer, I would be deeply disturbed at that. That's how insanity gets going in this world and how things get so messed up and how people end up getting hurt and injured even when people had good intentions.

That definition is subjective, and doesn't really tell me anything. Imperfection is relative to one's idea of perfection.

Perhaps you need an example... suppose you see your friend tell a pregnant woman that she's thin when she asks about her weight, when in reality she isn't. Clearly his judgment is flawed, but it doesn't harm anyone. It maybe irritatingly inconsistent with reality, but it can be beared under the circumstances.

Now, if I had a friend who were a government official, and he raised taxes on everyone claiming there were a threat that didn't exist, and pocketed all the money instead of doing what he said he would with it, and I saw all the people mistreated and poor because of his policies, I would consider it detrimental to the society in question, and have to decide whether my loyalty was to my friend, or to that society. I'd probably choose the latter.

Does that help?

 

[proteanmix]

Maybe I should clarify my post.

Heart, I did not mean to assume anything about your experiences with ENFJs or ESFJs. If the people you were having these problems with were ENFJs, I was attempting to give you my reason for why I would behave in such manner a manner if it was me. I was also attempting (as LLNF and athenian have noticed) to get more detail about the situation so I could give a decent response and you did respond which clarified as far as I was concerned which is why I didn't publicly respond.

As for if the people you dealt with were ESFJs or ENFJs, I wasn't quite sure myself if you were referring to your interactions with ESFJs or ENFJs in the ENFJ profile thread.

Sometimes I think the distance between Fe and Fi is almost as great as Fe and Ti. I know that I have misinterpreted a few of the IFPs I know behavior as being aloof and private, just as you have interpreted EFJ behavior as intrusive and overbearing. I also know that some forum members tend to only pick up on dom Fe and think they're dealing with an ESFJ when they're not. I'm sensitive to this because I do feel like oftentimes on the forum, EFJs (particularly ESFJs) are portrayed as mother hens always telling people what's best for them regardless of what the person's desires and wishes are. I know that my experiences with ESFJs greatly differs from those of most forum members, which is why I contained my original response to what is said on the forum, not what is reflected in my real life. I know some real nasty ESFJs and I know ESFJs that are some of the sweetest human beings I've ever encountered (and I work with tons of them). I'm not taking the few handful of terrible ESFJs I work with and extrapolating that to the whole type. I'm not trying to imply that you're doing that either, which is why I sought clarification. I don't know any ENFJs for comparison.

You said that you weren't able to discuss these things at any great length outside of the forum so maybe we can talk about them now to educate each in each other's ways.

I find this to be a good source for basic communication when dealing with an ENFJ, especially the bolded part:

Some things to watch for when communicating with ENFJs include being cold, impersonal, or indifferent to the people involved. ENFJs disapprove of those who are demanding, controlling, bossy, or who say things like, "I'm your supervisor so you have to do what I say." Threats will rarely work with ENFJs, and are likely to cause great anxiety and unrest. People who focus only on the numbers and not the people in an issue will not enjoy working with ENFJs. Likewise, those who focus only on the present, immediate issues, without considering the future will alienate many ENFJs. People who forget their manners or common courtesies and social norms will generally aggravate ENFJs. Finally, ENFJs want to know about the people they work with, so if you keep everything about yourself private, many ENFJs will find it difficult to relate to you. This in turn will make it harder for both of you to communicate effectively.

If the people you've had these experiences with are in fact ENFJs, I think this is a key reason why you've had the difficulties. You said that you weren't rude or anything to them and that's fine. Just so I can understand when you say you have difficulties in communicating with ENFJs, would you say that it's most of the time or some of the time? I'd like to know if it's been a repeated pattern throughout your life or isolated incidences so I can know how to respond.

ETA: Athenian, I thank you for your help in trying to clarify, but I think you're making this pedantic. Why don't we migrate the conversation to communication between Fe and Fi?

 

[Haphazard]

I'm just going to go ahead and say that Fe is frightening to me.

Fe types... seem like they're more concerned with the external appearance of happiness and mistake that for internal happiness. I may in fact be quite happy, it's just that I don't normally show it. Being around Fe types force me to put on a mask that's not me -- and it's about the most exhausting thing in the world.

