THINGS SENSORS DO THAT INTUITIVES HATE

[Redbone]

Sensors and Intuitives both suck equally. Everyone sucks. The end.

It ain't over until we determine who sucks the best!

 

[skylights]

MBTI just gives people the excuse to stereotype and be critical of one another.

People will always look for excuses because it's easier than confronting the pain that lies inside - and the more they hate, the more their wounds show. At least the MBTI, being a neutral and symmetrical system in concept, also gives us the ability to fight back.

To examine Vilku's points:

the thing i most dislike about sensors are, that they dont help me progress at anything and are just on the way so i couldnt meet intuitors who would actually be useful to me. (isfp's occasionally do exception at this)

With no offense meant, if you can't learn from any Sensor, you're missing out on a HUGE amount of good information. Data isn't purely S or N. It's data, neutral data, and we read it via our S or N lenses. Just because a Sensor outputs data in S form doesn't mean it's not still good data. It just means you struggle to translate S -> N, minus perhaps in the case of ISFPs who share F-tinted Ni strong enough to come close to your native perception.

For a while I was under the impression that Sensorial data was somehow "less" information. It's not; it just seems that way to strong Ns because we don't comprehend the value of it. The problem is on our end, not theirs. So -

and the second reason, are monologues of this sort: "you know, today i saw a car. it was red, it has several windows and four black wheels! they had grey inner circle things, and the car was going faster than i could ever run! and and and, and i think and and it has a human driving it! the weather was pleasant, sun was beaming into my would be eyes werent it for my sunglasses. but oh! it was sunny! [...]

i would rather not exchange useless conversations.

Well, to begin with, let's make it sound a little more like a Sensor actually wrote it. Right now it sounds like an iNtuitive who is really poor at remembering sensory detail wrote it in the interest of mocking Ss, which is probably accurate. These two are based off what I think actual Sensors that I know might say:

ISFJ version: Today, while I was having lunch at Mel's Deli, I saw a 1958 red convertible classic Corvette, with a rounded windshield, white-wall tires, and chrome hub caps that looked newer than the rest of the car. It was keeping up in acceleration with the other cars on the road, and the guy driving it looked a little like my grandpa, kind of short and heavy with these bright happy eyes. It felt great outside, like Spring has finally come, but I was glad to have my sunglasses, since my eyes are so sensitive.

ISTP version: Hey, I saw a Lotus Exige in the gym parking lot today. It's about as big as Dad is, he'll never fit. He should really go for the Porsche instead. The red looked good, didn't show a lot of dirt. I can't imagine why anyone would put shitty Conti wheels on it, though - the driver tore it out of the lot and practically left a chunk of tire on the ground. The air was so hot you could smell the rubber from across the road, it was disgusting.

There is plenty of interesting content in either of those paragraphs, from the place to the type of car to its specs to the driver to the change of season to whether Dad can fit in a Lotus.

Compare "our nearest star imbuing its wrath upon us from afar", an N sort of thing to say. Why would you not just say "it's hot!"?

third reason is that you just dont seem real. its like your fictional characters, like npc's ingames.

It's sad to me that you feel like a good half if not more of the population seems unreal because they're cognitively less accessible to you. It's also odd that you see it as primarily their problem. Is it more likely that 3,500,000,000 people have a communication problem, or that you have one?

 

[Nicki]

It ain't over until we determine who sucks the best!

Ns are pretentious pseudo-intellectuals while Ss are boring idiots.

 

[Galena]

One time, I was sitting at a diner behind an ISFJ, and they chewed their food really loudly. >:C

 

[wildcat]

You may have misread the title; this is about Ns not liking things about Ss...

(heh heh. No, go on. I haven't heard the backstory to LOTR in at least a week)

An amusing chapter. I wonder who writes the school books ..

 

[Vilku]

Not really. This is just your assumption. There is nothing 'concrete' about it.






Such as how you use this theory to justify your prejudice? And personal approval isn't the only liable method of theorising. The theory of evolution has a great deal of readily observable evidence for it; if there was none, people would not give it any credibility at all. When it comes to theories of the mind however it does become more difficult.



