Fi users and not apologizing

[stalemate]

I'm laughing so hard I'm crying right now

sorry that's mean i'm not laughing that hard

Apologize.

 

[prplchknz]

Apologize.

I did

 

[Cellmold]

Yeah.. DJ made sense about people having various kinds of tests. And I mean, it's true.. I just couldn't fathom treating someone poorly just to see if they'd take it. I mean, at best, sure, it's a quick way to see if the guy is a doormat.. but couldn't observation serve the same purpose? At worst.. if the guy is a doormat.. he's got self value issues you're actively preying upon for your own benefit, & leaving him worse off than he was before. Overall it just seems like a really.. disgusting way to figure someone out. But yeah, I don't wanna derail the thread too much with this, so I'll leave it at that.

Admittedly though, people don't really want doormats do they? It's nice to sympathise, but that sympathy is usually empty. Often it can do more harm than good.

 

[skylights]

Yes I've noticed this. I think I do expect a form of submission. The way I view things, if they're willing to act submissive, it proves to me that they're willing to do what it takes to make things work between us. If they aren't, they aren't someone I wish to continue trying to connect with. More or less a test. This could be an E8 thing. When someone shows me they have the courage to submit, I'll actually pick them back up and dust them off and tell them everything is cool and act submissive in return, and thus respect them even more than I used to. But I have no tolerance for inflated egos.

Yeah, that makes sense. It does seem like a sort of e8 power thing, though I've felt that way too. It's definitely a power thing, anyway. The only issue is, what if you're expecting an apology for something that wasn't perceived by the other person as a transgression? Like, if she wasn't intending to be a bitch - if she was just flirting - and you doorslammed her for a month and are now expecting an apology - that wouldn't really make any sense from her POV. She'd already have submitted herself by flirting, and you'd have thrown up a wall in response.

 

[Azure Flame]

The bolded has definitely happened to me and created conflict with Fe users before. They have a much better understanding of which actions are wrong in an interpersonal sense and why. I'm not always very good at seeing interpersonal exchange - for example, understanding that I was the major "cause" of a bad situation, or where an external tipping point may have occurred.

I think Fe users also are more likely to feel like apologizing is a necessary social "form" that must be engaged - like part of a necessary process that can't be moved through before subsequent mending occurs, while Fi users aren't necessarily as invested in hearing that, but will expect the other person to lay out their feelings as a gesture of genuine, from-the-heartness.

Check out my previous response. Its not so much that I, Fe user, need someone to apologize because "that's what people do when they mess up," so much as it is an objective and visible expression of remorse. This tells me that the person wants to make amends instead of maintain the position of being right. This is also by no means a one sided thing. I feel like I am one of the few people on this earth who apologizes for what he does wrong, and there is nothing in my ego that says I need to be right in the context of a relationship with another person.

Am I wrong to think its immature for two people to fight over who is right instead of working to find the true problem and fix it?

 

[skylights]

Admittedly though, people don't really want doormats do they? It's nice to sympathise, but that sympathy is usually empty. Often it can do more harm than good.

That's interesting. Why do you think sympathy is usually empty? I think it's usually well-intended, even if it's not always completely understood.

 

[skylights]

Check out my previous response. Its not so much that I, Fe user, need someone to apologize because "that's what people do when they mess up," so much as it is an objective and visible expression of remorse. This tells me that the person wants to make amends instead of maintain the position of being right. This is also by no means a one sided thing. I feel like I am one of the few people on this earth who apologizes for what he does wrong, and there is nothing in my ego that says I need to be right in the context of a relationship with another person.

Am I wrong to think its immature for two people to fight over who is right instead of working to find the true problem and fix it?

Oh, no, I get that. You want the demonstration of remorse to continue on. It's a meaningful gesture that lays the ground for further mending, not an empty form. I understand.

I'm just still not convinced that she actually realized that she transgressed against you, and your whole desire for an apology pivots on that fact. If she doesn't understand that (why) her actions were harmful to you, she's not going to apologize for them. Maybe she recognizes that you were angry but she probably doesn't understand why it was hurtful. Clearly she's trying to make some sort of reparation, though.

