[ISFJ] ISFJ characteristics. What sets you apart?

[skylights]

I wonder if this is the biggest thing that leads to the misunderstandings. I have thought this before.

In either case on the topic of the thread, this difference of Fi as dominant (INFP) vs Fe as auxiliary (for the ISFJ) is a huge difference between the two

Very true. Fi as leader and Fe as helper. Fi as the point and Fe as helping get to the point. In some ways ENFP-ISFJ exchange might be a little easier because both of us pull in our F processes to assist us in gathering information, when what we love most is the nitty-gritty of the information. With ISFJ-INFP I think it becomes more about both taking in, but ISFJ experientially and INFP emotionally. Conjecture on my end is that ISFJ and INFP will tend to enjoy similar sorts of experiences but will take them in very differently.

I'm sorry for butting in here. This thread is so interesting and helpful for me. *takes notes*

Yeeeessss.

This has been one of the two causes (ahem, the one which I'm to blame for) of every major misunderstanding had between my INFP partner and myself. You put it so much more concisely than I've been able to. I almost want to show him your post now.

Sorry. Carry on.

eta: dammit. I swear I didn't see highlander's post before writing this.

Please feel welcome to butt in!! I am too, and I love to hear from more ISFJs! Thank you for your compliment, and I agree that it is one of our misunderstandings, too. I really have to work on thinking about what my "message" is when I say something, and not just what the content of what I'm saying is. Asking myself why I would say something like that, and how it will come across to him. It's made me so much more aware of how I must be coming off to others IRL. It's challenging, though, to feel that sense of responsibility for all speech/actions! It becomes a whole different world through J eyes.

[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] I just want to say that you are so lovely, fair and understanding and your ISFJ is really lucky to have you.

Oh you are too sweet I think that you are lovely and kind and straightforward yourself, and whoever has/will have you is lucky too!

I can agree to this and I'm not at all against patience with your partner. What I, as the Fe-user, would request is that the Fi-user equally understand is that we're doing the best we can with the information you're giving us information that's faulty or confusing then I would humbly ask you guys to be patient with us

It works both ways.

That sounds incredibly cute

Hehe thank you

If I may make a suggestion: Try describing a scenario in which what you're thinking or feeling about plays out in a real life situation. That could help place your thoughts and feelings in some sort of context.

Oh, thank you so much! I have never thought of doing that. He loves examples. I will definitely try that next time!!

I think this is ESPECIALLY worth noting and also I personally feel you may have just bridged the Fi-Fe divide [...] Well done dear

Well thank you so much!! Only with your and other Fe users' help, so well done for you, too!!

This is what I mean by confusing actions. To you Fi-users your methods expression may be disconnected some some sort of coherent meaning but when we read it, we're trying to assign a pattern to it and...the results aren't always pretty.

Yes, absolutely. And let me pull in what you said to highlander, and respond, because I think there is a HUGE point here about the difference in PiJe and PeJi that really creates misunderstanding -

That very well may be true...but I simply fail to understand why that's somehow my problem. Again, I will do my best to accommodate them and try to work with whatever information they can give me, but if I'm not giving them what they want, there is only so much I am willing to take responsibility for but I would ask them to concede that if they themselves don't know how to express this in way that is, as you put it, "easy or obvious for others to understand" then there is truly only so much I can do. [...] I really love this one-sided special treatment that you almost seem to be implying that Fi-users should get.

With no offense meant at all, tinker, I think that a minor part of the problem is that the collective of Fe users who do better understand how to word things externally do tend to create a Fe-dominated external world where it is more of a struggle for us Fi users. It's certainly not any Fe user's fault, individually, especially considering how kind and conscientious most Fe users tend to be, but Fe users are a tiny bit responsible in that they use their own modes of feeling and expressing and welcome others, but don't really actively look for new ways of expression (which is simply fallout from the way Je works). FePi is very warm and welcoming but not necessarily very aware that others may be expressing the same thing radically differently, or at least FePi doesn't consider it a priority to seek out and integrate new and different modes of expression. Si might not recognize a new mode if it doesn't fit with anything that has been experienced before, and Ni might not recognize it if it doesn't fit with their conception of that form of expression. Fi users are more... well, we don't really expect certain forms of communication as much from others. If anything, Ne and Se cause us to expect variety, and to always be searching for new and different modes of expression. So we really do approach each new person with "special treatment" because we assume each new person will be completely, completely different. As a result of being used in tandem with Pe, Fi is used to being more of a "filter" than a funnel, as we attempt to catch the emotional undercurrents that indicate meaning, instead of identifying the correct "form" of expression that indicates meaning, like FePi is better at doing. So as a result, we are less consistent personally, but we also do not expect consistency from others.

As an Fe-user I should have to be more accommodating but they're not required to understand and recognize just how confusing they may be presenting themselves and work to try and better that? Does that seem fair to you?

Absolutely.

 

[tinker683]

It's fascinating how you think it should be your issue. I never said it is. I don't think the Fi user thinks it is or should be. Maybe that's part of the problem. It's part of your identity to try and understand other people and if you can't because they are giving out what you perceive to be “confusing signals” then it causes you distress, which is why you keep emphasizing that it's their problem if they can't communicate properly. They don't even think there is a problem lol. They just don't think they are on the same wavelength as you.

The problem comes when we're being accused of not understanding you guys. If you yourselves aren't even aware of how it is you really feel about something, then how in the world am I supposed too? I'm doing the best I've got with what you're giving me. Telling me "you just don't understand me" feels unfair to me in this respect.

You are correct that it causes me distress. It distresses me because I am trying to understand you and connect with you and it's frustrates me when I get mixed or contradicting signals.

She just had a hard time communicating verbally how she was feeling. She couldn't translate what was going on inside of her head/heart into words. An example of a conversation - me asking questions, her saying a little and me reading mostly her facial expressions. It seems unusual now that I think back on it. It's how she was though and actually, I did get to be pretty good at reading her mind.

I see. I'm sorry to hear that things didn't work out.

This is so funny. I've heard this "one-sided special treatment" many times and I never really quite get it. It’s their responsibility to express themselves in a way so that you can understand them. If they can’t, then it’s a problem because they are confusing and it’s important because you want to understand them. I think it’s a lot more important to you that you understand them than it is for them to be understood by you.

I think you're right, and I wonder if this is related to how Fe-users connect and interact in the world (something skylights touched on in her reply post to me)

I’m not trying to give you a hard time. I just think the whole way you think about the issue is interesting and completely illustrative of the difference between Fe and Fi, so thanks for participating in the dialogue.

I didn't think you were, in fact you've been incredibly patient and understanding. If anything I owe you an apology, I've been very short with you. While I stand by my opinions and my statements, I could have conducted myself better.

Yes, absolutely. And let me pull in what you said to highlander, and respond, because I think there is a HUGE point here about the difference in PiJe and PeJi that really creates misunderstanding -



With no offense meant at all, tinker, I think that a minor part of the problem is that the collective of Fe users who do better understand how to word things externally do tend to create a Fe-dominated external world where it is more of a struggle for us Fi users. It's certainly not any Fe user's fault, individually, especially considering how kind and conscientious most Fe users tend to be, but Fe users are a tiny bit responsible in that they use their own modes of feeling and expressing and welcome others, but don't really actively look for new ways of expression (which is simply fallout from the way Je works). FePi is very warm and welcoming but not necessarily very aware that others may be expressing the same thing radically differently, or at least FePi doesn't consider it a priority to seek out and integrate new and different modes of expression. Si might not recognize a new mode if it doesn't fit with anything that has been experienced before, and Ni might not recognize it if it doesn't fit with their conception of that form of expression. Fi users are more... well, we don't really expect certain forms of communication as much from others. If anything, Ne and Se cause us to expect variety, and to always be searching for new and different modes of expression. So we really do approach each new person with "special treatment" because we assume each new person will be completely, completely different. As a result of being used in tandem with Pe, Fi is used to being more of a "filter" than a funnel, as we attempt to catch the emotional undercurrents that indicate meaning, instead of identifying the correct "form" of expression that indicates meaning, like FePi is better at doing. So as a result, we are less consistent personally, but we also do not expect consistency from others.

Interesting, especially the bolded. I hadn't really thought of it this way.

I suppose I come off the way that I do because I'm an Si-dom and an Fe-aux. I look around the world and I see VERY common patterns in which people express themselves and connect with each other. When I hear words like "anger" and "happiness" and "love" these all carry with them an attached list of thoughts, behaviors, and actions and these "lists" seem to be generally shared by virtually everyone I've ever come into contact with (the 'standard' I spoke of earlier) and when someone acts outside of those lists and actions, I have to try and adapt and I add to these lists, broadening my experiences. For the most part this isn't really an issue but when it becomes a problem is when the actions contradict each other OR they start to develop a pattern that demonstrates something else than what the other person is expressing or behaving to me - that they aren't interested, that they're upset with me, etc..