Which is not what I was getting at. My point had nothing to do with whether a group or an individual approves something to themselves. However this is a great example of the point I WAS trying to make which is that the open interpretation of MBTI, when not approached sensibly, results in rampant generalisations and pigeon-holing of entire groups of people unfairly and inaccurately.

Also you can only claim that you follow your own view over others, nothing wrong with that; after all I don't advocate blind group approval myself, but you cannot claim that anything you have mentioned even comes close to the definition of scientific. Unless we're going to start arguing on the ever changing nature of words and their meanings, at which point this becomes an exercise in semantics.



I believe you do think this is correct. There is a really important point in this paragraph of yours "that ultimately all perspectives are wrong and the only correct one is that we are being used, and that the reality isnt a nice place."

Ironic isn't it? Because by your logic, this would make your perspective also wrong and therefore a paradox.



Yet you have analysed people enough to come to incredibly self-assured assertions about what is and isn't true concerning an intangible theory.

"
This is completely tautological and only holds true if everyone were exactly you. You cannot claim correctness only that you have an opinion."

um no. if i can see something, then so should everyone else, given they succeed at the task. thats how we sx so's do it, we have no opinions, we only have information. devoid of any personal interferances.

"Ironic isn't it? Because by your logic, this would make your perspective also wrong and therefore a paradox."
i dont know what semantics your going into, but the point was that we are all made to acquire pre-built-in perspectives that justify life, and the only truth is we are all slaves and if you can really see it in its full clarity, then youve destroyed the very illusions which keep you going the pre-built path, but there arent really any other paths, unless you call truth one, which is one of self destruction.

"
Yet you have analysed people enough to come to incredibly self-assured assertions about what is and isn't true concerning an intangible theory."

its tanglible to me, i see mbti as clear as i see the sun in the sky. to say mbti wasnt there is the same to say that we dont process information, and to say that is to say we dont poses any control over our bodies. and clearly as i look out of my window, i see people WALKING, i mean, can you believe that? there must be reasons why they are capable of walking, but its the stupidity of those who dont delve deeper that we think things work like MAGIC... no, people dont magically just walk. we have carefully built in intelligence that controls our control of these bodies, and i dont see any intanglibility in something which without we couldnt even walk.
[MENTION=10496]skylights[/MENTION]

"With no offense meant, if you can't learn from any Sensor, you're missing out on a HUGE amount of good information. Data isn't purely S or N. It's data, neutral data, and we read it via our S or N lenses. Just because a Sensor outputs data in S form doesn't mean it's not still good data. It just means you struggle to translate S -> N, minus perhaps in the case of ISFPs who share F-tinted Ni strong enough to come close to your native perception.

For a while I was under the impression that Sensorial data was somehow "less" information. It's not; it just seems that way to strong Ns because we don't comprehend the value of it. The problem is on our end, not theirs. So -"

perhaps, but it doesnt change the fact i cant seem to find anything useful there =/

 

[Vilku]

People will always look for excuses because it's easier than confronting the pain that lies inside - and the more they hate, the more their wounds show. At least the MBTI, being a neutral and symmetrical system in concept, also gives us the ability to fight back.

To examine Vilku's points:



With no offense meant, if you can't learn from any Sensor, you're missing out on a HUGE amount of good information. Data isn't purely S or N. It's data, neutral data, and we read it via our S or N lenses. Just because a Sensor outputs data in S form doesn't mean it's not still good data. It just means you struggle to translate S -> N, minus perhaps in the case of ISFPs who share F-tinted Ni strong enough to come close to your native perception.

For a while I was under the impression that Sensorial data was somehow "less" information. It's not; it just seems that way to strong Ns because we don't comprehend the value of it. The problem is on our end, not theirs. So -



Well, to begin with, let's make it sound a little more like a Sensor actually wrote it. Right now it sounds like an iNtuitive who is really poor at remembering sensory detail wrote it in the interest of mocking Ss, which is probably accurate. These two are based off what I think actual Sensors that I know might say:

ISFJ version: Today, while I was having lunch at Mel's Deli, I saw a 1958 red convertible classic Corvette, with a rounded windshield, white-wall tires, and chrome hub caps that looked newer than the rest of the car. It was keeping up in acceleration with the other cars on the road, and the guy driving it looked a little like my grandpa, kind of short and heavy with these bright happy eyes. It felt great outside, like Spring has finally come, but I was glad to have my sunglasses, since my eyes are so sensitive.