Usually because of this, they find me cold, socially inept, and inconsiderate. Which maybe I am, but I'm not going to walk around in a happy mask all day just to please them.

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm just going to go ahead and say that Fe is frightening to me.

Fe types... seem like they're more concerned with the external appearance of happiness and mistake that for internal happiness. I may in fact be quite happy, it's just that I don't normally show it. Being around Fe types force me to put on a mask that's not me -- and it's about the most exhausting thing in the world.

Usually because of this, they find me cold, socially inept, and inconsiderate. Which maybe I am, but I'm not going to walk around in a happy mask all day just to please them.

I remember feeling that way in my teens and 20's; and yes, it could be an exhausting mask, although at the time I couldn't really articulate all of that. I was really frightened of it, and I remember that the people who most bothered me were SFJ types.

Later, as I allowed myself to feel and interact with things in a non-intellectualized way, I realized that I did have feelings and commitments about/to others. I often could not expression them spontaneously, they still had to be offered in a more routine or defined fashion, but I had them... and I enjoyed letting people I cared about know that.

T can be cold and impersonal but doesn't necessarily have to be. And Fe can be controlling/domineering, an imposition on an individual, but doesn't have to be either. When effective, it's more simply "communication" and almost a gift that people give to others, so that they know they're accepted, and to help those unsure of how to respond a framework in which to place their affections and commitments.

I think it's very logical, ironically, to have a culturally standardized system by which people can know they are accepted and can fit in, and both offer and accept social support. It's just part of being a human being, to desire that sort of security at some level. it is also about knowing what sort of response is appropriate when; sometimes it's necessary to be scathingly T, sometimes it's necessary to be detached T, and sometimes it's necessary to give some F-style affirmation or (paradoxically) put some F-style distance there to protect boundaries.

I find the "smiling" conversation earlier interesting.

I realize my bias is that I expect people to smile. (Funny for an introvert, isn't it?) Because that's what I do, even if I am not particularly happy at the moment. If I see someone in the hall, I will smile and say "Hi," with my mouth and my eyes.

That's because the smile is not meant to reflect my internal feelings. It's instead a signal to the other person that they are accepted within my social circle and that I'm open to them as a person. I'm setting the stage for how we relate to each other.

After they go by, if I'm sad or internally angst-ridden, the smile goes away. But it wasn't fake. It was just a tool that I used to signal very sincere commitments.

When people interact with me without smiling to me or giving me signs like that, I get agitated and feel like they don't like me. I think I even probably categorize them as closed off, impersonal, stand-offish, perhaps even temperamental or cranky. Over time, I've learned to just not react to that. But it does throw me for a loop, if I don't get the "signals."

So it is interesting to hear that some of you are fine with internalizing everything and not reading too much into someone who doesn't smile in the course of your communication with them.

It also helps when I've talked to some of you and don't find Fe-style cues in your PMs that would reaffirm my relationship with you, because generally I read that as "not interested / go away" ... but then you would later insinuate that we were good friends or you enjoyed the conversation. *double take* Just is such a big eye opener.

 

[proteanmix]

I'm just going to go ahead and say that Fe is frightening to me.

Fe types... seem like they're more concerned with the external appearance of happiness and mistake that for internal happiness. I may in fact be quite happy, it's just that I don't normally show it. Being around Fe types force me to put on a mask that's not me -- and it's about the most exhausting thing in the world.

Usually because of this, they find me cold, socially inept, and inconsiderate. Which maybe I am, but I'm not going to walk around in a happy mask all day just to please them.

For people who feel this way, are you sure it's not some pressure you're putting on yourself because you think this is the way the FJ would want you to respond? Most FJs that I know don't force everyone to walk around like grinning idiots, pretending everything is OK when it's not. They don't even do that themselves. Have you ever tried to REALLY talk to the FJ or are you skimming by on appearances yourself?