I don't think Fi-users really understand JUST how perceptive Fe-users are. We are observing every action, deed, and thing you say and not just what you say but HOW you say it and the inflection and tone you use. I said this once before and I'll say it again: People have no idea how much of themselves they give away not just in what they say and do but what they don't say and do. It's from these external queues that we read you.

When I (and perhaps other Fe-users) get frustrated with Fi-users is when I do communicate with you, and you guys get frustrated with me because I'm not understanding you when you don't quite understand yourselves or what it is you really, I feel like you're putting more responsibility on to me than is fairly allowed and that's hard for me to deal with. I WANT to connect with you, I WANT to get you, and I imagine all of these ISFJ parents that get crapped on for being 'simpletons' want too as well, and I feel like these ISFJs aren't being handled as fairly as should.

I'm willing to concede and that I and perhaps other Fe-users (though I won't claim to speak for them) tend to project onto the world how it is that we think the world ought to be and I can see why that would be frustrating for Fi-users who follow the 'beat of their own drum' as it were. Here we are projecting our world views, telling everyone how things should be, and you guys feel like you're being told you're a part of a system you didn't sign on for or necessarily agree with! I imagine we come off as as sanctimonious or self-righteous at best and tyrannical at worst.

My 2 cents..

 

[Giggly]

I would like to express my feelings and say that I hate this thread. It seriously sucks. thankyoubuhbye.

 

[tinker683]

I would like to express my feelings and say that I hate this thread. It seriously sucks. thankyoubuhbye.

Sorry, my negativity poo-pooed all over the thread...

 

[OrangeAppled]

You're missing the point. I'm not talking about "accepting someone for as they are" or anything like that. What I'm talking about is a disconnect between how a person really feels about something and how it is they are choosing to express it. If you tell me that you're upset about something but you don't express discontent, I can't be held responsible for that. Your actions need to match your words.

For some people, especially thinking types, emotional expression does not add clarity. A major purpose for using emotion when expressing is that it adds weight. Notably, Fe types supposedly don't always feel emotions they show; it's not "faking", it's simply using emotion as a communication tool.

However, back to those thinking types - they may actively work to separate emotions from their judging because they aren't judging in terms of human value, so the emotions just become distracting noise. Because they have not been in the habit of processing & using emotion as something that clarifies & communicates clearly, they may not be very good at it. It can be scary, uncharted territory they may try to avoid.

It's something of a gift of the NFPs to NOT read people's minds & tell them how they feel or what they need, but to help someone navigate that uncharted territory in a safe, nonjudgmental way. There is no proper way in this process; it's messy & complicated, but after working through all the muck the person can find their feelings are clarified & ordered so they can THEN be expressed properly.

I know this is going to sound incredibly judgmental and Fe-like, but I do believe that, by and large, there is a pretty universal standard for how it is to express and communicate feelings. Some people may do more quietly or more forcefully than others but by and large there are universal traits that everyone recognizes. If you're happy, you smile. If you're angry, you'll scowl or raise your voice or other such examples. Everyone may have their own little pet ways of expressing and doing things (however ambiguous they may or may not be) and everyone has their own eccentricities and in that case it's a matter of understanding that particular individual. But...again, if your actions aren't matching your words, then I can't be blamed for misunderstanding you.

Not universal, but cultural. In different cultures, those physical signs can actually signal very different feelings. For example, smiling with the teeth showing in the US means friendly/happy/confident - in some other places, it means aggressive/threatening/taunting. My ISFP step-dad is from an island culture that is much, much more subdued in expression than my ISFJ's mom's western & latin upbringing. I've seen conflict between them there because she thinks he's asking her to read his mind & he doesn't get why she doesn't see the signals he sent.

Anyhow, Fe to me is very much like language, and language seems very Fe in a lot of ways. We have a common, agreed upon meaning for these vocal sounds & we use them to communicate & keep life going. Being a Fi type when young can kind of be like being a foreigner in another country & speaking a different native tongue. You have to translate your feelings to what is appropriate & a lot can get lost in translation, or you struggle to find the words because you're not a native speaker & it doesn't flow naturally for you.

It's a common theme for Fi-dom to struggle with confidence, and I think it's because we learn early that we're prone to being misunderstood, and it gives a sense of being "wrong" all the time. So you almost begin to approach everything as something that is "wrong", either apologetically or defensively or self-deprecatingly or defiantly. This can compound the issue of course. I grew up being told I was "wrong" a lot, but I had trouble seeing what was "normal" & was awkward in adopting it, and sometimes when I did see it, it felt wrong to me, so I was stubborn to adopt it. For me, the action matching my words was often NOT the normal, standard. That felt WRONG to me. I had to almost invent something because the "language" was inadequate. I used drawing a lot as a child for this. The issue arises when the feeling has NO assigned outer, common signal. This is an issue Fi types face rather regularly.

So while it's true the burden lies upon the minority usually to adapt to be understood, it's helpful when someone sees that bigger picture & doesn't assume negative intentions. It's like not assuming a foreigner is rude or crazy because they don't adhere perfectly to your country's way. You make some allowances at least, and at best, you celebrate differences & learn to be more adaptable yourself.

My poor ISFJ mom is actually surrounded by FPs (me, my step-dad & sister), and I think she has probably had to adapt with us. We communicate in a more raw way & are admittedly inconsistent & hard to decipher at times. She's made very similar remarks as you about "universal" signals, which is sort of humorous to me. She wants us to adapt to some abstract standard that is irrelvant to the majority in this case - she never will recognize it as her preference. In having conversations like this, I see she just wants some outer consistency as a guide to act on. That's perfectly understandable.... this is what Fe is good at, but it doesn't operate at its best level when a person is stuck on a standard that no longer is relevant to an environment (when Si gets stubborn).

As an ISFJ 9w1 sx/sp, the only times I ever feel like I'm not getting more point across is when I'm afraid of creating conflict and you know what? That's my problem and not the problem the people around me. If they are doing something that can create conflict with me, then I need to speak up and express that it's bother me. If I choose not to do that then I bear full responsibility as I can't reasonably expect them to accomodate me if I don't give them a chance too.

It definitely is an individual's problem if they are not communicating clearly, but people can stop making attempts to when others are quick to dismiss expressions that don't align with their personal "shoulds". The misunderstanding becomes their problem too then, because they aren't meeting someone halfway (which is what good communication is often about).

A relationship is not a business... there should be a higher level of compassionate & unselfish accommodating, IMO. It's the most personal sphere of life. So if your partner is not communicating perfectly clearly, for the sake of your relationship, it can be good to NOT jump to conclusions because they didn't express properly & you can't help that. This is especially true if over time you KNOW they do not communicate or process feelings in the same way you do or that most people do.

I've had to struggle against that "universal standard" with SFJ family members because everything becomes case-by-case. It's like that standard is always default when faced with the unknown instead of them being able to extrapolate off of what is known about you (which is the NFP way). Of course they have their gifts. They have much better social skills in many ways than I do. They communicate better in a casual, everyday manner.

 

[tinker683]

For some people, especially thinking types, emotional expression does not add clarity. A major purpose for using emotion when expressing is that it adds weight. Notably, Fe types supposedly don't always feel emotions they show; it's not "faking", it's simply using emotion as a communication tool.

However, back to those thinking types - they may actively work to separate emotions from their judging because they aren't judging in terms of human value, so the emotions just become distracting noise. Because they have not been in the habit of processing & using emotion as something that clarifies & communicates clearly, they may not be very good at it. It can be scary, uncharted territory they may try to avoid.

It's something of a gift of the NFPs to NOT read people's minds & tell them how they feel or what they need, but to help someone navigate that uncharted territory in a safe, nonjudgmental way. There is no proper way in this process; it's messy & complicated, but after working through all the muck the person can find their feelings are clarified & ordered so they can THEN be expressed properly.

What exactly do you mean by the bolded?

Also, an interesting thought. If I'm understanding you correctly and please correct me if I'm not, you're stating that Thinking types or NFPs don't use emotions as a communication tool. Fair enough. If this is true, then how do you choose to communicate your needs and if your response is "verbal" then how I am, as an Fe-type, to construe your words when they don't match your actions?

Not universal, but cultural. In different cultures, those physical signs can actually signal very different feelings. For example, smiling with the teeth showing in the US means friendly/happy/confident - in some other places, it means aggressive/threatening/taunting. My ISFP step-dad is from an island culture that is much, much more subdued in expression than my ISFJ's mom's western & latin upbringing. I've seen conflict between them there because she thinks he's asking her to read his mind & he doesn't get why she doesn't see the signals he sent.