ISTP version: Hey, I saw a Lotus Exige in the gym parking lot today. It's about as big as Dad is, he'll never fit. He should really go for the Porsche instead. The red looked good, didn't show a lot of dirt. I can't imagine why anyone would put shitty Conti wheels on it, though - the driver tore it out of the lot and practically left a chunk of tire on the ground. The air was so hot you could smell the rubber from across the road, it was disgusting.

There is plenty of interesting content in either of those paragraphs, from the place to the type of car to its specs to the driver to the change of season to whether Dad can fit in a Lotus.

Compare "our nearest star imbuing its wrath upon us from afar", an N sort of thing to say. Why would you not just say "it's hot!"?



It's sad to me that you feel like a good half if not more of the population seems unreal because they're cognitively less accessible to you. It's also odd that you see it as primarily their problem. Is it more likely that 3,500,000,000 people have a communication problem, or that you have one?

"
ISFJ version: Today, while I was having lunch at Mel's Deli, I saw a 1958 red convertible classic Corvette, with a rounded windshield, white-wall tires, and chrome hub caps that looked newer than the rest of the car. It was keeping up in acceleration with the other cars on the road, and the guy driving it looked a little like my grandpa, kind of short and heavy with these bright happy eyes. It felt great outside, like Spring has finally come, but I was glad to have my sunglasses, since my eyes are so sensitive.

ISTP version: Hey, I saw a Lotus Exige in the gym parking lot today. It's about as big as Dad is, he'll never fit. He should really go for the Porsche instead. The red looked good, didn't show a lot of dirt. I can't imagine why anyone would put shitty Conti wheels on it, though - the driver tore it out of the lot and practically left a chunk of tire on the ground. The air was so hot you could smell the rubber from across the road, it was disgusting.

There is plenty of interesting content in either of those paragraphs, from the place to the type of car to its specs to the driver to the change of season to whether Dad can fit in a Lotus.

Compare "our nearest star imbuing its wrath upon us from afar", an N sort of thing to say. Why would you not just say "it's hot!"?
"

because its distastefully cliche andd inoriginal -.-

if i wish to exa´claim something ordinary, it has to be at least done in a way which would justify me wasting my breath.

and at those stories.. OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW................ THAATS......... ugh, how could you, you.. you seriously pay that much attention to their boring stories!?? =O

i just think their sensorian talk is torture. i want to hear something NEEEEEEW! =]

EDIT: oh wow, edit fail, came as a double post! =X

EDIT: and another reason why i wouldnt say "its hot!" is cause that would more than likely sound like sarcasm mock at their ways of exclamation, and i dont want to risk sensors coming with fists at me.

although im tempted, i would like to have a day when i just pretend to be an esfj without my comments becoming mockery, although esfj like. so far my esfj me is pretty damn racist, and i only pretend so in presence of istp's to create common ground.

but aww! =] the esfj's are so innocently stupid with their whole hearted stupid comments, so its only perfect for sarcasm to pretend one with not so innocent stupid comments.

 

[garbage]

but aww! =] the esfj's are so innocently stupid with their whole hearted stupid comments, so its only perfect for sarcasm to pretend one with not so innocent stupid comments.

quoting for posterity

 

[Ism]

So you noticed that...does this mean you're really a sensor?

No, no, I intuited the capslock in the title. See, my eyes work differently and in an inherently superior manner than those... non-intuitives.