Example: I get on the elevator and someone says "how are you?" If I feel like being honest (honest being other than the typical "i'm fine") I'll say something like "do you really want to know?" This typically gets a laugh from the other person and they say I something similar. I've never been an advocate of fronting with people about how you really feel. I do advocate being mindful of your delivery. A few kind words turns away wrath.

I honestly want to know how many FJs you encounter actually act like this. Is it a majority of FJs or a handful? Are you taking the few bad apples that you have to deal with and making most FJs out this way?

And as for the rude and inconsiderate behavior, tell me what your definition of polite, rude, and inconsiderate is. I'd like us to be working from the same set of definitions before we move any further.

 

[Haphazard]

For people who feel this way, are you sure it's not some pressure you're putting on yourself because you think this is the way the FJ would want you to respond? Most FJs that I know don't force everyone to walk around like grinning idiots, pretending everything is OK when it's not. They don't even do that themselves. Have you ever tried to REALLY talk to the FJ or are you skimming by on appearances yourself?

Example: I get on the elevator and someone says "how are you?" If I feel like being honest (honest being other than the typical "i'm fine") I'll say something like "do you really want to know?" This typically gets a laugh from the other person and they say I something similar. I've never been an advocate of fronting with people about how you really feel. I do advocate being mindful of your delivery. A few kind words turns away wrath.

I honestly want to know how many FJs you encounter actually act like this. Is it a majority of FJs or a handful? Are you taking the few bad apples that you have to deal with and making most FJs out this way?

And as for the rude and inconsiderate behavior, tell me what your definition of polite, rude, and inconsiderate is. I'd like us to be working from the same set of definitions before we move any further.

FJs... most of this comes from my hatred of being questioned. the way FJs typically 'get to know you' is by asking questions, and I hate answering. They want to know everything -- how are you, what you're doing right now, what you're doing this weekend, how the family's doing, what you're eating for dinner tonight, your last cholesterol levels -- EVERYTHING. The general contempt I have of people asking me personal questions tends to rub them the wrong way. I'm going to give them stock answers because I don't want to answer them. And when I sound upset with the delivery, they continually ask me what's wrong. I could scream "STOP FUCKING INTERROGATING ME, THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG" but dominant Ni tells me that that won't go over too well.

It feels like I'm being pinned down in a high school science class to be dissected. They're just trying to 'care,' but they have no idea how threatening that verbal scalpel is. If somebody starts talking about their own personal life, I'll usually start asking questions because I'll get interested in the story (and that's probably what they want, anyway), but if they don't start, I'm not going to probe. In fact, when people assume that because they've spilled their guts that now I'm going to do the same, I often turn into the bad cop, taking the attitude of, "I'M the one asking the questions here!"

I won't share a damn thing beyond the intellectual and they don't want that, they want the personal. I can't be pleasant. My discussion never turns to what I'm thinking or feeling but rather turns outwards, to things I've heard or things I've done, everything laced with humorous speculation, impressions, and lots of gesturing. I can be articulate and I can be entertaining, but I can't be personal.

My mother is ISFJ. I can talk to her in a conversation but all the little 'considerate' questions still grind against me like a sandblaster. If I can actually get into a conversation, they can be wonderful, but all the preliminary, all the probing, is just downright painful.

 

[Totenkindly]

Wow.

Why is the personal so threatening?

I get turned off sometimes if I get peppered by lots of requests from FJs for the concrete minutia. ("Where did you go after work? What did you have for lunch? Who did you go with?") Those things to me quickly culminate into a pointless discussion, if that's where the conversation stays, and it bores me to tears and can even feel like an interrogation if it's someone related to me who seems to be hinting I did something wrong.

I'd just like to understand better why the personal is to be so avoided. (which, of course, as per this conversation, you might or might not want to answer. )

 

[Domino]

Jennifer and I used to be at (unintentional) loggerheads because of the misunderstanding (or just outright BAD experiences) with Fe. I'm so pleased we got that cleared away because now I have a great funny friend.

Fe vs. Fi. I have to say that I might not understand Fi at all if not for being raised with an ENFP. I might not fully understand Fe either. It seemed to be nothing but a blowtorch burning under my skin that I couldn't shut off or control. My sister's reactions to things sometimes seemed puzzling to me, and my reactions seemed like "THIS!!!" to her.