Anyhow, Fe to me is very much like language, and language seems very Fe in a lot of ways. We have a common, agreed upon meaning for these vocal sounds & we use them to communicate & keep life going. Being a Fi type when young can kind of be like being a foreigner in another country & speaking a different native tongue. You have to translate your feelings to what is appropriate & a lot can get lost in translation, or you struggle to find the words because you're not a native speaker & it doesn't flow naturally for you.

A fair point. Thank you for pointing this out.

It's a common theme for Fi-dom to struggle with confidence, and I think it's because we learn early that we're prone to being misunderstood, and it gives a sense of being "wrong" all the time. So you almost begin to approach everything as something that is "wrong", either apologetically or defensively or self-deprecatingly or defiantly. This can compound the issue of course. I grew up being told I was "wrong" a lot, but I had trouble seeing what was "normal" & was awkward in adopting it, and sometimes when I did see it, it felt wrong to me, so I was stubborn to adopt it. For me, the action matching my words was often NOT the normal, standard. That felt WRONG to me. I had to almost invent something because the "language" was inadequate. I used drawing a lot as a child for this. The issue arises when the feeling has NO assigned outer, common signal. This is an issue Fi types face rather regularly.

I can understand this, and I'm sorry to hear that.

So while it's true the burden lies upon the minority usually to adapt to be understood, it's helpful when someone sees that bigger picture & doesn't assume negative intentions. It's like not assuming a foreigner is rude or crazy because they don't adhere perfectly to your country's way. You make some allowances at least, and at best, you celebrate differences & learn to be more adaptable yourself.

Agreed, and I wonder now if this was the "bias" that highlander kept referring too and I can see why it is he might felt I was imposing in a negative way. As an Fe-user, matters of emotions and expression are very cut and dry for me. being both an Si and Fe user, actions need to be consistent and while I can bend a lot (or at least I'd like to think I can), I can only bend so much and when a user's actions are simply too different from what their words are communicating I can have an *extremely* difficult time understanding and accepting the attempts at communications. At best I'd just be dismissive, at worst outright hostile and distrustful.

My poor ISFJ mom is actually surrounded by FPs (me, my step-dad & sister), and I think she has probably had to adapt with us. We communicate in a more raw way & are admittedly inconsistent & hard to decipher at times. She's made very similar remarks as you about "universal" signals, which is sort of humorous to me. She wants us to adapt to some abstract standard that is irrelvant to the majority in this case - she never will recognize it as her preference. In having conversations like this, I see she just wants some outer consistency as a guide to act on. That's perfectly understandable.... this is what Fe is good at, but it doesn't operate at its best level when a person is stuck on a standard that no longer is relevant to an environment (when Si gets stubborn).

I can see that, and I run into a similar brick wall when I deal with Fe-users of older generations. I can see the merit in their values but some of then are in dire need of reform.

It definitely is an individual's problem if they are not communicating clearly, but people can stop making attempts to when others are quick to dismiss expressions that don't align with their personal "shoulds". The misunderstanding becomes their problem too then, because they aren't meeting someone halfway (which is what good communication is often about).

Agreed.

A relationship is not a business... there should be a higher level of compassionate & unselfish accommodating, IMO. It's the most personal sphere of life. So if your partner is not communicating perfectly clearly, for the sake of your relationship, it can be good to NOT jump to conclusions because they didn't express properly & you can't help that. This is especially true if over time you KNOW they do not communicate or process feelings in the same way you do or that most people do.

In the beginning of a relationship I would agree with this. In every personal relationship I've been in there is always a long "adjusting" period for me I learn about the individual's quirks and habits and for lack of a better term "way of being". The problem I've found is after the relationship has progressed for quite a period of time and their actions are still inconsistant with the framework I've been able to devise for this individual and I've recently learned this is because I always treated people as if there was a logic or rational underpinnings for the way they do things. It's only recently come to my attention that individuals are neurotic and that I can't make sense of their actions because they can't even do that. These individuals I *have* to treat with kid gloves and as patronizing as that sounds...I really don't know of any other option.

I've had to struggle against that "universal standard" with SFJ family members because everything becomes case-by-case. It's like that standard is always default when faced with the unknown instead of them being able to extrapolate off of what is known about you (which is the NFP way). Of course they have their gifts. They have much better social skills in many ways than I do. They communicate better in a casual, everyday manner.

That does sound incredibly rigid and I've noted this proclivity in myself many times, which is why I always try and keep these sorts of discussions open, to remind me and help me to understand you guys better. I try in my head to devise an individual "profile" of every person (their likes, dislikes, things they care and don't care about, etc..) and I try and go from that and it's seems to have worked out for me pretty well. Unless I complete this profile of this person in my head, I tend to stick to my "standard" and for the most part it seems to have worked out (the exception being what I aid above about neurosis).

 

[skylights]

Interesting, especially the bolded. I hadn't really thought of it this way.

I suppose I come off the way that I do because I'm an Si-dom and an Fe-aux. I look around the world and I see VERY common patterns in which people express themselves and connect with each other. When I hear words like "anger" and "happiness" and "love" these all carry with them an attached list of thoughts, behaviors, and actions and these "lists" seem to be generally shared by virtually everyone I've ever come into contact with (the 'standard' I spoke of earlier) and when someone acts outside of those lists and actions, I have to try and adapt and I add to these lists, broadening my experiences. For the most part this isn't really an issue but when it becomes a problem is when the actions contradict each other OR they start to develop a pattern that demonstrates something else than what the other person is expressing or behaving to me - that they aren't interested, that they're upset with me, etc..

I don't think Fi-users really understand JUST how perceptive Fe-users are. We are observing every action, deed, and thing you say and not just what you say but HOW you say it and the inflection and tone you use. I said this once before and I'll say it again: People have no idea how much of themselves they give away not just in what they say and do but what they don't say and do. It's from these external queues that we read you.

When I (and perhaps other Fe-users) get frustrated with Fi-users is when I do communicate with you, and you guys get frustrated with me because I'm not understanding you when you don't quite understand yourselves or what it is you really, I feel like you're putting more responsibility on to me than is fairly allowed and that's hard for me to deal with. I WANT to connect with you, I WANT to get you, and I imagine all of these ISFJ parents that get crapped on for being 'simpletons' want too as well, and I feel like these ISFJs aren't being handled as fairly as should.

I'm willing to concede and that I and perhaps other Fe-users (though I won't claim to speak for them) tend to project onto the world how it is that we think the world ought to be and I can see why that would be frustrating for Fi-users who follow the 'beat of their own drum' as it were. Here we are projecting our world views, telling everyone how things should be, and you guys feel like you're being told you're a part of a system you didn't sign on for or necessarily agree with! I imagine we come off as as sanctimonious or self-righteous at best and tyrannical at worst.

My 2 cents..

I see what you mean, and I totally agree with you that Fe users (all Js, really) are incredibly observant of consistency of behavior. Looping back to what I mentioned about lack of intention earlier, it's actually somewhat terrifying, to a P, because we don't put deliberate/conscious external intention into all our behavior. If my boyfriend and I are sitting on the couch together at a gathering, and I give him a hug, it might be because I want to communicate warmth and love to him, or because it seems like he could use affirmation at the moment, or because socially it is an indicator of our bond and comfort with one another - or it might really just be that the idea of hugging popped into my head and seemed pleasant, and I didn't even think about what it might indicate to him or how it might be interpreted contextually by anyone else. It explains the sometime-awkwardness of P behavior, because we don't really always think about what the external indications or consequences of that behavior may be before embarking upon it.

So when a J type calls us on our behavior, and says that it's telling them something about us, it can feel foreign to the point of completely inaccurate because we didn't always intend it. I think you guys pick up on a lot of subconscious patterns that we don't even see ourselves, and that can be incredibly valuable for us to hear, and to begin to work on consistency and awareness of behavior, but as a J you have to understand that you may be presenting information to us that seems crystal clear to you but is a relatively large blind spot to us, and as such it may make us very uncomfortable or simply not seem right to us at all. I think as a 6 I tend to be wary of consequence, but I'm not always particularly good at taking the external context in, in terms of thinking about functional meaning (as in, what would that hug at a gathering communicate to him? to everyone else? how should I time it? is it appropriate?, and so on) - because I'm more used to looking to the external world as a source of pure information (Pe) instead of an arena of cause and effect (Je).

When I (and perhaps other Fe-users) get frustrated with Fi-users is when I do communicate with you, and you guys get frustrated with me because I'm not understanding you when you don't quite understand yourselves or what it is you really, I feel like you're putting more responsibility on to me than is fairly allowed and that's hard for me to deal with. I WANT to connect with you, I WANT to get you, and I imagine all of these ISFJ parents that get crapped on for being 'simpletons' want too as well, and I feel like these ISFJs aren't being handled as fairly as should.