When I saw the caps, not only did I see it, I saw the meaning and universal implications behind it. Sensors are not capable of these things.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I'm going to make fun of sensors here and then I bet a bunch of douches are going to be like "LOLOL U IZ STUPID SENSOR DONT GIMME DAT CRAP YOU EAT IT!"
(TiNi loop this haters)
Reason why sensors suck:
1. Stability leads to a lack of transformation.
2. Being trapped in the matrix leads to bondage.
3. Random spontaneity always trumps predictability.
4. A free mind can fly higher than a grounded mind.
5. The physical world is full of restrictions.
6. Imagination knows no bounds but the senses do.
7. Diversity in society leads to better developments.
8. Building a vision goes beyond what the eyes see.
9. Materialism will vanish in the eons to come.
10. It is best to sparkle like a shining star.

 

[ptgatsby]

An amusing chapter. I wonder who writes the school books ..

A group, no doubt, with no true form of consciousness. The final group that could not do. Those that look for a captured market to exploit.

 

[wildcat]

A group, no doubt, with no true form of consciousness. The final group that could not do. Those that look for a captured market to exploit.

Trash for money. I recall an awful book of biology, in the gymnasium. It was supposedly written in Finnish. You had to know Greek and Latin to comprehend the words. A dozen writers ..

 

[Flatlander]

Sensors hate that Intuitives, and Intuitives hate that Sensors:

1. Don't seem to acknowledge what's important about reality
2. Don't seem to get to the point

etc.

Despite different-seeming specifics, it's always going to be mutual. There will just be a counter-point to every point. What's the point of beating the bush, going in an infinite loop?

 

[skylights]

because its distastefully cliche andd inoriginal -.-

if i wish to exa´claim something ordinary, it has to be at least done in a way which would justify me wasting my breath.

and at those stories.. OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW................ THAATS......... ugh, how could you, you.. you seriously pay that much attention to their boring stories!?? =O

i just think their sensorian talk is torture. i want to hear something NEEEEEEW! =]

EDIT: oh wow, edit fail, came as a double post! =X

EDIT: and another reason why i wouldnt say "its hot!" is cause that would more than likely sound like sarcasm mock at their ways of exclamation, and i dont want to risk sensors coming with fists at me.

although im tempted, i would like to have a day when i just pretend to be an esfj without my comments becoming mockery, although esfj like. so far my esfj me is pretty damn racist, and i only pretend so in presence of istp's to create common ground.

but aww! =] the esfj's are so innocently stupid with their whole hearted stupid comments, so its only perfect for sarcasm to pretend one with not so innocent stupid comments.

perhaps, but it doesnt change the fact i cant seem to find anything useful there =/

I do understand that the way in which Sensors tend to present data can be distasteful to a strong N. A heavy flow of concrete data can be hard for us to keep up with; I understand what you feel in that regard. Heavy outpourings of Si or Se can be like a flood of data we don't have any storage space available for, so we have to either slosh through it, struggling to keep up, or wait until it's over, so we can try to make sense of it as a whole.

However, I think you may want to reconsider the value of S perception. Yes, it's raw, detailed, tangible, practical, and perhaps sometimes "boring" if you're more interested in theoretical pursuit. But without balance, N perception can lose grasp of reality so quickly that it becomes completely arbitrary, and even just factually completely wrong. Sensors offer Ns a huge gift in that they condense all the information that Ns tend to miss out on. Sensors can become extremely valuable people to discuss with once you understand the importance of their perception in balancing your own - their information improves your N understanding, because it forces you to fact-check your theories and concepts. The Sensors I know easily hold their own and often vastly increase my understanding in many topics because they add knowledge of real facts, events, things, processes, systems, places, and people to my conceptual viewpoint - not to mention they generally are expert at grasping how things work and how to get things done. Ss are not lacking in intelligence because of their perception style.

Secondly, regardless of whether you find their perception appealing or not, I don't think it's fair or even remotely accurate to call Ss "stupid" or be patronizing to them. What I don't understand is why you believe it's the Sensors' fault that their communication style is not easily dealt with by you, and how it makes them "stupid" - and how it makes it okay to insult them - because they may emphasize the things that you personally aren't interested in. If you struggle to grasp the importance of S information, then the one with a deficiency in understanding is you, not them. Moreover, it's unkind and unfair to insult anyone for a lack of intelligence, as no one chooses that.