In other words... you're seeing how her action made you feel hurt, so naturally you see her as having wronged you, and apology is the next step if she wants to move on into a positive relationship with you, which she's seeming to express. Except, if she didn't intend explicit harm from the beginning, then she might not see the situation as being worth apology, as she might not at all understand how or why you were hurt by it, nor that or why you need an apology.

She may also be nervous about reopening that can of worms, and hesitant to engage with you following the month-long communication block.

 

[Azure Flame]

Yeah, that makes sense. It does seem like a sort of e8 power thing, though I've felt that way too. It's definitely a power thing, anyway. The only issue is, what if you're expecting an apology for something that wasn't perceived by the other person as a transgression? Like, if she wasn't intending to be a bitch - if she was just flirting - and you doorslammed her for a month and are now expecting an apology - that wouldn't really make any sense from her POV. She'd already have submitted herself by flirting, and you'd have thrown up a wall in response.

True. I think my standpoint from the beginning, however, was that I have plenty of friends who would never hurt me in this way. So why should I spend any effort in trying to make things right with her when I can find someone else? I'm not going to try to change someone who I percieve as a princess. It doesn't even matter if she understands why I don't talk to her anymore. In this situation, my feelings have priority over the feelings of others.

 

[Cellmold]

That's interesting. Why do you think sympathy is usually empty? I think it's usually well-intended, even if it's not always completely understood.

Because people do it all the time, they throw out sympathy to an individual, but it's off-hand it's in the moment. The person who throws out that sympathy probably isn't looking to make a friend, they are just reacting in a manner they believe is the correct or more courteous, they aren't going to invest any time or deeper thought into the matter.

It's the same way in which some people give soiled clothes to charity shops then feel good about themselves. What exactly did they give up there? They certainly couldn't give a fuck about the people they are helping, they just want their 5 minutes of feel good glow.

Maybe some people are sincerely intentioned, but they are the minority and I find they fade into the background compared with the vast majority.

This is probably sounding like a disgusting level of judgement and I suppose it is. It's just I get tired of seeing empty platitudes with little action. If someone truly cares THEY ACT.

I really think empty sympathy is dangerous. It could be asked who am I to judge what is empty sympathy, well I would say it shows in the action, not the intent.

Anyone can claim to intend something, very few prove that they do. And while it is true that it isn't always the giver of sympathies fault that the recipient can latch onto them more than they intended, they could have at least considered that outcome and the level of commitment they were willing to divulge before they involved themselves in someone else's life.

 

[Azure Flame]

Most selflessness is ultimately another form of selfishness. For example, enneagram 2's need to help others to feel good about themselves. E3's need to help others to not feel worthless, etc. The word "selfless" is more or less an illusion painted as a good thing because most would rather view "love" as something more than chemical.

 

[skylights]

True. I think my standpoint from the beginning, however, was that I have plenty of friends who would never hurt me in this way. So why should I spend any effort in trying to make things right with her when I can find someone else? I'm not going to try to change someone who I percieve as a princess. It doesn't even matter if she understands why I don't talk to her anymore. In this situation, my feelings have priority over the feelings of others.

That's all fair. I think your viewpoints have been very fair and rational thus far - but also very tit-for-tat, like I said. I do think it would be useful to you to extend yourself into giving others the benefit of the doubt a little more. It might help prevent the sort of situation that happened with the ESFP - maybe if you had just asked her why she did that, or something of that nature. Inevitably misunderstandings occur and you might gain some extra really good relationships and experiences by just giving a little extra leniency.

(That said, I'm not against shutting people out. I've done two in the last few years for the first time in my life and I still think both were good decisions. Maybe this ESFP really is toxic. I just am not sure that toxicity can be judged through this situation alone.)

Because people do it all the time, they throw out sympathy to an individual, but it's off-hand it's in the moment. The person who throws out that sympathy probably isn't looking to make a friend, they are just reacting in a manner they believe is the correct or more courteous, they aren't going to invest any time or deeper thought into the matter.