I wanted to come back to this because I agree that I also imagine loving, well-intentioned ISFJ parents being villianized, but at the same time, I know from experience with my ESFJ mom that there can be a painful disconnect between FP and FJ in terms of an FP child's emotional needs not being met and them not feeling supported as a result. Like it's been said, it's very hard for FPs to vocalize what we feel sometimes - my mom and boyfriend help me by "walking me through" and asking questions about what I feel (their tactic, not mine). I remember as a child that my mom would often provide me with everything I could possibly want, but sometimes she would leave to go get me things, and all I really wanted was for her to stay with me and be emotionally supportive. I think that's also a bit of an sp-dom (mom) versus sx-dom (me) effect, but it also is the FJ emphasis on form versus the FP emphasis on content again. From my mom's POV, she was doing all of these things for me, so I should feel loved and supported. From my POV, she wasn't with me, so I felt abandoned, even though I understood that she wanted to help me. Sometimes it felt like I was "untouchable" for some reason - like I knew she wanted to help me and that she loved me but that she didn't connect with me.

The label "simpleton" is cruel, but it's true that to an NFP, sometimes the SJ perspective can seem like it's missing a very big component in terms of leaving room for things that have yet to be experienced or things that might be - things that SFJs, in interacting with others, do not always leave much room for. Part of it is that Js are working with the present external bounds, while Ps assume lack of external bounds, so you guys utilize the external information available, while we assume there's always more. So when you act upon what you know - which to us is clearly not everything - it can be frustrating. I think this is the "invisible" responsibility - perhaps what seems unfair to you? - that is being thrust upon the SFJ - that of accounting for what you do not know. What the NFP does not understand is that for Je to work, you have to know what you don't know, not simply that you don't know. For Pe to work, all you have to do is leave open space.

Does that make sense? I agree that it's not fair to assume SFJs for simpletons or for the people who interact with them to get upset that they're not mind readers, but SFJs can work on leaving more room for unusual possibilities and trying to get more individualized input from NFPs. Thinking that we are inconsistent just because of external behavior misses the HUGE internal consistency grid of Fi - it's just that our consistency is mapped into our value responses instead of our behavioral initiations. You just have to look in a different place.

I would like to express my feelings and say that I hate this thread. It seriously sucks. thankyoubuhbye.

I don't know. There's been a bit of conflict but I am learning a lot about ISFJs and about how to get along with you guys better and how to better see through your perspectives. So I'm really glad it exists.

Also, an interesting thought. If I'm understanding you correctly and please correct me if I'm not, you're stating that Thinking types or NFPs don't use emotions as a communication tool. Fair enough. If this is true, then how do you choose to communicate your needs and if your response is "verbal" then how I am, as an Fe-type, to construe your words when they don't match your actions?

If I can hop in - I think it comes back to assigning less weight of intention to actions. Don't assume that we necessarily meant anything by our actions beyond the immediate scope of the action itself. From my hug example again: it's entirely possible that I was just cold and really am oblivious/carefree enough to just latch onto this nice warm body next to me, since he's comfortable with me sharing his space. It's more about the "content" of the action than its functional meaning/form. Our communication, too, is really more content than form. If we're saying something that differs from our actions, it can generally be assumed that on some level we do mean what we're saying but behaviorally we fall short of it for some reason. I'd be happy to try to break down real life examples, if you have some.

 

[Azure Flame]

now you just have to find out if your judging style fit FiTe or FeTi better.

hey that's a good way of looking at it actually. I'll have to think about that.

 

[tinker683]

I see what you mean, and I totally agree with you that Fe users (all Js, really) are incredibly observant of consistency of behavior. Looping back to what I mentioned about lack of intention earlier, it's actually somewhat terrifying, to a P, because we don't put deliberate/conscious external intention into all our behavior. If my boyfriend and I are sitting on the couch together at a gathering, and I give him a hug, it might be because I want to communicate warmth and love to him, or because it seems like he could use affirmation at the moment, or because socially it is an indicator of our bond and comfort with one another - or it might really just be that the idea of hugging popped into my head and seemed pleasant, and I didn't even think about what it might indicate to him or how it might be interpreted contextually by anyone else. It explains the sometime-awkwardness of P behavior, because we don't really always think about what the external indications or consequences of that behavior may be before embarking upon it.

To be fair, I think you might be overstating how much we observe your actions. Certainly we do note your individual actions but whats more important to us is how it fits in to the overall pattern of behavior you have toward us. You leaning in to hug your boyfriend, if you've always been warm and affectionate with him, would only be noted as a behavior thats consistent with your actions thus far. The only time I could see it as being something of concern is if you are normally very cold to him (of which I sorely doubt you are ) at which case your behavior would be out of the ordinary so we would be left puzzling why you did that and trying to figure out what your angle or pattern is.

So when a J type calls us on our behavior, and says that it's telling them something about us, it can feel foreign to the point of completely inaccurate because we didn't always intend it. I think you guys pick up on a lot of subconscious patterns that we don't even see ourselves, and that can be incredibly valuable for us to hear, and to begin to work on consistency and awareness of behavior, but as a J you have to understand that you may be presenting information to us that seems crystal clear to you but is a relatively large blind spot to us, and as such it may make us very uncomfortable or simply not seem right to us at all. I think as a 6 I tend to be wary of consequence, but I'm not always particularly good at taking the external context in, in terms of thinking about functional meaning (as in, what would that hug at a gathering communicate to him? to everyone else? how should I time it? is it appropriate?, and so on) - because I'm more used to looking to the external world as a source of pure information (Pe) instead of an arena of cause and effect (Je).

I've heard this expressed before, that you didn't intend for an action to result in something and I actually got into a heated argument with my INxx-ex girlfriend (I'm starting to suspect she was an INFP). She always seemed to act like that just because she didn't intend on doing something somehow absolved her of the action itself. I told her that while a persons intentions are very important, they still have to take responsibility for whatever actions may have resulted from their mishap. I wouldn't hold it against her if she didn't intend on harming me but that didn't change the fact that she did do harm to me. You may have not intended on breaking the cookie jar...but you still broke it...and we still have a broken cookie jar that needs to be fixed. I felt like she needed to own up to that (not to breaking a cookie jar, but rather the principle I was getting at) .She didn't agree with me. To me, this is a basic tenet of being a responsible adult.

Looking back though, I think I was projecting my own sense of responsibility onto her and expecting her to share that. That's not entirely fair.

I suspect this was a Fi-Fe conflict more than anything.

I wanted to come back to this because I agree that I also imagine loving, well-intentioned ISFJ parents being villianized, but at the same time, I know from experience with my ESFJ mom that there can be a painful disconnect between FP and FJ in terms of an FP child's emotional needs not being met and them not feeling supported as a result. Like it's been said, it's very hard for FPs to vocalize what we feel sometimes - my mom and boyfriend help me by "walking me through" and asking questions about what I feel (their tactic, not mine). I remember as a child that my mom would often provide me with everything I could possibly want, but sometimes she would leave to go get me things, and all I really wanted was for her to stay with me and be emotionally supportive. I think that's also a bit of an sp-dom (mom) versus sx-dom (me) effect, but it also is the FJ emphasis on form versus the FP emphasis on content again. From my mom's POV, she was doing all of these things for me, so I should feel loved and supported. From my POV, she wasn't with me, so I felt abandoned, even though I understood that she wanted to help me. Sometimes it felt like I was "untouchable" for some reason - like I knew she wanted to help me and that she loved me but that she didn't connect with me.

I can understand that and I'm sorry she didn't. Did you ever tell her that you just wanted her to be there? Have you talked to her about this since then?

The label "simpleton" is cruel, but it's true that to an NFP, sometimes the SJ perspective can seem like it's missing a very big component in terms of leaving room for things that have yet to be experienced or things that might be - things that SFJs, in interacting with others, do not always leave much room for. Part of it is that Js are working with the present external bounds, while Ps assume lack of external bounds, so you guys utilize the external information available, while we assume there's always more. So when you act upon what you know - which to us is clearly not everything - it can be frustrating. I think this is the "invisible" responsibility - perhaps what seems unfair to you? - that is being thrust upon the SFJ - that of accounting for what you do not know.

I think there are better ways of looking at this as what you said I think is a misunderstanding of our actions

1) It's not that we don't leave room for things (this to me implies we're closed minded) but rather it's that we don't need too. Our experience and knowledge of the situation is what usually dictates our actions in that situation and if you're reacting in a way that's very consistent with an experience we've had before...odds are we're going to gravitate to that assumption.