 

[Randomnity]

"
ISFJ version: Today, while I was having lunch at Mel's Deli, I saw a 1958 red convertible classic Corvette, with a rounded windshield, white-wall tires, and chrome hub caps that looked newer than the rest of the car. It was keeping up in acceleration with the other cars on the road, and the guy driving it looked a little like my grandpa, kind of short and heavy with these bright happy eyes. It felt great outside, like Spring has finally come, but I was glad to have my sunglasses, since my eyes are so sensitive.

ISTP version: Hey, I saw a Lotus Exige in the gym parking lot today. It's about as big as Dad is, he'll never fit. He should really go for the Porsche instead. The red looked good, didn't show a lot of dirt. I can't imagine why anyone would put shitty Conti wheels on it, though - the driver tore it out of the lot and practically left a chunk of tire on the ground. The air was so hot you could smell the rubber from across the road, it was disgusting.

There is plenty of interesting content in either of those paragraphs, from the place to the type of car to its specs to the driver to the change of season to whether Dad can fit in a Lotus.

Compare "our nearest star imbuing its wrath upon us from afar", an N sort of thing to say. Why would you not just say "it's hot!"?
"

because its distastefully cliche andd inoriginal -.-

if i wish to exa´claim something ordinary, it has to be at least done in a way which would justify me wasting my breath.

and at those stories.. OWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW................ THAATS......... ugh, how could you, you.. you seriously pay that much attention to their boring stories!?? =O

i just think their sensorian talk is torture. i want to hear something NEEEEEEW! =]

EDIT: oh wow, edit fail, came as a double post! =X

EDIT: and another reason why i wouldnt say "its hot!" is cause that would more than likely sound like sarcasm mock at their ways of exclamation, and i dont want to risk sensors coming with fists at me.

although im tempted, i would like to have a day when i just pretend to be an esfj without my comments becoming mockery, although esfj like. so far my esfj me is pretty damn racist, and i only pretend so in presence of istp's to create common ground.

but aww! =] the esfj's are so innocently stupid with their whole hearted stupid comments, so its only perfect for sarcasm to pretend one with not so innocent stupid comments.

You know you can move the quote tags around and add new ones to break up the paragraphs you're responding to so your posts aren't really confusing to read, right? Like this:

"
ISFJ version: Today, while I was having lunch at Mel's Deli, I saw a 1958 red convertible classic Corvette, with a rounded windshield, white-wall tires, and chrome hub caps that looked newer than the rest of the car. It was keeping up in acceleration with the other cars on the road, and the guy driving it looked a little like my grandpa, kind of short and heavy with these bright happy eyes. It felt great outside, like Spring has finally come, but I was glad to have my sunglasses, since my eyes are so sensitive.

(your response here)

ISTP version: Hey, I saw a Lotus Exige in the gym parking lot today. It's about as big as Dad is, he'll never fit. He should really go for the Porsche instead. The red looked good, didn't show a lot of dirt. I can't imagine why anyone would put shitty Conti wheels on it, though - the driver tore it out of the lot and practically left a chunk of tire on the ground. The air was so hot you could smell the rubber from across the road, it was disgusting.

There is plenty of interesting content in either of those paragraphs, from the place to the type of car to its specs to the driver to the change of season to whether Dad can fit in a Lotus.

Compare "our nearest star imbuing its wrath upon us from afar", an N sort of thing to say. Why would you not just say "it's hot!"?
"

My humble apologies for giving you useless S information. Not sure why I'm bothering, but hey, improved clarity in posts here is always a good thing, I suppose.

 

[garbage]

We all know that focusing on detail and actual reality is quite important at times, but that attempts to draw broad patterns and trajectory are important at other times? The act of eschewing and deriding the former, in its entirety, is itself using too broad of a brush.

Anyone ever heard of cameras? They have zoom lenses. We tend to throw out pictures that are too blurry, don't we? So, we expect them to be capable of focus on a variety of levels.

 

[Vilku]

I do understand that the way in which Sensors tend to present data can be distasteful to a strong N. A heavy flow of concrete data can be hard for us to keep up with; I understand what you feel in that regard. Heavy outpourings of Si or Se can be like a flood of data we don't have any storage space available for, so we have to either slosh through it, struggling to keep up, or wait until it's over, so we can try to make sense of it as a whole.