It's the same way in which some people give soiled clothes to charity shops then feel good about themselves. What exactly did they give up there? They certainly couldn't give a fuck about the people they are helping, they just want their 5 minutes of feel good glow.

Maybe some people are sincerely intentioned, but they are the minority and I find they fade into the background compared with the vast majority.

This is probably sounding like a disgusting level of judgement and I suppose it is. It's just I get tired of seeing empty platitudes with little action. If someone truly cares THEY ACT.

I really think empty sympathy is dangerous. It could be asked who am I to judge what is empty sympathy, well I would say it shows in the action, not the intent.

Anyone can claim to intend something, very few prove that they do. And while it is true that it isn't always the giver of sympathies fault that the recipient can latch onto them more than they intended, they could have at least considered that outcome and the level of commitment they were willing to divulge before they involved themselves in someone else's life.

Mm, I agree with you that intention doesn't always lead to action, and that can be dangerous. It's a good point that it can lead to empty ego-boosting. At the same time, I think it's also just a natural result of there being a lot more situations in the world that need sympathy than we can ever act on. At least sympathizing is a small start.

Most selflessness is ultimately another form of selfishness. For example, enneagram 2's need to help others to feel good about themselves. E3's need to help others to not feel worthless, etc.

True. Though perhaps also, a useful survival mechanism on the part of the human race. Kindness benefits both the giver and receiver. It would pit us against one another all the time if there were no inherent reward to altruism.

 

[Lexicon]

Admittedly though, people don't really want doormats do they? It's nice to sympathise, but that sympathy is usually empty. Often it can do more harm than good.

No, I doubt anyone wants to be a doormat, but walking over them just because you can would be a morally disgusting thing to do, imo. I wasn't talking about sympathy- I was only talking here about not taking advantage of potential weaknesses for one's own benefit (in this scenario- it was exploring the possibility of her pushing him to sate her own curiosity about his disposition, though I'm dubious that's truly the case here). It's parasitic to use people like that, even on a minor scale.

 

[Azure Flame]

No, I doubt anyone wants to be a doormat, but walking over them just because you can would be a morally disgusting thing to do, imo. I wasn't talking about sympathy- I was only talking here about not taking advantage of potential weaknesses for one's own benefit (in this scenario- it was exploring the possibility of her pushing him to sate her own curiosity about his disposition, though I'm dubious that's truly the case here). It's parasitic to use people like that, even on a minor scale.

Yes. Its hard for me to have any empathy for someone who thinks this way except in the realm of business, where morals no longer apply, haha.

 

[Seymour]

I confess I'm still baffled by the level of the hurt, and wonder if this is mostly about e8 power dynamics. She asked you to do a minor favor, to which you could have said "no," or turned into a joke (marveling "Wow! Thanks, you shouldn't have!", then tossing it aside carelessly), or otherwise sidestepped ("we can throw it away on the way out"). But, instead you took it as her asking you to demeaningly "lower yourself," which you grudgingly did after snarling at her (a reaction which probably came out of the blue from her perspective). Does it bother you that you complied, on some level? Is that part of the upset? At any rate, now, in your eyes, she needs to lower herself in return, by apologizing.

I don't see how she could possibly be expected to know how hurt you were, or what saying "could you throw this away for me?" symbolized to you. Requesting a minor favor (unless it is done nastily) is generally not seen as a grave offense. A habitual pattern of asking for favors with no reciprocation would show some attitude, but to read so much into a single event seems a little excessive. Was there more to the story? Was her manner amazingly nasty/superior? Was there something on her part that made you interpret it that way?

In some relationships (familial, friendship, dating), people do minor favors for each other all the time. In others, they don't.