Fi's cooler nature can be enigmatic at times. Fe can be pyroclastic. Neither should be feared or avoided. My best friends are ALL Fi - INTJ, ENTJ, and ESFP. They know better than to be afraid of me, know better than to dismiss me by telling me to cork it. I know better than to demand or tax their Fi or accuse them of being heartless. Fi is very settling. Fe is tectonic. The two assist. I appreciate my INTJ best friend. Kooky guy. (Speaking of which, he just pulled up in the drive way. lol Gotta go!)

I've only dated other Fe's for some reason. We sweat it out the same way, I guess.

 

[Athenian200]

FJs... most of this comes from my hatred of being questioned. the way FJs typically 'get to know you' is by asking questions, and I hate answering. They want to know everything -- how are you, what you're doing right now, what you're doing this weekend, how the family's doing, what you're eating for dinner tonight, your last cholesterol levels -- EVERYTHING. The general contempt I have of people asking me personal questions tends to rub them the wrong way. I'm going to give them stock answers because I don't want to answer them. And when I sound upset with the delivery, they continually ask me what's wrong. I could scream "STOP FUCKING INTERROGATING ME, THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG" but dominant Ni tells me that that won't go over too well.

It feels like I'm being pinned down in a high school science class to be dissected. They're just trying to 'care,' but they have no idea how threatening that verbal scalpel is. If somebody starts talking about their own personal life, I'll usually start asking questions because I'll get interested in the story (and that's probably what they want, anyway), but if they don't start, I'm not going to probe. In fact, when people assume that because they've spilled their guts that now I'm going to do the same, I often turn into the bad cop, taking the attitude of, "I'M the one asking the questions here!"

I won't share a damn thing beyond the intellectual and they don't want that, they want the personal. I can't be pleasant. My discussion never turns to what I'm thinking or feeling but rather turns outwards, to things I've heard or things I've done, everything laced with humorous speculation, impressions, and lots of gesturing. I can be articulate and I can be entertaining, but I can't be personal.

My mother is ISFJ. I can talk to her in a conversation but all the little 'considerate' questions still grind against me like a sandblaster. If I can actually get into a conversation, they can be wonderful, but all the preliminary, all the probing, is just downright painful.

I don't really see those questions as too personal. There are questions I see as too personal, but when I encounter one of those, I just say "Oh, sorry, I'm not comfortable discussing that." I'm sure that's all you have to do. Perhaps you could even jokingly say something like "I plead the fifth."


One thing I'd like to point out: if I don't seem very polite here, it's probably because sitting in front of a computer puts me into a frame of mind I typically use for editing configuration files, rather than talking to people. Also, perhaps because I tend to rely on inflection, hand gestures, and eye movements more than faces, and those can't be communicated quite as well. The fact that I originally came here for debate and complex discussions probably contributes as well.

I do find it slightly irritating when some people think that they should only have to tolerate online what they would tolerate in real life, because it's a different environment where things can't be expressed in quite the same way.

 

[Metis]

(...) if I reacted that way to someone, it would mean I thought very little of them, didn't value them, and didn't see them as any kind of threat to my position if they were to challenge me (which might entice them to prove otherwise).

If they need to "prove otherwise," they're just proving they were insincere with the friendliness, as might have been suspected. Or no? Would you say this is a case of sincere feelings flaking out? Just kidding. Changing? Can you go into this more?

People often seem to be trying to get back at me for who knows what. I always just figure they're using contrived grievances to justify manipulation.

 

[proteanmix]

People often seem to be trying to get back at me for who knows what. I always just figure they're using contrived grievances to justify manipulation.

Finally after 52 posts an accusation of manipulation!

What took yall so long? :rolli:

 

[Totenkindly]

Jennifer and I used to be at (unintentional) loggerheads because of the misunderstanding (or just outright BAD experiences) with Fe. I'm so pleased we got that cleared away because now I have a great funny friend.

Who are you calling funny?!

Oh. Yeah.