However, I think you may want to reconsider the value of S perception. Yes, it's raw, detailed, tangible, practical, and perhaps sometimes "boring" if you're more interested in theoretical pursuit. But without balance, N perception can lose grasp of reality so quickly that it becomes completely arbitrary, and even just factually completely wrong. Sensors offer Ns a huge gift in that they condense all the information that Ns tend to miss out on. Sensors can become extremely valuable people to discuss with once you understand the importance of their perception in balancing your own - their information improves your N understanding, because it forces you to fact-check your theories and concepts. The Sensors I know easily hold their own and often vastly increase my understanding in many topics because they add knowledge of real facts, events, things, processes, systems, places, and people to my conceptual viewpoint - not to mention they generally are expert at grasping how things work and how to get things done. Ss are not lacking in intelligence because of their perception style.

Secondly, regardless of whether you find their perception appealing or not, I don't think it's fair or even remotely accurate to call Ss "stupid" or be patronizing to them. What I don't understand is why you believe it's the Sensors' fault that their communication style is not easily dealt with by you, and how it makes them "stupid" - and how it makes it okay to insult them - because they may emphasize the things that you personally aren't interested in. If you struggle to grasp the importance of S information, then the one with a deficiency in understanding is you, not them. Moreover, it's unkind and unfair to insult anyone for a lack of intelligence, as no one chooses that.

emm.. i think we are all stupid, just in different ways. and all intelligent, in different ways. or at least we _try_ <.<

i dont think its so evil to insult other people, after all i love them all and mere words dont tell what i think of them in my heart.

i do think i can now see the value of sensorian understanding, but i still often struggle synthesizing my conceptual thinking into a conversation both sides can enjoy, due the translation problems, but i think im getting better at it.

i think best conversation is the mutual flow of thoughts but ive been in an Ni Ti loop for years so its hard getting my thoughts out, and especially im afraid of my tender side being rejected. i think most often my problem is in talking about new things, i find it so much easier to present all my previous thoughts(which is fruitless for me) but proceeding into new territory is difficult, and i guess this culture has tainted me quite pessimistic attitude about it to make it more complicated.

You know you can move the quote tags around and add new ones to break up the paragraphs you're responding to so your posts aren't really confusing to read, right? Like this:


(your response here)


My humble apologies for giving you useless S information. Not sure why I'm bothering, but hey, improved clarity in posts here is always a good thing, I suppose.

i find it really hard to comprehend. for some reason ive always had this problem with istp's online, but not face to face. i guess its just difference in preferences, but were you suggesting i should edit the original piece of text i copied? O_O i.. think i placed the quote marks where i think it was most easy to understand.

 

[AdmiralAndGirlsDesu]

Some things that annoy me personally about Sensors:

1. When I speak using some metaphors and analogies and I think / know they aren't hard to understand, but they scratch their heads without a clue.

2. When they tell me to not think too much, when I want to explore people and the world and the way things are instead of just taking everything at face value.

3. When they go ON and ON, to the most minute details, about trivial things and subjects I have absolutely no interest in. I pretend I'm listening, and might even nod in agreement, but just one careful glimpse at my face and you'll realize I'm completely tuned out after two minutes.

4. When they live in the moment so much that they have no regard for consequences, nor stop to feel and reflect deeply on themselves and on the world.


5. When I try to build a bond by saying something meaningful as a conversation starter (usually an insight into the world / things / humanity) and they either don't care at all, give a half-assed response, or mock me for being too sensitive / naive / strange / whatever.

6. When they are feeling down and I try to help them gain a deeper understanding of their condition, hoping it would lead to something engaging, but find out that their sadness is only temporary and very simple rather than any existential angst. In these cases, I feel disappointed.

7. When it is hard for them to 'get' me because I don't always wear my thoughts and feelings on my sleeve. Since there is no direct and low context expression, they often assume the thoughts and feelings aren't there because they're not "physical."

8. When they expect me to make decisions quickly and decisively (though this may have more to with P vs J), not realizing my need to go through all the options.