In other words: If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...I'm not going to immediately assume a geese.

I think it would fair to you Fi-users though if we Fe-users tried very hard not to jump to conclusions and try to analyze the situation first.

2) The "responsibility" we feel may be something that exists in our own heads. Highlander pointed out that it seemed more important to Fe users to understand Fi users than it is to them that they are understood and this is something I hadn't really considered before. I always assumed that people really want me to understand them as best they can, it never occured to me that understanding them may be more important to ME than it is to them. This means we may be projecting what we think we should be doing on to you and getting frustrated when we can't because of you going about your business and being all Fi and stuff That's our problem, and not yours.

What the NFP does not understand is that for Je to work, you have to know what you don't know, not simply that you don't know. For Pe to work, all you have to do is leave open space.

That sounds reasonable...but I'm not sure if I agree or disagree (mostly because I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to make a judgement on it)

Does that make sense? I agree that it's not fair to assume SFJs for simpletons or for the people who interact with them to get upset that they're not mind readers, but SFJs can work on leaving more room for unusual possibilities and trying to get more individualized input from NFPs. Thinking that we are inconsistent just because of external behavior misses the HUGE internal consistency grid of Fi - it's just that our consistency is mapped into our value responses instead of our behavioral initiations. You just have to look in a different place.

I can agree to that.

Can we haz truce now?

If I can hop in - I think it comes back to assigning less weight of intention to actions. Don't assume that we necessarily meant anything by our actions beyond the immediate scope of the action itself. From my hug example again: it's entirely possible that I was just cold and really am oblivious/carefree enough to just latch onto this nice warm body next to me, since he's comfortable with me sharing his space. It's more about the "content" of the action than its functional meaning/form. Our communication, too, is really more content than form. If we're saying something that differs from our actions, it can generally be assumed that on some level we do mean what we're saying but behaviorally we fall short of it for some reason. I'd be happy to try to break down real life examples, if you have some.

I have a few examples...but they're all very personal and frankly something I'm tired of ruminating over.

As I said in your above example, unless you're behavior was consistently something different than what you were saying your hug wouldn't seem at all out of the ordinary.

That being said I do understand the point you're trying to make though and that's an interesting perspective and something I'll have to keep in mind. I will admit that I personally may have difficulties with this approach because I tend to be *very* literal: If you tell me something, I will hold you to whatever it was you said exactly as you worded it. This has more to do with me being an Aspergerian than me being an ISFJ though.

 

[skylights]

To be fair, I think you might be overstating how much we observe your actions. Certainly we do note your individual actions but whats more important to us is how it fits in to the overall pattern of behavior you have toward us. You leaning in to hug your boyfriend, if you've always been warm and affectionate with him, would only be noted as a behavior thats consistent with your actions thus far. The only time I could see it as being something of concern is if you are normally very cold to him (of which I sorely doubt you are ) at which case your behavior would be out of the ordinary so we would be left puzzling why you did that and trying to figure out what your angle or pattern is.

Ah ok, that makes sense. It's like a blip in the pattern.

I've heard this expressed before, that you didn't intend for an action to result in something and I actually got into a heated argument with my INxx-ex girlfriend (I'm starting to suspect she was an INFP). She always seemed to act like that just because she didn't intend on doing something somehow absolved her of the action itself. I told her that while a persons intentions are very important, they still have to take responsibility for whatever actions may have resulted from their mishap. I wouldn't hold it against her if she didn't intend on harming me but that didn't change the fact that she did do harm to me. You may have not intended on breaking the cookie jar...but you still broke it...and we still have a broken cookie jar that needs to be fixed. I felt like she needed to own up to that (not to breaking a cookie jar, but rather the principle I was getting at) .She didn't agree with me. To me, this is a basic tenet of being a responsible adult.

Looking back though, I think I was projecting my own sense of responsibility onto her and expecting her to share that. That's not entirely fair.

I suspect this was a Fi-Fe conflict more than anything.

Oh, interesting. Yeah, that sounds right. My boyfriend and I have argued over "assuming responsibility" before, because to me it's just like, okay, well we have a broken jar now, let's just get this thing up ASAP, but he wants me to say that I'm the one who's messed up, and it drives me crazy because I feel like there are always multiple determining factors in any situation. I always apologize, but him wanting me to claim responsibility tends to feel like a blame game to me. I do feel responsibility and definitely make a big effort to address my personal issues when they lead to a bad situation, but I hate having to state to the world that it was "my fault" when I feel like that's a major oversimplification of a situation that is inevitably caused by more than just me. I mean, if I forget plane tickets or something, that is my fault, and I will say that. But if it's a misunderstanding, that always involves one person speaking in a certain way and one person listening in a certain way, and it's really ultimately both of their "fault" if a misunderstanding occurs.

Now I generally try to just claim fault in the interest of harmony, but I don't really understand why he needs me to state that I'm the problem when it's almost always far more complex than one person's doing. If I didn't know him better I would say it seemed like he was just trying to boost his ego, but he's not like that. So I don't really understand it. If I lay claim to having created the situation... what does it change about the situation? Nothing... I'm going to do my best to fix it anyway...

I can understand that and I'm sorry she didn't. Did you ever tell her that you just wanted her to be there? Have you talked to her about this since then?

Thanks And yeah, we talked about it a couple of years ago. She apologized and explained that providing has always been the best way she knows how to help, and she doesn't feel like she's very good at sitting and talking about emotions. She's also sort of ADHD, lol, so it's hard for her to just sit and not do. And my dad (INTP) has always been reserved and hands-off, so he never really did that kind of support, either. My brother (ISTP) and boyfriend (ISFJ) still don't do the Fi thing, but they will just sit and hang, so now I just go to them if I feel that need.

I think there are better ways of looking at this as what you said I think is a misunderstanding of our actions

1) It's not that we don't leave room for things (this to me implies we're closed minded) but rather it's that we don't need too. Our experience and knowledge of the situation is what usually dictates our actions in that situation and if you're reacting in a way that's very consistent with an experience we've had before...odds are we're going to gravitate to that assumption.

In other words: If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...I'm not going to immediately assume a geese.

Yes, right, exactly. I didn't mean to imply you're closed minded, just that Fe and Te can act on whatever information is available and can continue acting even when new information presents itself - because the chances are the new information will continue to be consistent with the existing information. We discover it has tail feathers: still can behave as if we are dealing with a duck.

I think it would fair to you Fi-users though if we Fe-users tried very hard not to jump to conclusions and try to analyze the situation first.

2) The "responsibility" we feel may be something that exists in our own heads. Highlander pointed out that it seemed more important to Fe users to understand Fi users than it is to them that they are understood and this is something I hadn't really considered before. I always assumed that people really want me to understand them as best they can, it never occured to me that understanding them may be more important to ME than it is to them. This means we may be projecting what we think we should be doing on to you and getting frustrated when we can't because of you going about your business and being all Fi and stuff That's our problem, and not yours.

That is probably very true! I kind of assume that most people won't get me. I don't really need that out of most people - just my close family and friends. From other people respect and kindness is most important.

That sounds reasonable...but I'm not sure if I agree or disagree (mostly because I'm not familiar enough with the subject matter to make a judgement on it)

I can agree to that.

Can we haz truce now?

Oh! Well of course. I thought we already did. I don't see Fe-Fi as a conflict, really. Just lines in the sand...

I have a few examples...but they're all very personal and frankly something I'm tired of ruminating over.

I understand.

As I said in your above example, unless you're behavior was consistently something different than what you were saying your hug wouldn't seem at all out of the ordinary.

That being said I do understand the point you're trying to make though and that's an interesting perspective and something I'll have to keep in mind. I will admit that I personally may have difficulties with this approach because I tend to be *very* literal: If you tell me something, I will hold you to whatever it was you said exactly as you worded it. This has more to do with me being an Aspergerian than me being an ISFJ though.

Mm, that makes sense.

 

[tinker683]

Oh, interesting. Yeah, that sounds right. My boyfriend and I have argued over "assuming responsibility" before, because to me it's just like, okay, well we have a broken jar now, let's just get this thing up ASAP, but he wants me to say that I'm the one who's messed up, and it drives me crazy because I feel like there are always multiple determining factors in any situation. I always apologize, but him wanting me to claim responsibility tends to feel like a blame game to me. I do feel responsibility and definitely make a big effort to address my personal issues when they lead to a bad situation, but I hate having to state to the world that it was "my fault" when I feel like that's a major oversimplification of a situation that is inevitably caused by more than just me. I mean, if I forget plane tickets or something, that is my fault, and I will say that. But if it's a misunderstanding, that always involves one person speaking in a certain way and one person listening in a certain way, and it's really ultimately both of their "fault" if a misunderstanding occurs.

