Multiple Enneagram Subtypes/Instincts The relationship between the two most dominant instincts

[Viridian]

It just means where your attention and enthusiasm goes. Just follow that as much as you can.

Well, let's see... Say I'm at my university, in between classes. My thoughts tend to drift towards a) being discreet and avoiding unwanted attention - partly, I admit, due to feelings of shame (I once missed a class due to dreading the prospect of humiliation and embarassing questions ); b) what I'll do with the time I have and how I'll administer it (not that it helps me actually do stuff all that much, mind you); and c) the kinds of conversations I'd have (or like to have) with people. Well, and video game music, but that doesn't help answer your question, methinks.

When I'm at home, I feel more free to think more about my personal needs (not necessarily physical) and how I'll organize my private time - the work-life balance is an issue I'll have to deal with in due time.

I think that partially answers your question, but I also feel like I'm not seeing the whole picture. It's not always easy to detect your focus in hindsight.

 

[Viridian]

[MENTION=12223]Viridian[/MENTION], I think your post earlier sounded the most like 9, then 6, and then 5 in that order. I wish I could be more helpful, but I'm honestly not sure how to tell the difference between a 9 and a 6 at this point. They can start to look identical in the average levels.

Hmm...Well how about this: What makes you feel secure?

Oh, thank you. These three are indeed my main choices...

What makes me feel secure: financial stability (I likez my stuff! ), being able to do my idiosyncratic routine stuff, having companionship (well, not just any companionship - there needs to be interpersnal compatibility, otherwise it can get kind of heated and stressful).

 

[Silveresque]

Oh, thank you. These three are indeed my main choices...

What makes me feel secure: financial stability (I likez my stuff! ), being able to do my idiosyncratic routine stuff, having companionship (well, not just any companionship - there needs to be interpersnal compatibility, otherwise it can get kind of heated and stressful).

Yay, idiosyncratic routine stuff! (Same here)

What makes me feel secure/comfortable is:
- Privacy - I feel uncomfortable when other people are around
- Being certain, knowing the answer
- Predictability - knowing what to expect, having a simple and predictable system I can master
- Approval, being liked
- Knowing where I stand with others (because I constantly worry about what others think of me)
- Clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)
- Not having obligations and deadlines to worry about

I wonder if you can relate to any of mine, because I think a lot of mine come from being a 6 (though I could be mistyped ).

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION]
I'm not completely convinced Brad Pitt is 7w6 (he seems a lot like a 9w8 to be honest)
I'm less convinced he's So/Sx. he seems Sp/Sx to me

 

[Speed Gavroche]

[MENTION=5356]Speed Gavroche[/MENTION]
I'm not completely convinced Brad Pitt is 7w6 (he seems a lot like a 9w8 to be honest)
I'm less convinced he's So/Sx. he seems Sp/Sx to me

Brad P is a 7w6 not a 9w8, his orientation is the "monkey spirit", quick adapter and planner who is pleasure oriented and assertive, he is more self-absorbed than merging, more "hyper" than mellow.

He is clearly So/Sx and not Sp/Sx, if you make the comparaison with other So/Sx men, you would see the similarities:

[youtube=9JskOs7xXwU]Brad Pitt on Ellen DeGeneres-2011-09-22.mpg[/youtube]
[youtube=OWgZ5TSle7I]Rob Lowe on Ellen DeGeneres Show, October 6, 2009 HD VIDEO [Part 1] [/youtube]
[youtube=LJOJooYEdMA]New Moon's Robert Pattinson on The Ellen DeGeneres Show Friday Nov 20 2009 Part 1 of 2[/youtube]

Make the girl crowd yell, is playfull with the audience, take all the time to receive the applaud and never seems annoyed. Brad P is also very similar to the So/Sx Roberd Redford.

But no, he's not a 9w8 Sp/Sx, Clint Eastwood is a 8w9 Sp/Sx, see the difference:

[youtube=8egTvJfrIyk]CLINT EASTWOOD on Ellen DeGeneres Show - December 8, 2009 - HD[/youtube]

Temper the audience, don't care about the crowd, a bit annoyed by the noise, quiet and protective. Completely different.

Watch also this video of Keanu R, true 9w8 Sp/Sx, he's quiet and somewhat austere, don't pay attention to the audience, not too much putting excitement in the talk.