Fe vs. Fi. I have to say that I might not understand Fi at all if not for being raised with an ENFP. I might not fully understand Fe either. It seemed to be nothing but a blowtorch burning under my skin that I couldn't shut off or control. My sister's reactions to things sometimes seemed puzzling to me, and my reactions seemed like "THIS!!!" to her.

Fi's cooler nature can be enigmatic at times. Fe can be pyroclastic. Neither should be feared or avoided.

What is very ironic to me is that I assign the adjectives completely the opposite. I find Fi to be warm and Fe to be cool.

Fi people, to me, express warmth and connection without having to say or give me any specific sign. There is an "aura" around them that I automatically perceive but cannot articulate, that makes me feel engaged and embraced. So they feel "warm." Put another way, it's like inner connecting to inner.

Fe people, to me, are cordial and more explicit both in their emotions and in the signs accompanying them. The rules can be more articulated and are less amorphous, which to me makes it feel less personal and thus "cooler." To me, it is like "outer" connecting with "outer."

Does that make sense?

I think I am analyzing/perceiving the personal/impersonal [sorry, bad description but I'm having trouble finding the right one] aspects of the feelings, whereas you are picking up on how introverted/extroverted the feelings are. (So more extroverted feelings = hotter to you, while more personal/less "rules bound" and internalized = hotter to me.)

Finally after 52 posts an accusation of manipulation!
What took yall so long? :rolli:

probably was trying to manipulate you into admitting it up front?

 

[Metis]

Finally after 52 posts an accusation of manipulation!

What took yall so long? :rolli:

I didn't accuse you and wasn't even pinpointing Fe. I'm interested in what he said and hope he has more insights on it.

 

[Haphazard]

Wow.

Why is the personal so threatening?

I get turned off sometimes if I get peppered by lots of requests from FJs for the concrete minutia. ("Where did you go after work? What did you have for lunch? Who did you go with?") Those things to me quickly culminate into a pointless discussion, if that's where the conversation stays, and it bores me to tears and can even feel like an interrogation if it's someone related to me who seems to be hinting I did something wrong.

I'd just like to understand better why the personal is to be so avoided. (which, of course, as per this conversation, you might or might not want to answer. )

'Wow' indeed.

I really don't know. In the time when the server of MBTIc was being finicky, I thought of a million possible answers, and I can't think of one that's true for me.

Here are a few I came up with, though, for your entertainment:

1)I am overly protective of myself, as in anything I say can and will be used against me in the court of law -- or, rather, as lunchroom gossip

2)I don't normally think about the sort of thing they ask about, so these questions are actually very, very difficult

3)When I actually start spilling 'secrets', the stuff that these Fe types want to know, I don't know if it's my inflection or my contempt that shows it, but they immediately think that I've been abused or something (this happens a lot)

4)I really don't care about the things they're asking me about, so the questions are just a constant nuisance

5)Every time I'm asked a question, I lose my current train of thought, which is very frustrating because I'll never find it again, and these people are unthinkingly yanking me off of them

6)There's the underlying knowledge that if I answer one question, more are on the way, and I'll be wasting time on explaining myself completely rather than doing what I was going to do

7)There's the unshakeable feeling that they're just questioning to be polite, and that this will again turn into a 'polite' waste of time (see 6)

8)I'm just a vessel for my ideas and aspirations and there's really no 'me' there, so asking me about 'me' is painful and causes an immense amoutn of existentialist angst because it's asking about something I don't have but everyone apparently should

9)They won't believe me if I tell them the truth

10)They won't understand if I tell them the truth, and either they'll write me off as weird or continue questioning me in an attempt to understand (see 6)

11)If I say anything bad I'll immediately get sympathy, which is something I don't want and seems insincere (see 3)

12)It can easily be explained by 'devilish' Fe according to the Beebe model

13)Once I give them something about me, they'll keep a tab on it, which will beget more questions, only more spread apart (see 6)

14)I'm usually trying to figure out something about what they're talking about, and if I tell them about that thing before it's fully figured out, it'll just worry them (see 3)

15) I know if I say anything, I'm just going to have to repeat myself, and I HATE repeating myself so much that I'd avoid it at the cost of seeming like a heartless bastard with no soul

16)I truly am a heartless bastard with no soul and can't stand these people and would prefer to watch them rot in hell.