Now I generally try to just claim fault in the interest of harmony, but I don't really understand why he needs me to state that I'm the problem when it's almost always far more complex than one person's doing. If I didn't know him better I would say it seemed like he was just trying to boost his ego, but he's not like that. So I don't really understand it. If I lay claim to having created the situation... what does it change about the situation? Nothing... I'm going to do my best to fix it anyway...

Hah! You sound just my ex! I'm starting to really think she WAS an INFP...

After some thought the best conclusion I can draw at the moment about the whole responsibility thing is that it's a combination of a)projecting our own values on to you (and therefore expecting you to share it) and b) some sort of display that you are acknowledging to us that you're not being careless with our feelings.

About A) This really isn't your problem and I haven't quite discerned whether this is a maturity/how-we-are-when-we're-healthy thing or just a flaw with Fe-users in general as I see many posters on this forum having similar issues with SFJs. Maybe an Si-Fe thing? Bottom line, I need to stop projecting my values onto other people close to me.

About B: Maybe it's because we get taken advantage by so many people, maybe it's because it's important to me that my SO respect my feelings or maybe it's for some other reason but: It's important to me that my partner demonstrate to me that she is sensitive about my feelings and my needs and for some reason that expectation only seems to extend to my SO and my parents. Everyone else in the whole bloody world I will go out of my way, give far more benefit of the doubt, let them get away with a lot more than I would my parents or my SO. My ex noted this paradox to me once. I'm not entirely certain as to the true reasons and motivations behind this but the best I've come up is, because I'm so much vulnerable with my SO and my parents, I therefore bruise a lot easier when they hurt my feelings. With my friends, colleagues, coworkers, etc... I don't really expect that much from them so if they do something careless, it's not the big production that if my SO hurts me it becomes.

I do however expect a lot more from my SO and from my parents so when they do something to hurt me and they seem very slow to accept responsibility or correct the behavior (particularly if a pattern starts to form) then it makes me feel like they're not taking me or my feelings as seriously as I'd like them too. Mind you this does ease up considerably once I've really gotten to know them intimately and find out all their little quirks. Then the things that used to irritate me become endearing

Maybe it's a self-esteem thing?

Thanks And yeah, we talked about it a couple of years ago. She apologized and explained that providing has always been the best way she knows how to help, and she doesn't feel like she's very good at sitting and talking about emotions. She's also sort of ADHD, lol, so it's hard for her to just sit and not do. And my dad (INTP) has always been reserved and hands-off, so he never really did that kind of support, either. My brother (ISTP) and boyfriend (ISFJ) still don't do the Fi thing, but they will just sit and hang, so now I just go to them if I feel that need.

Really? That's interesting, sitting around and talking about feelings is something I'm really good at! Different strokes I guess. Still, it's good she apologized and tried to make amends and I'm glad she clarified that for you. I hope she's better about it now.

Yes, right, exactly. I didn't mean to imply you're closed minded, just that Fe and Te can act on whatever information is available and can continue acting even when new information presents itself - because the chances are the new information will continue to be consistent with the existing information. We discover it has tail feathers: still can behave as if we are dealing with a duck.

I didn't think you were implying that at all, I just threw that in there as I or someone could interpret that statement in that way. And I agree completely. Fe (or maybe just Si-Fe) just seems to have a more stubborn time adopting new information and I wonder why that is...

I'd like to take this time to thank you and Highlander (I'd mention him but I've yet to get that stupid feature working right so I just gave up) for your continued thoughts and time on this thread and to once again apologize to Giggly-chan for making this thread less than fun for her

 

[skylights]

Hah! You sound just my ex! I'm starting to really think she WAS an INFP...

After some thought the best conclusion I can draw at the moment about the whole responsibility thing is that it's a combination of a)projecting our own values on to you (and therefore expecting you to share it) and b) some sort of display that you are acknowledging to us that you're not being careless with our feelings.

About A) This really isn't your problem and I haven't quite discerned whether this is a maturity/how-we-are-when-we're-healthy thing or just a flaw with Fe-users in general as I see many posters on this forum having similar issues with SFJs. Maybe an Si-Fe thing? Bottom line, I need to stop projecting my values onto other people close to me.

About B: Maybe it's because we get taken advantage by so many people, maybe it's because it's important to me that my SO respect my feelings or maybe it's for some other reason but: It's important to me that my partner demonstrate to me that she is sensitive about my feelings and my needs and for some reason that expectation only seems to extend to my SO and my parents. Everyone else in the whole bloody world I will go out of my way, give far more benefit of the doubt, let them get away with a lot more than I would my parents or my SO. My ex noted this paradox to me once. I'm not entirely certain as to the true reasons and motivations behind this but the best I've come up is, because I'm so much vulnerable with my SO and my parents, I therefore bruise a lot easier when they hurt my feelings. With my friends, colleagues, coworkers, etc... I don't really expect that much from them so if they do something careless, it's not the big production that if my SO hurts me it becomes.

I do however expect a lot more from my SO and from my parents so when they do something to hurt me and they seem very slow to accept responsibility or correct the behavior (particularly if a pattern starts to form) then it makes me feel like they're not taking me or my feelings as seriously as I'd like them too. Mind you this does ease up considerably once I've really gotten to know them intimately and find out all their little quirks. Then the things that used to irritate me become endearing

Maybe it's a self-esteem thing?

Actually I share that - might be an Sx thing, too. I'm glad that I'm not the only one like this! I've had it pointed out, as well, that I am much "harder" on my SO and family, and it's because I care so much more about them and feel vulnerable to their value judgments of me, too. My personal way of being demanding is through Te, though, so it comes out as spiky accusations and cold analysis.

I figured out a long time ago that my ISFJ phrases things in different ways than I do. He would say "I have to do ____", and I would say, "No, you don't, not if you don't want to", and he would counter - "But I do want to". What I didn't understand was that he was phrasing duty associated with a value, where I would typically phrase feeling associated with a value. Perhaps this is a similar situation where you guys are thinking that if we cared, we would phrase it like you would. It's not that we don't care - it's just that we don't phrase it the same way. This: "some sort of display that you are acknowledging to us that you're not being careless with our feelings" makes a lot of sense to me - I would just never phrase it as "it's my fault" because that doesn't jive with the way I see things or the way I would go about working to ensure I don't hurt you in that way again.

Really? That's interesting, sitting around and talking about feelings is something I'm really good at! Different strokes I guess. Still, it's good she apologized and tried to make amends and I'm glad she clarified that for you. I hope she's better about it now.

Isn't it? Interesting how people who share some similar traits can be so different in other ways. And thank you! She is. I'm working on being better, too. I try to just wait and let her be a busy bee when she's up and buzzing and instead catch her when she's already down.

I didn't think you were implying that at all, I just threw that in there as I or someone could interpret that statement in that way. And I agree completely. Fe (or maybe just Si-Fe) just seems to have a more stubborn time adopting new information and I wonder why that is...

Oh, no, it's Ni-Fe, too. I think it's good, actually. Ne and Se are too breezy sometimes, just flitting around to whatever is the most novel instead of sticking with the set course, and we can end up never getting anywhere.

I'd like to take this time to thank you and Highlander (I'd mention him but I've yet to get that stupid feature working right so I just gave up) for your continued thoughts and time on this thread and to once again apologize to Giggly-chan for making this thread less than fun for her

You, too! I've really enjoyed this thread, and I keep learning new things!

I also apologize, Giggly

 

[tinker683]

Actually I share that - might be an Sx thing, too. I'm glad that I'm not the only one like this! I've had it pointed out, as well, that I am much "harder" on my SO and family, and it's because I care so much more about them and feel vulnerable to their value judgments of me, too. My personal way of being demanding is through Te, though, so it comes out as spiky accusations and cold analysis.

Yikes! Makes me wonder whats worse in this situation..Fe or Te?

I figured out a long time ago that my ISFJ phrases things in different ways than I do. He would say "I have to do ____", and I would say, "No, you don't, not if you don't want to", and he would counter - "But I do want to". What I didn't understand was that he was phrasing duty associated with a value, where I would typically phrase feeling associated with a value. Perhaps this is a similar situation where you guys are thinking that if we cared, we would phrase it like you would. It's not that we don't care - it's just that we don't phrase it the same way. This: "some sort of display that you are acknowledging to us that you're not being careless with our feelings" makes a lot of sense to me - I would just never phrase it as "it's my fault" because that doesn't jive with the way I see things or the way I would go about working to ensure I don't hurt you in that way again.

That's definitely a good thought and something I'll have to keep in mind.

Oh, no, it's Ni-Fe, too. I think it's good, actually. Ne and Se are too breezy sometimes, just flitting around to whatever is the most novel instead of sticking with the set course, and we can end up never getting anywhere.