[youtube=t_FQScFXbcA]Keanu Reeves on Letterman[/youtube]

 

[Speed Gavroche]

Not to be dismissive of your thoughts, but the more I encounter stackings, the more I think how much they just obfuscate and over-complicate the issue and don't help illustrate a god-damned thing.

It over-complicate only when you don't master it. The subtype is actually often more easy to find than the enneatype.

"Dude is obsessed with sex and love and allure and intimacy, but he can't be sx-dom because he isn't sexy."

John Lennon was an Sx/So and he said that talking about sex was like talking about music, it has'nt any interest. Woody Allen is an Sp/So and he talks about sex always. He's also often considered as sexy, possibly more often than John L. But Woody A is oriented toward sex as an intelectual and mental level above all while John L was a oriented toward sex by his guts. The sexual instincts, like the two others instincts flows toward the body and it is visible. Then Woody A is Sx-last while John L was Sx-first, that's all. I don't see what is "over-vomplicating" in that.

And I think you need to get away from the word "instinct", since it's a fairly arbitrary one in this case - there's no mind/body split being illustrated here. I feel the instincts are more suffused and all-encompassing than that.

It is about instinct. In enneagram there's the mental fixation at the Head Center, the passion of the heart at the Heart Center, and the instincts at the Gut Center. If you say it's not instinctive, you completely miss the point.

 

[Vizzy]

*sigh* No one wants to discuss the theory...

Yay, idiosyncratic routine stuff! (Same here)

What makes me feel secure/comfortable is:
- Privacy - I feel uncomfortable when other people are around
- Being certain, knowing the answer
- Predictability - knowing what to expect, having a simple and predictable system I can master
- Approval, being liked
- Knowing where I stand with others (because I constantly worry about what others think of me)
- Clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)
- Not having obligations and deadlines to worry about

I wonder if you can relate to any of mine, because I think a lot of mine come from being a 6 (though I could be mistyped ).

Mind if I make my own list too?

What I need in life:

- My family, and knowing they're all healthy. After my cousin died recently, this has been a particular worry of mine.
- Freedom and the thought that my life has not been planned. I need this flexibility.
- Being able to research and learn to my heart's content.
- My inquisitiveness, curiosity and passion for learning. If I ever gave that up and felt jaded, then I'd lose meaning in life. I love the thought that, during my lifetime, I will witness many more discoveries and inventions to come. What will the world be like in 2045? I'm excited to see. And bring on the aliens!
- Not being tied down. Like I said, predictability and commitment would depress me.
- Being competent, worthy and feeling like I'm not a waste of space.
- I desire to be irreplaceable at something, and to someone.

Does this say anything about my instincts?

 

[Silveresque]

*sigh* No one wants to discuss the theory...

Sorry about all the thread derailing.

Mind if I make my own list too?

What I need in life:

- My family, and knowing they're all healthy. After my cousin died recently, this has been a particular worry of mine.
- Freedom and the thought that my life has not been planned. I need this flexibility.
- Being able to research and learn to my heart's content.
- My inquisitiveness, curiosity and passion for learning. If I ever gave that up and felt jaded, then I'd lose meaning in life. I love the thought that, during my lifetime, I will witness many more discoveries and inventions to come. What will the world be like in 2045? I'm excited to see. And bring on the aliens!
- Not being tied down. Like I said, predictability and commitment would depress me.
- Being competent, worthy and feeling like I'm not a waste of space.
- I desire to be irreplaceable at something, and to someone.

Does this say anything about my instincts?

I don't know about instincts, but this has e5 written all over it. Though I think not wanting to be tied down or have things be predictable sounds to me like it could indicate a preference for Sx over Sp. Then again, I put predictability in my list, so I don't know...

 

[Vizzy]

Sorry about all the thread derailing.


I don't know about instincts, but this has e5 written all over it. Though I think not wanting to be tied down or have things be predictable sounds to me like it could indicate a preference for Sx over Sp. Then again, I put predictability in my list, so I don't know...

Don't apologise! lol I actually appreciate that people are making use of this thread and that it hasn't faded into oblivion yet.

