[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Getting to the POINT

[Ene]

I am becoming more and more aware of just how non-Fi dom I really am and to tell the truth, sometimes I have to cut and paste Fi-dom posts and take them apart in order to try to get to the heart of what is being said [and that takes so much time, that I have a hard time posting replies to a lot of what is said here] and to my utter amazement, there often is no “point” or 'heart' of the matter and I get a bit frustrated because I feel like it is aimless wandering, but of course, it's not. I have discovered this with my INFP friend in real life; she often spends a long time telling me about something. I keep waiting for the point, but there is no point. She is just sharing an experience with me. Maybe that is more a P thing than an Fi thing. I don’t know.

Is it an NiFe thing that I feel there needs to be a purpose for what is being said, that it needs to be leading up to something, to produce something or is it a result of the J-function? Or is it a Te quality that I need for things to "produce something of substance" that I can somehow utilize and make sense of?

 

[garbage]

I also find myself wanting people to get to the damn point.

Where it comes from? From one of many perspectives, I'll chalk it up to J-ness.

 

[Ene]

Thank you, Bologna. At least I know it's "not just me".

 

[violet_crown]

Maybe preference for Je over Ji? Personally, I don't mind structuring a "point" out of available information. With that same Fi-dom wall o' text. I'd consider what prompted the text, where they were apparently trying to get with it, and try to clarify whether that was actually their purpose. I take for granted, though, that most people don't have as clear of a vision of their end point as I do, so I try to meet them where they are.

I get a lot more frustrated with Ne-doms who are adamant about shifting the bottom line as they go along. I absolutely despise debating with ENTPs for that reason. Their standard strategy is to use Ti to corral you into debating something inane about some irrelevant sub-point that you honestly couldn't give two shits about, and claim they've won once you concede on it. I'd honestly rather a pedicure from a stonefish.

 

[WALMART]

You are not alone.


I like telling little stories about things, but I'd like to think I'm pretty quick in my delivery, knowing where the bread and butter lies. Interesting note about it being Fi related, Fi+Ne on top of that.


This is my wall of text, apparently: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56918&p=1902087&viewfull=1#post1902087

LOL.

 

[Rasofy]

Why does everything said must have a point? Life itself may not have one.

/pointless post

 

[Galena]

I relate, too, and have been known to pick out the visible "points" and discard the rest. But on the other hand, I don't. The idea of not ever doing or saying anything without an objective makes me queasy.

 

[garbage]

Also: I was once told that I'm too wordy on this forum. I have no clue how that's true.

Why I bring it up is that--I guess people have different standards on "pointedness"?

Why does everything said must have a point? Life itself may not have one.

Good point.

Maybe preference for Je over Ji? Personally, I don't mind structuring a "point" out of available information.

True 'nuff. It's always worth asking, "What, if anything, can I squeeze out of this sponge of information?"

 

[skylights]

As someone who generally takes a good amount of verbal output to get where I'm going -

Perhaps you're just not seeing what the purpose of their communication is when you feel like that. Sometimes I find people who are very joking or long-winded to be frustrating, but the joker generally jokes to create a fun atmosphere, or to prompt unusual responses, and the long-winded people sometimes need to speak for a while before they can phrase it accurately enough to satisfy them, or they enjoy the expression or conversation. I got frustrated in an INFP thread recently because the point of it was very unclear to me, but to other users there it was a comprehensible and satisfying discussion. Last night I was trying to explain the "feel" of a memory to my boyfriend, and the point of it was far more difficult than I could realistically achieve, as I was hoping he'd understand the same feelings and feel inspired and nostalgic in the same way. I could barely even articulate it.

I get a lot more frustrated with Ne-doms who are adamant about shifting the bottom line as they go along.

I can understand that. It's not to fuck with you, it's just the way we amalgamate information. I wish I had the gift of going into things decided, but almost everything is a journey of discovery. Every post for me is like that. I write it, but I restructure as I'm writing, as I discover better lines of thought to run on. I edit for organization after the thoughts pour out, not before or during, as I really struggle trying to organize them in my head - feels like a giant bowl of alphabet soup. Unfortunately, it's impossible to go back and edit speech! That said, ENTPs are notoriously trolly debaters.