Good to know, I was starting to worry this was an Si-Fe thing exclusively. And yeah I've noted the same thing about Ne and Se and I wonder if that's why Se-Ne users are drawn to Si-Ni users. We compliment each other well

You, too! I've really enjoyed this thread, and I keep learning new things!

I also apologize, Giggly

BIG HUG FOR GIGGLY-CHAN

 

[skylights]

And yeah I've noted the same thing about Ne and Se and I wonder if that's why Se-Ne users are drawn to Si-Ni users. We compliment each other well

[MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION]

 

[Giggly]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread so don't worry about me. I appreciate being called in for the hugs though.

 

[Redbone]

I understand what you are saying. There is value in expressing and communicating feelings in a way that other people understand obviously.

The problem is your bolded statement. I'm just stating that ISFJs on average tend to not understand INFPs particularly well (it's half belief/half conjecture). It doesn't assign blame. If the statement is true then it is a simple fact.

The problem with the view you are voicing here is that it is critical of people who don't comply with this "standard" you are referring to. Therefore, those who do not comply with the standard ARE being blamed. By you. It comes across as a negative judgment of the other person vs. understanding and accepting them for who they are.

Good thread (it helped me figure out that my ex-husband is really an ISFJ and not ESFJ...and understand him a lot better). I appreciate the ISFJs sharing how they see things.

My ex said that point out the 'should' is like pointing out the sky is blue. It's so obvious, why bring it up he says? So when I didn't 'comply' he filled in the blanks with auto-responses e.g. 'she's not smiling so she's not happy' 'she doesn't give me compliments/feedback so that means she hates what I did'. Not true but he didn't know that because he made assumptions based on standards that I do not follow. He literally thought that everyone thinks like him so why ask ( I think every type is guilty of this to some degree). I did the same and it didn't end well. I'm glad we are able to talk about it a little more now.

Communication can help a lot with that and accepting that those standards, no matter how "normal" they seem do not have universal application. [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] and her ISFJ seem to be very good at this...does it cause you stress to communicate in ways that your ISFJ understands? You may have said so...but I haven't read the whole thread yet.

 

[skylights]

My ex said that point out the 'should' is like pointing out the sky is blue. It's so obvious, why bring it up he says? So when I didn't 'comply' he filled in the blanks with auto-responses e.g. 'she's not smiling so she's not happy' 'she doesn't give me compliments/feedback so that means she hates what I did'. Not true but he didn't know that because he made assumptions based on standards that I do not follow. He literally thought that everyone thinks like him so why ask ( I think every type is guilty of this to some degree).

Absolutely.

Communication can help a lot with that and accepting that those standards, no matter how "normal" they seem do not have universal application. [MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION] and her ISFJ seem to be very good at this...does it cause you stress to communicate in ways that your ISFJ understands? You may have said so...but I haven't read the whole thread yet.

Well, in everyday terms, we have always communicated very fluently, enough so that it was one of the factors that brought us together in the beginning. We share some sort of values-based idealism and a similar aesthetic appreciation that I have yet to completely understand and probably goes far beyond the language of type, in addition to fairly similar backgrounds. Through much of our relationship I feel like I have been learning how we are using different words to discuss the same concepts, and once that knowledge is there, everything flows more smoothly, as it's just a matter of shifting language until I hit on the right words and phrases. So far I have dramatically increased my language bank in terms of specific/formal place names, event names, organization names, etc...

It's generally when either of us is already stressed or when we are both frustrated with each other that the communication differences tend to rear their heads, and I've been learning what tends to make me feel more stressed (him being very Si-heavy or Ti-heavy) and what tends to make him feel more stressed (me being very Ne-heavy or not thinking in Fe terms). However, it's also been a huge positive in my life, because my family is ESFJ, INTP, and ISTP - all Fe/Ti - and learning to communicate better with my ISFJ has also improved my communication with all of my family members.

The stress of it, it seems, is much akin to learning a new language - very stressful at first, and embarrassing as I stumble and create misunderstandings, but increasingly automatic and well-worth the resulting ease of communication. He, too, is learning Fi-Te. The most pleasing of all is when we can wield our personal native strengths in the external world to benefit the other while still being able to communicate fluidly between us.

I think that we have gotten lucky because he is solution-seeking, patient, and devoted, and I am sx-hyperattached and very interested in interpersonal differences, so between the two of us we typically manage to talk about and work through our communication differences. Our biggest hurdle is probably that he is very much a 9w1 idealistic peacemaker while I am very much a 6w7 proactive analyzer, and I tend to tear open and bare problem spots while he would much rather try to heal them and minimize them - I tend to get angry at him when he doesn't want to discuss our issues, letting them persist, and he tends to get angry at me when I want to rip into our issues, igniting them. We have to strike a balance of being progressively positive, but not inflammatory or reluctant, to satisfy both of our needs.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Hi tinker.

What a great thread. I appreciate you and am so grateful for all you have shared and your patience to express it.

And I know this stuff isn't fun for ISFJ's - you all deserve hugs because I know you all want to love others the way they want to be loved. [MENTION=10312]Tabula[/MENTION], [MENTION=4398]Giggly[/MENTION] -

What prompted this WHOLE mini-debate we'e been having was my response to an INFP stating that her ISFJ mom "didn't get her". I had responded that this was a sediment that I often read about Intuitives who have ISFJ parents and I had stated, (REPEATEDLY NOW) that we can only work with the information we're given and all these Intuitives need to own up to the possibility that they themselves have some responsibility in why this continues to happen.

I agree we do have a responsibility to help ourselves be understood. With my example, there's context of course - an adult and a child. To expect a child to be able to articulate - with justification - the emotions they feel is somewhat unrealistic. I'm 45 and I am still working on trying to set healthier patterns with my Si dom parents, patterns where I am in an adult role and not a child whose emotional reactions need to be corrected and judged or a child whose competence is always being measured and assessed. Those old scripts are hard to update, even in my own head.

An ISFJ mom and ISTJ Dad - lots of standards via Te and Fe. And I've learned so much from them that I consider myself very fortunate in many ways, so I am not trying to minimize what I owe them for that and for being my parents and their loyalty to me.

I really love this one-sided special treatment that you almost seem to be implying that Fi-users should get. As an Fe-user I should have to be more accommodating but they're not required to understand and recognize just how confusing they may be presenting themselves and work to try and better that? Does that seem fair to you?

I've heard this often in my life. I think it boils down to the fact that as an INFP I don't use my emotions as a tool, and the thread took this turn after this post of yours so I am grateful it did.

I just feel what I feel. To be true to myself and help myself process those emotions I need to feel them. When they come out into the external world, I'm not using them on you to get you to do something. Does that make sense?

The problem comes when we're being accused of not understanding you guys. If you yourselves aren't even aware of how it is you really feel about something, then how in the world am I supposed too? I'm doing the best I've got with what you're giving me. Telling me "you just don't understand me" feels unfair to me in this respect.

For me, I know how I feel and likely could express it. It's more about my feelings being judged when they come out because they may not match the intensity you expect or come out in the manner you expect. And again, it's about assuming I am using those emotions as some kind of communication device, that I have an intention in expressing them. I don't. Emotions for me are not a tool I use to get someone to do something. If I cry, it's because I am sad, not because I want you to comfort me. I may desire to be comforted in my sadness, but I don't let the tears come so I will get comforted. Does that make sense?

I could share examples from my childhood (because I cried a lot haha.) There were times when I was not comforted by my parents because the reason I was crying was not 'good enough' or 'appropriate'. Or the time was not 'appropriate'. Or I was crying 'too much' or 'too loud' or for 'too long' or 'too easily' ... This creates a lot of confusion for an Fi dom child I think. ("I cry and sometimes I get a hug, sometimes I do not. Why?") And I could also feel how much my tears would annoy my parents, that internal gauge of their state, which led me to believe I was bad for being who I was because I annoyed them. (In retrospect, I realize that their internal state was affected by more than just me in the moment, but hey, I was little, cut me some slack on that!) So for me, it simply became easier to not express my feelings out loud because they were used as a tool against me, used to mock me when my frustration bubbled out in tears, used to shame me when I behaved in inappropriate ways when I was supposed to 'know better'.

I don't think Fi-users really understand JUST how perceptive Fe-users are. We are observing every action, deed, and thing you say and not just what you say but HOW you say it and the inflection and tone you use. I said this once before and I'll say it again: People have no idea how much of themselves they give away not just in what they say and do but what they don't say and do. It's from these external queues that we read you.

And that's what I learned NOT to do: give out any external cues because I was tired of being misread and more so, tired of being judged and having my emotions used against me. And I should add, to give out the 'right' cues. The ones that kept everyone happy ...