Anyway, yeah, you make an interesting point. Is predictability more in the sp-domain, and unpredictability in sx's? I'd probably go as far as to say that the chase/crush stage seems much more attractive than when a relationship becomes 'official'.

 

[Elfboy]

It over-complicate only when you don't master it. The subtype is actually often more easy to find than the enneatype.

John Lennon was an Sx/So and he said that talking about sex was like talking about music, it has'nt any interest. Woody Allen is an Sp/So and he talks about sex always. He's also often considered as sexy, possibly more often than John L. But Woody A is oriented toward sex as an intelectual and mental level above all while John L was a oriented toward sex by his guts. The sexual instincts, like the two others instincts flows toward the body and it is visible. Then Woody A is Sx-last while John L was Sx-first, that's all. I don't see what is "over-vomplicating" in that.

It is about instinct. In enneagram there's the mental fixation at the Head Center, the passion of the heart at the Heart Center, and the instincts at the Gut Center. If you say it's not instinctive, you completely miss the point.

agreed.

 

[VagrantFarce]

It over-complicate only when you don't master it. The subtype is actually often more easy to find than the enneatype.

I just feel it completely gets away from the reality of things - it's one too many "categories". You're no longer illustrating or getting in touch with the needs that people in your life express, or neglect, and how they do it, and why. You don't really learn anything from it. You're just categorising behaviour, arbitrarily, and it serves no function outside of itself.

It is about instinct. In enneagram there's the mental fixation at the Head Center, the passion of the heart at the Heart Center, and the instincts at the Gut Center. If you say it's not instinctive, you completely miss the point.

Well, I suppose what I mean to say is that it's not inclusive within the gut - these needs can be expressed & fulfilled in other ways, specifically mental & emotional ways. I also think that just because someone is neglecting a need for whatever reason, and seems to act neurotically or out-of-step with something, does not mean that isn't their primary need in life. People can very easily neglect their primary needs, something I think the low styles of each enneagram type help to illustrate very well.

This also relates to my idea that the instincts aren't stacked - you have a primary motivation in life, and you're either fulfilling it, or you're not. Either way, it's on the radar, it's in your thoughts, it motivates your behaviour. You could be running away from it, making excuses for it, obsessing over it, chasing it, ignoring it, attacking it...whatever it is, it's like a magnet under the ground dragging you through life. And you're either tending to it or you're not.

I honestly think that to make things more complicated than that serves no real purpose to anyone.

 

[Vizzy]

I just feel it completely gets away from the reality of things - it's one too many "categories". You're no longer illustrating or getting in touch with the needs that people in your life express, or neglect, and how they do it, and why. You don't really learn anything from it. You're just categorising behaviour, arbitrarily, and it serves no function outside of itself.



Well, I suppose what I mean to say is that it's not inclusive within the gut - these needs can be expressed & fulfilled in other ways, specifically mental & emotional ways. I also think that just because someone is neglecting a need for whatever reason, and seems to act neurotically or out-of-step with something, does not mean that isn't their primary need in life. People can very easily neglect their primary needs, something I think the low styles of each enneagram type help to illustrate very well.

This also relates to my idea that the instincts aren't stacked - you have a primary motivation in life, and you're either fulfilling it, or you're not. Either way, it's on the radar, it's in your thoughts, it motivates your behaviour. You could be running away from it, making excuses for it, obsessing over it, chasing it, ignoring it, attacking it...whatever it is, it's like a magnet under the ground dragging you through life. And you're either tending to it or you're not.

I honestly think that to make things more complicated than that serves no real purpose to anyone.

I'm happy with this explanation, as opposed to the "he's not sx because he doesn't ooze sexiness" one which, in my humble opinion, seems over-simplified, shallow...and uninteresting.

 

[Viridian]

Yay, idiosyncratic routine stuff! (Same here)

What makes me feel secure/comfortable is:
- Privacy - I feel uncomfortable when other people are around
- Being certain, knowing the answer
- Predictability - knowing what to expect, having a simple and predictable system I can master
- Approval, being liked
- Knowing where I stand with others (because I constantly worry about what others think of me)
- Clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)
- Not having obligations and deadlines to worry about

I wonder if you can relate to any of mine, because I think a lot of mine come from being a 6 (though I could be mistyped ).

I identify with quite a few of those. Considering our ages, do you suppose it has to do as much with the beginning of adulthood as with actual type?