 

[Azure Flame]

I confess I'm still baffled by the level of the hurt, and wonder if this is mostly about e8 power dynamics. She asked you to do a minor favor, to which you could have said "no," or turned into a joke (marveling "Wow! Thanks, you shouldn't have!", then tossing it aside carelessly), or otherwise sidestepped ("we can throw it away on the way out"). But, instead you took it as her asking you to demeaningly "lower yourself," which you grudgingly did after snarling at her (a reaction which probably came out of the blue from her perspective). Does it bother you that you complied, on some level? Is that part of the upset? At any rate, now, in your eyes, she needs to lower herself in return, by apologizing.

I don't see how she could possibly be expected to know how hurt you were, or what saying "could you throw this away for me?" symbolized to you. Requesting a minor favor (unless it is done nastily) is generally not seen as a grave offense. A habitual pattern of asking for favors with no reciprocation would show some attitude, but to read so much into a single event seems a little excessive. Was there more to the story? Was her manner amazingly nasty/superior? Was there something on her part that made you interpret it that way?

In some relationships (familial, friendship, dating), people do minor favors for each other all the time. In others, they don't.

I think you have the story correct so far.

To answer your questions:
her behavior was condescending. She treated me as if I was just another guy who'd do anything for her, and it indicated that if this was the case she'd very obviously take advantage of me. It also makes me recall the saying "don't mistake my kindness for weakness." She underestimates me. These are the only people in life that I have learned to avoid at all costs, because they will never strive to understand me past what they see.

My feelings are very easily hurt by anyone I expose my heart to (and I expose my heart to very few... and often times the internet for some reason), and the mere thought that she needed to test if I was a doormat implies that those thoughts cross her mind somewhere at some point in time. It implies a disrespect for the men who approach her. Why would anyone test to see if the guy is a doormat? What ever happened to talking to them to get to know them?

E8 power dynamics aren't a self referencing phenomenon. Part of the reason E8's worry about power dynamics is to avoid being hurt. To protect themselves and from all the BS most people put them through. As I've spend 23 years of my life being "open minded" to most people, I've learned that this is a road to hurt, and I've thus started door slamming anyone on the first sign that they're not someone I want to deal with. I think she's an E6. In my experience those have almost always been very push pull and hurtful people to open up to. So to be tested like this only tells me that this is just the beginning.

Its incredibly judgemental, but this is a learned tactic I've developed over the years and for good reason. And my life is becoming much better because of it.

 

[WALMART]

You're a self-described ball of energy, maybe she was thinking you would enjoy the experience of walking to the trash can. Maybe spot a cool car or hot babe on the way, or find a hundred dollar bill on the ground, or meet the president or something.


Maybe you can write the situation off and apologize to her for your actions. I don't think demanding or expecting an apology is any way to go about it, particularly the former.

 

[Azure Flame]

I'm not demanding an apology. I'm trying to figure out if she's giving me one or not just by her actions.

Anyway I think the verdict so far is that, I need to talk to her about it regardless. I was under the impression that she knew exactly what she was doing and was well aware why I'm pissed at her. I suppose I could be overestimating her capacity to read my mannerisms and put 2 and 2 together.

She asks me to do her a favor with her hand on her hip and a deadpan disrespectful look in her eye that she's never given me before,
I glare at her, then curse at her and don't talk to ever again.
As I'm leaving she said, "its ok, you can have sex with my... sister."

Now she's flirting with me hardcore again. She knows why I'm pissed off. She's been trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug as if it wasn't a big deal.

I was trying to figure it out via typology because I really don't want to bring it up with her anymore. I'd rather move on and forget about it, but only if she feels remorse or something. If she is unwilling to acknowledge that I don't appreciate her behavior, then I don't want anything to do with her.

 

[chickpea]

Why did you break this girl's phone?

 

[WALMART]

My apologies, I thought this

I haven't bothered asking her to either. Last time I asked an esfp to appologize to me was a disaster.

meant the possibility was out there, just helping you reinforce the idea that not being satisfied an explicit apology is given may not be in your best interests, should you truly desire to resolve this altercation. Good luck, whatever happens.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Listen, you like her still, eh, you wanna get with this girl? Just TALK to her. Just open that door. You can do it!