@Ene, if you're Ni-dom and you're looking at Pe information, I could understand why it could be aggravating. For us, the more information that's added, the better. I have decent Te and I like a nice clear structure, but I almost always prefer more information to less, as that gives me the opportunity to sort and choose what is most important, distilling it for myself. Strong Ni users seem to prefer more concise information, from which they can draw context out in many different directions. I struggle to do that and find it frustrating. On the other hand, I imagine that for a Ni user, too much information is aggravating.

 

[Society]

So if something cant be summarized in a one liner it is pointless?

 

[PeaceBaby]

Sometimes the story is the point.

Nor am I interested in someone else distilling the point. Rather figure that out for myself.

 

[Thalassa]

It's a Ji versus Je thing. It's like the Ti wall of text, the Fi sharing of experience, or something.

And yes, stories do have a point, if you're not getting it, you've never learned to learn from other people's experiences.

Sometimes it is just sharing.

IxTJs I think are most likely to do the one-liner thing.

 

[Society]

Its being my understanding for sometime now that Js pay more attention to their Pi functions because those provide the most cohesive information structure and Ps pay more attention to their Pe because it provides the most stimulating information structure.

This might be an externalized version of the same need.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Here's a good example: my INTJ daughter or ESTJ husband will pronounce that person X or situation X is "stupid" or "ridiculous". Am I just supposed to accept that at face value? No. I need the story, I need to hear the details, I need to appreciate the context if I am going to provide any decent alternative or counter-point or solution to their judgement. I might agree with their assessment by the end, or provide a useful less "charged" viewpoint. At any rate, I want the details. I need the details.

Thus, when I tell a story, I tend to give the listener as much unbiased detail as I possibly can (and they can possibly take) because 1.) the point will be obvious by the end (and if it's not, the judgement in my head might be off because they didn't follow the story to the same conclusion) and 2.) I credit their ability to distill and judge my story for themselves based on the facts presented. It's a courtesy thing, in my mind. Naturally, I try to be concise and take into account who's doing the listening - some folks are better than others, and some folks want more details than others. Plus, I am sensitive, perhaps overly so, to the tones I receive while the listener is listening. Bad listening can throw me off.

NOW, that being said, my ISFP aunt and ESFP son can stretch even my listening capabilities (which, I assure you, are prodigious) so I hear your pain. They seldom do have a point either, but to them, the point is sharing and that in itself is intended to be bonding. So, I can get on board with that. Sometimes though, they stretch the boundaries of listening to the break point. Need to give the listener a rest, eh? Or get to the point quickly then backtrack. I can't always listen to the story for a whole hour in the middle of the day if there's no point, and it starts to take advantage of the listener. Always good to be appreciative of the listener!

So, expanding what I pithily typed above, sometimes the process of listening itself is the point, sometimes the story is the point, sometimes there is no point.

And also as above, I am not interested in someone else chewing my food for me, so I rather more raw, unprocessed sustenance (in the form of details) than less.

 

[Ene]

Wind-up Rex, Thanks for sharing. I identified very much with how shifting the bottom line as you go along can be perplexing.

Jontherobot, I loved your "clips" and found them helpful. Hmmm...I am really good friends with an ISTP in real life and I find that he is most often "to the point" and he often tells little stories, too.

Rasofy, so, um what's your point? Yep, everything said needs a point! haha...imagine going through a drive-thru window and ordering a burger. When you get the bag, you just keep digging through that thin paper that they wrap the food in, but all you find is paper, paper and more paper; so you keep digging and digging to find your burger, until you finally look up and say, "Hey, where's the beef?" [laughing as I type this] Well, sometimes in a conversation, I'm going, "Hey, where's beef?" I admit to being that way. I'm just trying to figure out what function is responsible for me being that way and which function is responsible for conversations wrapped in lots and lots of paper.

Mane: One liners rock! But no, that's not what I mean. It doesn't matter how MUCH a person says, just what one says. Length has little to do with it. I can be as long-winded as anybody. I'm not even saying that one way is better, only attempting to understand the causes for the differences.

I guess somewhere along the way I became one of those say-what-you-mean-and-mean-what-you-say kind of people. I'm just trying to figure out what makes me that way.