*sigh* No one wants to discuss the theory...

Hey now, I did ask for permission.

 

[Elfboy]

Yay, idiosyncratic routine stuff! (Same here)

What makes me feel secure/comfortable is:
- Privacy - I feel uncomfortable when other people are around
- Being certain, knowing the answer
- Predictability - knowing what to expect, having a simple and predictable system I can master
- Approval, being liked
- Knowing where I stand with others (because I constantly worry about what others think of me)
- Clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)
- Not having obligations and deadlines to worry about

I wonder if you can relate to any of mine, because I think a lot of mine come from being a 6 (though I could be mistyped ).

6w5 Sp/Sx or Sp/So

 

[Silveresque]

Yay, idiosyncratic routine stuff! (Same here)

What makes me feel secure/comfortable is:
- Privacy - I feel uncomfortable when other people are around
- Being certain, knowing the answer
- Predictability - knowing what to expect, having a simple and predictable system I can master
- Approval, being liked
- Knowing where I stand with others (because I constantly worry about what others think of me)
- Clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)
- Not having obligations and deadlines to worry about

I wonder if you can relate to any of mine, because I think a lot of mine come from being a 6 (though I could be mistyped ).

I identify with quite a few of those. Considering our ages, do you suppose it has to do as much with the beginning of adulthood as with actual type?

Maybe somewhat...I can see why "knowing the answer" would be important for a college student. But I didn't intend for it to be limited to certain contexts such as school. For example, on my type me thread, someone asked me what type I wanted to be, and I answered "the right type". For some reason, I just need to know my type, and I won't settle for a maybe. Right now I think I'm a 6, but I won't stop researching and questioning until I'm certain that this is the correct type. So that's kind of what I meant by needing to be certain and know the answer. I don't think my age has anything to do with that.

And let me elaborate on another one, "clear guidelines (no ambiguity) and knowing what I'm supposed to do (especially in unfamiliar situations)". It's more than just knowing the requirements and deadlines for school assignments. I've always been sensitive to ambiguity. If there's even a tiny bit of ambiguity that could make it possible to misinterpret something, I'll probably notice it, and I might go into a sort of panic trying to figure out what was meant and worrying that I might be misinterpreting it. I've had this happen before lots of times on tests at school, where I had to get up and ask the teacher what was meant in a slightly ambiguous question. I have no idea how everyone else always seemed to intuitively know what was intended in the question. Or at least they must have known because I always seemed to be the only one who had to ask. But again, it's not limited to school. I often have the same problem when communicating with people. If I'm not entirely sure what the person meant, I go through the same sort of panic process. anic:

Anyways, the things on the list have kind of always applied to me, and I don't really see them changing anytime soon. So while they could possibly have to do with my age, I kind of doubt it (at least for me anyways).

 

[Speed Gavroche]

I'm happy with this explanation, as opposed to the "he's not sx because he doesn't ooze sexiness" one which, in my humble opinion, seems over-simplified, shallow...and uninteresting.

Ok, you hav'nt get the point at all.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

I just feel it completely gets away from the reality of things - it's one too many "categories". You're no longer illustrating or getting in touch with the needs that people in your life express, or neglect, and how they do it, and why. You don't really learn anything from it. You're just categorising behaviour, arbitrarily, and it serves no function outside of itself.

It's not arbitrary, it is actually in touch with reality and explained wry well the dramatic differences between people, including in the same type.

How could you explain than this

and this

have the same type if you don't get the instinctual typology? The reality prove that you are wrong.

Well, I suppose what I mean to say is that it's not inclusive within the gut - these needs can be expressed & fulfilled in other ways, specifically mental & emotional ways.

Possible, but in this case, that has nothing to do with the instinctual variant.

I also think that just because someone is neglecting a need for whatever reason, and seems to act neurotically or out-of-step with something, does not mean that isn't their primary need in life.

The instinctual variant is not about our needs, we have needs in theses three big sector of life, the instinctual variant represent the instinctive mode of survival.

honestly think that to make things more complicated than that serves no real purpose to anyone.

As i ever said, it's wrong.

 

[VagrantFarce]

It's not arbitrary, it is actually in touch with reality and explained wry well the dramatic differences between people, including in the same type.