I hope that's enough of an explanation for you, even though I don't even know which one is true, or which ones, even. Umm. Have fun sorting it out? Or we can just go with that it's an absolutely irrational hate and discomfort when being cornered with these types of questions. I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in having 'strange' preferences...

 

[proteanmix]

FJs... most of this comes from my hatred of being questioned. the way FJs typically 'get to know you' is by asking questions, and I hate answering. They want to know everything -- how are you, what you're doing right now, what you're doing this weekend, how the family's doing, what you're eating for dinner tonight, your last cholesterol levels -- EVERYTHING.

Ahhh, so it's not that the FJs you know are immature, it's just that you're not particularly responsive to their way communicating. I was under the impression that you (and some others) were being attacked by swarms of FJs. I suppose it can feel that way sometimes. For INTJs, Fe occupies the deceitful, trickster position in their cognitive processes. A

I think the primary thing to remember is that most of the time, FJs aren't trying to back you into a corner for you to claw your way to freedom. I have asked people those types of questions before and honestly I really don't have any intention of stopping. What I do do is see how receptive they are to those types of questions and if they're not I migrate the conversation back somewhere else. Which is why I tend to keep my conversation to general interest topics (like celebrities, TV, film, sports, etc.) because I realize that some people get antsy under that kind of relating. But it perplexes me when I read on the forum that people don't get enough "deep" conversation from people. Deep for you may be delving into impersonal intellectual topics, while deep for others may be personal and intimate topics. I admit, I'm much more interested in learning about another person than I am talking about the latest gadget or something.

Practical advice: Tell the FJ(s) in question that while you appreciate their interest in you and your life, you'd prefer to talk about (insert whatever topic here). How this plays out in the real world is:

FJ: So what did you do this weekend?
You: Oh, nothing much.
FJ: Did you go anywhere?
You: No, I stayed at home.
FJ: What were you doing?

This is your opportunity to take the heat of yourself and deflect it elsewhere. You can say something like, "Oh I watched this interesting show on Discovery Health and how Gore-tex from coats was used in heart transplants" (or something, I don't know). You can either bore them with your conversation about goretex and hearts and if they can keep up, great and if they can't you'll send them flying in the opposite direction.

The key point is that you can control the conversation too and not be left defenseless under what you feel is a barrage of questions. You can steer the conversation into more impersonal topics, while still satisfying the basic FJ need to connect without seeming rude. They got what they feel is a satisfying conversation about you (hmm, they like gore-tex coats!) and you didn't necessarily have to divulge your social security number. I do it all the time with other FJs and no harm no foul!

If it helps you have some topics tucked away in your back pocket with a few key phrases.

I'm just telling you this so you won't have to feel like you're being attacked by FJs. Personally, I don't think anything about answering such questions from other people FJs or any other type. I like doing that type of conversation because it leads to other types of substantial conversation. I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable jumping into heated political or scientific debate without feeling around first to see if the people would tear out my jugular because my argument was formulated in just so manner and also simply I don't know much about those kinds of things. The FJs may be putting out their antennae to you to see how you'd react to meatier subjects. I don't know, I just know that's what I do. If someone acts upset over being asked if they watched American Idol, I'd assume they'd get even more upset about other issues (which may be wrong, but hey!)

Fe at it's core is about connecting with other people and connecting people to each other. I really don't understand how people expect others to even move past Hello without knowing basic things about the other person.

 

[Haphazard]

Ahhh, so it's not that the FJs you know are immature, it's just that you're not particularly responsive to their way communicating. I was under the impression that you (and some others) were being attacked by swarms of FJs. I suppose it can feel that way sometimes. For INTJs, Fe occupies the deceitful, trickster position in their cognitive processes. A

I think the primary thing to remember is that most of the time, FJs aren't trying to back you into a corner for you to claw your way to freedom. I have asked people those types of questions before and honestly I really don't have any intention of stopping. What I do do is see how receptive they are to those types of questions and if they're not I migrate the conversation back somewhere else. Which is why I tend to keep my conversation to general interest topics (like celebrities, TV, film, sports, etc.) because I realize that some people get antsy under that kind of relating. But it perplexes me when I read on the forum that people don't get enough "deep" conversation from people. Deep for you may be delving into impersonal intellectual topics, while deep for others may be personal and intimate topics. I admit, I'm much more interested in learning about another person than I am talking about the latest gadget or something.