I'm willing to concede and that I and perhaps other Fe-users (though I won't claim to speak for them) tend to project onto the world how it is that we think the world ought to be and I can see why that would be frustrating for Fi-users who follow the 'beat of their own drum' as it were. Here we are projecting our world views, telling everyone how things should be, and you guys feel like you're being told you're a part of a system you didn't sign on for or necessarily agree with! I imagine we come off as as sanctimonious or self-righteous at best and tyrannical at worst.

That's big of you and I appreciate you saying that.

If I'm understanding you correctly and please correct me if I'm not, you're stating that Thinking types or NFPs don't use emotions as a communication tool. Fair enough. If this is true, then how do you choose to communicate your needs and if your response is "verbal" then how I am, as an Fe-type, to construe your words when they don't match your actions?

You've re-articulated that well. I will expand it to say that Fi users in general will not use emotions as a tool to further a goal with other people. I don't know the answer for ISFJ's though to break through on that. I do know you don't get an internal gauge on these things and that's what I use to discern such things.

I would simply say that I have learned it is my responsibility to communicate what I need to you, rather than expecting you to know what I need. I will feel 'dirty' to use emotions to get it though. Using emotion in this way feels improper or 'bad' to me, because that's the way I am wired. If anything, you could try to just be logical and unemotional in tone to help us get our feelings out in the open and feel safe to do so.

kk hope this helps add to the discussion. I love my parents and I'm not sharing my history here for any reason other than to help everyone learn something from it. Don't feel bad for me, because for whatever reason, this is the stuff I am here to learn about and grow from, so I am grateful for all that I have experienced and learned about myself and others.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Heh I just thought of this too:

If I'm understanding you correctly and please correct me if I'm not, you're stating that Thinking types or NFPs don't use emotions as a communication tool. Fair enough. If this is true, then how do you choose to communicate your needs and if your response is "verbal" then how I am, as an Fe-type, to construe your words when they don't match your actions?

You look for words to match actions as your measure of consistency, maybe even authenticity. I look for your internal emotional state to match your outer one to measure that same thing. So for me, there's so often this mismatch when I feel your internal irritation for example but see your outer politeness. To me, that was a difficult thing to reconcile, that people act nice but don't think nice.

Your measure is that the external consistency is more important. To me, the inner consistency is more important.

Interesting difference, eh?

 

[tinker683]

Hi tinker.

Y helo thar

What a great thread. I appreciate you and am so grateful for all you have shared and your patience to express it.

And I know this stuff isn't fun for ISFJ's - you all deserve hugs because I know you all want to love others the way they want to be loved.

You're welcome, although looking back on the thread I feel I was much harsher and/or judgmental than I needed to be. I was trying to get a point across and I've been told I can be exceedingly blunt to the point of being hurtful and while I try not to be, it does happen. So I'm sorry if anyone reading this thread felt I was being abrasive.

Skylights and I seemed to have reached an understanding and one I'm grateful for and you seem to be echoing a lot of her sediments which is very helpful for me

I agree we do have a responsibility to help ourselves be understood. With my example, there's context of course - an adult and a child. To expect a child to be able to articulate - with justification - the emotions they feel is somewhat unrealistic. I'm 45 and I am still working on trying to set healthier patterns with my Si dom parents, patterns where I am in an adult role and not a child whose emotional reactions need to be corrected and judged or a child whose competence is always being measured and assessed. Those old scripts are hard to update, even in my own head.

Of course, and I hope I didn't come off as implying that whatever 'standard' I spoke of applied to children. As the risk of sound very SJ-like or Fe-like, children have their own set of rules I think

An ISFJ mom and ISTJ Dad - lots of standards via Te and Fe. And I've learned so much from them that I consider myself very fortunate in many ways, so I am not trying to minimize what I owe them for that and for being my parents and their loyalty to me.

Oh wow, that must have been an experience. My dad is an ENFP and my Mom is an IxFJ so I had a similar background back from the opposite direction: I often found myself being puzzled by my parents behavior.

I've heard this often in my life. I think it boils down to the fact that as an INFP I don't use my emotions as a tool, and the thread took this turn after this post of yours so I am grateful it did.

I just feel what I feel. To be true to myself and help myself process those emotions I need to feel them. When they come out into the external world, I'm not using them on you to get you to do something. Does that make sense?

It does, but I would like to clarify something: It isn't necessarily that Fe-users think that you're trying to 'put anything on to them' or to make some sort of request to us but rather that you're attempting to communicate some sort of need. As such, when you do express an emotion, we think there is something you're trying to communicate to us (after all, if you're sad then there must be a reason while you're sad and we want to address that reason).

Whether we not we actually want to respond to you is another matter altogether.

For me, I know how I feel and likely could express it. It's more about my feelings being judged when they come out because they may not match the intensity you expect or come out in the manner you expect. And again, it's about assuming I am using those emotions as some kind of communication device, that I have an intention in expressing them. I don't. Emotions for me are not a tool I use to get someone to do something. If I cry, it's because I am sad, not because I want you to comfort me. I may desire to be comforted in my sadness, but I don't let the tears come so I will get comforted. Does that make sense?

It does, and I think this touches on something Skylights said about her ISFJ being solution-oriented: I think Fe/Te-users in general are solution oriented so when you do express an emotion to us, we assume that's there is something you need. Why it is we come to this particular conclusion and why we often feel compelled to do something about it is something I do not yet understand myself.

I could share examples from my childhood (because I cried a lot haha.) There were times when I was not comforted by my parents because the reason I was crying was not 'good enough' or 'appropriate'. Or the time was not 'appropriate'. Or I was crying 'too much' or 'too loud' or for 'too long' or 'too easily' ... This creates a lot of confusion for an Fi dom child I think. ("I cry and sometimes I get a hug, sometimes I do not. Why?") And I could also feel how much my tears would annoy my parents, that internal gauge of their state, which led me to believe I was bad for being who I was because I annoyed them. (In retrospect, I realize that their internal state was affected by more than just me in the moment, but hey, I was little, cut me some slack on that!) So for me, it simply became easier to not express my feelings out loud because they were used as a tool against me, used to mock me when my frustration bubbled out in tears, used to shame me when I behaved in inappropriate ways when I was supposed to 'know better'.

Ouch, that's harsh I'm sorry to hear that

And that's what I learned NOT to do: give out any external cues because I was tired of being misread and more so, tired of being judged and having my emotions used against me. And I should add, to give out the 'right' cues. The ones that kept everyone happy ...

I could see how this would be incredibly difficult for you and I'm sorry you've had to do this. It's not fair to you.

I recall you mentioning before that you were married to an ESTJ. How does he handle all of this?

I might also like to point out that even though you're not trying to give off cues, you are always giving off cues whether you want too or not. It's not just what you say and do that communicates your needs to us, its what you DON'T say and do that communicates that as well

Or at least that's been my experience. Even the most emotionally distant people I've ever met give off very subtle hints and clues about themselves and their needs, even if it takes an extended period of time to do it in.

That's big of you and I appreciate you saying that.

Thank you, but I'm just trying to be as honest as I can. I know I can be incredibly stubborn and rigid but I don't want to be. I want to understand and know you guys better. My INxx and I may have had a bad relationship and we argued a lot because of poor communication but I loved her dearly and I still feel some guilt over all the times I misunderstood her and caused her a lot of un-needed stress. I wish to avoid that in the future.

You've re-articulated that well. I will expand it to say that Fi users in general will not use emotions as a tool to further a goal with other people. I don't know the answer for ISFJ's though to break through on that. I do know you don't get an internal gauge on these things and that's what I use to discern such things.

I'd say you did a fair job breaking through on that just now

But no, I'd say it's something an each individual Fe-user is going to need to learn on their own and for themselves. I suspect this is just one of those things we need to learn as we grow.

I would simply say that I have learned it is my responsibility to communicate what I need to you, rather than expecting you to know what I need.

YES! This would be enormously appreciative.

I will feel 'dirty' to use emotions to get it though. Using emotion in this way feels improper or 'bad' to me, because that's the way I am wired. If anything, you could try to just be logical and unemotional in tone to help us get our feelings out in the open and feel safe to do so.

Intellectually I can understand that but as an Fe-user this sounds silly to me (but then, it should, because that's how *I* am wired). You make it sound as if you're attempting to manipulate us but thats not the case. Te-users I think would probably prefer the logical, unemotional approach but for some reason I respond stronger to displays of emotion. I don't know why.

kk hope this helps add to the discussion. I love my parents and I'm not sharing my history here for any reason other than to help everyone learn something from it. Don't feel bad for me, because for whatever reason, this is the stuff I am here to learn about and grow from, so I am grateful for all that I have experienced and learned about myself and others.

It did, and likewise