How could you explain than that

and that

have the same type if you don't get the instinctual typology? The reality prove that you are wrong.

There are hundreds of thousands of reasons why george bush is different to lady gaga, I'm saying that it's silly to try and explain that away with something like the enneagram. It has it's very positive uses, but you can only paint very broad strokes with it at best. And I believe that the stackings (as well as tri-types and wings) are a fool-hardy and miss-guided attempt to cover all possible variations, to the point that you're no longer dealing with actual people - you're dealing with fuzzy abstraction and vague generalisations at best. It achieves nothing, and you learn nothing about anyone, especially yourself.

The instinctual variant is not about our needs, we have needs in theses three big sector of life, the instinctual variant represent the instinctive mode of survival.

I can assure you, we're in the business of considering what people need, what people want and how they choose to go about it. To use this stuff for any other purpose is a waste of time.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

There are hundreds of thousands of reasons why george bush is different to lady gaga, I'm saying that it's silly to try and explain that away with something like the enneagram. It has it's very positive uses, but you can only paint very broad strokes with it at best. And I believe that the stackings (as well as tri-types and wings) are a fool-hardy and miss-guided attempt to cover all possible variations, to the point that you're no longer dealing with actual people - you're dealing with fuzzy abstraction and vague generalisations at best. It achieves nothing, and you learn nothing about anyone, especially yourself.

I agree that tri-type is bullshit. It is based on misconceptions about enenagram and barnum effect.

Do you think it's a hasard if Lady Gaga is similars to other Sx/So people and people from neighbor subtypes like 6w5 Sx/So, 6w7 Sx/Sp, 6w7 So/Sx or 7w6 Sx/So but with significants variations? Do you think it's a hazard if we can say the same thing about GWBS with other Sp/So or neighbor types?

Theses categories deal with authentic people, and it's pretty easy to find the wing and the subtype of someone when you master that typology. Have you ever read seen this article? http://pastebin.com/gsAhzZqW

It actually learn you a lot about yourself and and others, and also help you to type yourself and type others with more accuracy.

I can assure you, we're in the business of considering what people need, what people want and how they choose to go about it. To use this stuff for any other purpose is a waste of time, in my opinion.

The enneatypes and the subtypes is what work with us when we are entranced and in autopilot. Our motivations is what we can achieve when we unleash from that trance and autopilot. It's tghe second step, a different step, a different thing. The subtypes can represent our need, but it's more agressive that a simple "motivation", the subtypes represent our bestial nature, not something mental. It come from the guts and the passion of the heart. But someone with use his mental to think and talk about sex is not sexual, someone who use his mental to be a good buisnessman is not necessarly self-pres, and someone who use his mental for networking and for social project is not necessarly social.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Do you think it's a hasard if Lady Gaga is similars to other Sx/So people and people from neighbor subtypes like 6w5 Sx/So, 6w7 Sx/Sp, 6w7 So/Sx or 7w6 Sx/So but with significants variations? Do you think it's a hazard if we can say the same thing about GWBS with other Sp/So or neighbor types?

No of course not, I'm just reacting against the temptation to cover every possible variation in behaviour and motivation, since it's needless and tells you nothing about anyone. The enneagram is a self-help tool, first and foremost, and should be treated as such - it is not meant to be an absolute catalogue of human behaviour. I think that the wings and instinctual stackings are arbitrary, and frankly do more harm than good since they obfuscate how perceptive the enneagram can be.

The enneatypes and the subtypes is what work with us when we are entranced and in autopilot. Our motivations is what we can achieve when we unleash from that trance and autopilot. It's tghe second step, a different step, a different thing. The subtypes can represent our need, but it's more agressive that a simple "motivation", the subtypes represent our bestial nature, not something mental. It come from the guts and the passion of the heart. But someone with use his mental to think and talk about sex is not sexual, someone who use his mental to be a good buisnessman is not necessarly self-pres, and someone who use his mental for networking and for social project is not necessarly social.

Your motivations are constantly churning away inside you, regardless of how you choose to deal with them - you don't need the enneagram to tell you that. The enneagram is like every other self-help tool in the world - it helps us to identify whether we're truly acting in our own best interests. And the instincts, I feel, are a wonderful illustration of the subconscious needs that people express without realising it.