Practical advice: Tell the FJ(s) in question that while you appreciate their interest in you and your life, you'd prefer to talk about (insert whatever topic here). How this plays out in the real world is:

FJ: So what did you do this weekend?
You: Oh, nothing much.
FJ: Did you go anywhere?
You: No, I stayed at home.
FJ: What were you doing?

This is your opportunity to take the heat of yourself and deflect it elsewhere. You can say something like, "Oh I watched this interesting show on Discovery Health and how Gore-tex from coats was used in heart transplants" (or something, I don't know). You can either bore them with your conversation about goretex and hearts and if they can keep up, great and if they can't you'll send them flying in the opposite direction.

The key point is that you can control the conversation too and not be left defenseless under what you feel is a barrage of questions. You can steer the conversation into more impersonal topics, while still satisfying the basic FJ need to connect without seeming rude. They got what they feel is a satisfying conversation about you (hmm, they like gore-tex coats!) and you didn't necessarily have to divulge your social security number. I do it all the time with other FJs and no harm no foul!

If it helps you have some topics tucked away in your back pocket with a few key phrases.

I'm just telling you this so you won't have to feel like you're being attacked by FJs. Personally, I don't think anything about answering such questions from other people FJs or any other type. I like doing that type of conversation because it leads to other types of substantial conversation. I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable jumping into heated political or scientific debate without feeling around first to see if the people would tear out my jugular because my argument was formulated in just so manner and also simply I don't know much about those kinds of things. The FJs may be putting out their antennae to you to see how you'd react to meatier subjects. I don't know, I just know that's what I do. If someone acts upset over being asked if they watched American Idol, I'd assume they'd get even more upset about other issues (which may be wrong, but hey!)

Fe at it's core is about connecting with other people and connecting people to each other. I really don't understand how people expect others to even move past Hello without knowing basic things about the other person.

Yes, it's not that these people are immature, it's that I have an unreasonable aversion to normal, healthy small talk. It's difficult going through life like that. Without even their knowledge, they're starting out with the most difficult topics for me, but they start there because that's what works with everyone else.

I'm usually less concerned with pleasant conversation than I am with 'doing' -- which is why my most common response to this sort of thing when I honestly can't deal with it at the moment is "I'm BUSY! Stop bugging me!" because it's at least halfway true. Just being 'pleasant' is a hefty request. Usually what I did has no common interest whatsoever with anybody in the general populace (MBTI, for example) and even by that time that you've said 'start talking about the gore-tex coats', I've already completely shut down from any conversation.

Even this conversation right now is like a wrench in my gut...

The simple fact is, even in this model of a conversation, you're still asking me to give, give, give, which is something I'm completely not willing to do in the sort of mild conversation that FJs are likely to start.

 

[heart]

That definition is subjective, and doesn't really tell me anything. Imperfection is relative to one's idea of perfection.

Perhaps you need an example... suppose you see your friend tell a pregnant woman that she's thin when she asks about her weight, when in reality she isn't. Clearly his judgment is flawed, but it doesn't harm anyone. It maybe irritatingly inconsistent with reality, but it can be beared under the circumstances.

Now, if I had a friend who were a government official, and he raised taxes on everyone claiming there were a threat that didn't exist, and pocketed all the money instead of doing what he said he would with it, and I saw all the people mistreated and poor because of his policies, I would consider it detrimental to the society in question, and have to decide whether my loyalty was to my friend, or to that society. I'd probably choose the latter.

Does that help?

You find the dictionary definition subjective?

Anyway, a corrupted seed planted today, because one didn't want to create waves, will grow a corrupted tree and there is no telling what kind of fruit it will grow when mature. This is why it is dangerous to let corrupted judgement slide, it is not a loving thing to do when one looks at it long term.