Perhaps you're just not seeing what the purpose of their communication is when you feel like that.

Yep, precisely.

long-winded people sometimes need to speak for a while before they can phrase it accurately enough to satisfy them, or they enjoy the expression or conversation.

Understood.

I got frustrated in an INFP thread recently because the point of it was very unclear to me, but to other users there it was a comprehensible and satisfying discussion.

That's what I gather from my INFP friend. I want so badly to say to her, "Oh, for cryin' out loud already...get to the point!" But then I look at her and realize that the

experience of telling

seems to be the point. And I don't do it, because it seems to do her good just to talk about pointless stuff.

Last night I was trying to explain the "feel" of a memory to my boyfriend, and the point of it was far more difficult than I could realistically achieve, as I was hoping he'd understand the same feelings and feel inspired and nostalgic in the same way. I could barely even articulate it.

So, maybe that's what my friend is trying to do? Get the "feel" of an experience across to me?

Ene, if you're Ni-dom and you're looking at Pe information, I could understand why it could be aggravating. For us, the more information that's added, the better.

Yeah, I'm beginning to see that and thanks for understanding.

I have decent Te and I like a nice clear structure, but I almost always prefer more information to less,

I don't know if it's an issue of more or less information as it is rambling as opposed to focused information.

Strong Ni users seem to prefer more concise information, from which they can draw context out in many different directions.

Yeah, you may have something there. I am a very strong Ni user.

I struggle to do that and find it frustrating. On the other hand, I imagine that for a Ni user, too much information is aggravating.

Hmmm....good point. haha...thanks.

 

[Infinite Bubble]

Ne users usually want to make sure nothing is left out and go on tangents a lot more; it likes to expand. The opposite is true for Ni. NTJs I assume would give the most to-the-point answers due to not only Ni but the urge to be efficient that Te gives. I personally actually have trouble giving more than a short answer and expanding on points because summing up comes so naturally.

 

[garbage]

I'm also a fan of

"Here's my point: [the point]

Here's why I think that: [long flippin' explanatory text here]"

Best of both worlds for me.

 

[Coriolis]

Why does everything said must have a point?

If It doesn't, why say it?

I also find myself wanting people to get to the damn point.

Where it comes from? From one of many perspectives, I'll chalk it up to J-ness.

One thing I hate is when I can tell what point someone is working up towards, but in an effort to be polite, I refrain from short-circuiting their account and give them the benefit of the doubt that perhaps I really don't know what they plan to say. Then, they proceed to say in the most longwinded manner possible exactly what I suspected they would. Makes me want to scream.

Also: I was once told that I'm too wordy on this forum. I have no clue how that's true.

Why I bring it up is that--I guess people have different standards on "pointedness"?

It's not the number of words, it's the word to content ratio. Use many words if you need them to develop your point; if paring them down would sacrifice meaning, don't. But don't say in 100 words what requires only 15.

Ne users usually want to make sure nothing is left out and go on tangents a lot more; it likes to expand. The opposite is true for Ni. NTJs I assume would give the most to-the-point answers due to not only Ni but the urge to be efficient that Te gives. I personally actually have trouble giving more than a short answer and expanding on points because summing up comes so naturally.

Te is also a big part of the translation mechanism from Ni to the outside world. I like to be concise, but also like to make sure I will be understood. I suspect my explanations are sometimes overkill as a result.

 

[Ene]

Infinite Bubble, Thank you. I asked [in the op],

Is it an NiFe thing that I feel there needs to be a purpose for what is being said, that it needs to be leading up to something, to produce something or is it a result of the J-function? Or is it a Te quality that I need for things to "produce something of substance" that I can somehow utilize and make sense of?

and you answered,

Ne users usually want to make sure nothing is left out and go on tangents a lot more; it likes to expand. The opposite is true for Ni. NTJs I assume would give the most to-the-point answers due to not only Ni but the urge to be efficient that Te gives. I personally actually have trouble giving more than a short answer and expanding on points because summing up comes so naturally

.

That is exactly what I was trying to sort out.

 

[PeaceBaby]

If you want a short answer, it's Je. Simplification of information in order to render judgment applicable to a "real world" scenario.

iow, it's practical to "get to the point".