Fe Fakeness

[Glycerine]

Yeah, I can see this being the case.

But the point still stands that an emotion is experienced and then pushed aside/supplanted/what not.

The Fi-user is like, "I wouldn't push aside/supplant that emotion, but I can tell you are, and that's fake."

I have actually dealt with sort of thing a lot with both Fi users and Fe users... I blame it on social conditioning partially...."it's bad to express negative thoughts/emotions"...

 

[Zarathustra]

Fi always sounds really easily confused to me. Fi seems like (from reading here) that unless you are extremely literal and practically pantomiming and acting out very broadly so that anyone speaking any language would be able to easily understand you, you are being fake. There's a lack of subtle discernment that drives me a little crazy. "I can tell because my super-refined feelings tell me so that you are not happy, you are actually something else! Because you are not acting the something else out at the moment, therefore you are FAKE!" Well, if you can tell it, why does it have to be acted out for you, too? It's like Fi is frustrated because they can't see something. They have a vague sense of something but they can't see it, and you have to make it really big for them so they won't have any doubt in their minds about what they're getting. Otherwise, they are suspicious of you. Like somehow unable to process more than one signal at a time and really easily confused.

And we'd just say that we prefer people who are authentic.

We think that wasting time and effort on untruth is (usually) a waste.

 

[Tiltyred]

I don't think anybody is out to waste time and effort on untruth. But Fi needs such an unambiguous signal it's like it's nearly deaf.

 

[Zarathustra]

I have actually dealt with sort of thing a lot with both Fi users and Fe users... I blame it on social conditioning partially...."it's bad to express negative thoughts/emotions"...

Yeah, I do think this comes down to degrees.

I think everyone does it, to a certain extent.

Fe users just do it a lot more.

EDIT: As certain people have already said, Fi doms and auxs have their own form of this as well, though. So I think sometimes, in social situations, they try to mask their distaste for others a bit as well; I just don't think it's as often or as overt as many Fe-heavy users; I also think they do it largely (but not entirely) for different reasons.

EDIT2: Even TJs, the weakest Fe-users, do this a bit. But, usually (not always, though), it's Te mimicking Fe. And, interestingly enough, it's for very similar reasons: expediency, efficiency, keeping the imperative on track. It's just, the imperative is usually a bit different than Fe users' imperative(s). At times this will become blatantly obvious, when a Te imperative (need for truth to be stated) completely overrides anything that could possibly resemble an Fe imperative (social harmony).

 

[Fidelia]

I think that Fe tends to weigh the impact of that negative emotion on those around them, the objective at hand, and whether expressing it will result in any more positive outcome. If it seems that expressing it will have a detrimental or nonproductive effect at that point in time, it may be put aside until there is a better time to process and deal with it. I don't think Fe users see that as pretending or being fake, but rather that they are trying to show consideration for those around them or for the importance of the task at hand.

In addition, I don't think that passing emotions are something that Fe users see as a defining part of themselves - emotions are transient, need to be sorted through to figure out what is spawning them, various weighting needs to be assigned to each of them, some time may be required to let them settle, more information may need to be factored in and so on. It all takes time and a lot of energy to do, so I may put it aside until I felt I could do a proper job of it. At least in my case, I would consider HOW I perform something or not letting people down a much more integral part of my identity than my emotions at that time.

Where it trips up sometimes is that Fe users can underestimate the intensity of what they are feeling and how it may influence their judgement or how well they are coping. Sometimes it doesn't occur to them that in an attempt to avoid imposing on others or drawing attention to themselves, they are actually creating more "noise" for others that is distracting if they are to work together and unintentionally inconveniencing those around them. I'm not sure about SFJ flavoured Fe, but the NFJ Fe users I know seem embarrassed then when an emotional response bursts through in a venue which they deem inappropriate or in front of people they don't feel comfortable being vulnerable with.

 

[Zarathustra]

I don't think anybody is out to waste time and effort on untruth. But Fi needs such an unambiguous signal it's like it's nearly deaf.

And we think you guys spend a lot of time and effort masking the truth.

And this masking "tastes" bad to us. It literally makes us recoil in disgust.

When I see someone being authentic, on the other hand: refreshing.

 

[Tiltyred]

It hurts our feelings when you recoil in disgust. You Fi people are unfeeling and insensitive. You must die.

 

[Zarathustra]

*Sees multiple possibilities for what you're trying to accomplish with that statement, but not quite sure how you really feel.*

*Te imperative tells to laugh, just to keep things (truth-finding) going.*

 

[Fidelia]

I don't see any reason to show annoyance and create possibly longlasting bad feeling if the problem was simply due to a factor such as me feeling tired, or lacking enough information, or needing to bounce my perspective off of someone I trust. I realize that Fi users seem a lot more self-sufficient in that sense, but I believe Fe really does need both time and that kind of mirroring for whether their perceptions are valid before they wish to take action.

To me that is not masking, because it's not that I want to indefinately stave off addressing my emotions. For me, it's usually borne out of a desire to be fair and reasonable. If I said the unedited version of my thoughts most times without a period of reflection or observation, I would most definitely hurt and rile up most of the Fi users I interact with. And what purpose would it have served? None, from my perspective.

It's also become apparent to me in a bunch of the Fe/Fi threads that Fe feels it's pointless to express something just for the sake of expressing it. Usually there is an objective in doing so. That's why it seemed incomprehensible at first to me on here that occasionally when a Fi user had a big public outburst that caused a bru-haha, there wasn't an envisioned plan of action or desired outcome, or the one presented seemed rather idealistic and inachievable. In short, I was looking for productive solutions so there was no longer a problem, while they were looking for authenticity and felt the need to be true to themselves and air out their feelings and call a spade a spade (probably said very offensively and clumsily here, but that's kind of what I took away from it).

 

[Ginkgo]

That's a very ambiguous statement.

Well, let's say you're talking with an Fe'r, right? They lie. If you have a head on your shoulders, you might sense the truth that they lie, or at the very least, the truth that they have said what they said. If you're deterred by them, there is a reason, correct? Would you be deterred in ignorance? I doubt it.

 

[Ginkgo]

It hurts our feelings when you recoil in disgust. You Fi people are unfeeling and insensitive. You must die.

*cackles enthusiastically*

 

[Glycerine]

Yeah, I do think this comes down to degrees.

I think everyone does it, to a certain extent.

Fe users just do it a lot more.

EDIT: As certain people have already said, Fi doms and auxs have their own form of this as well, though. So I think sometimes, in social situations, they try to mask their distaste for others a bit as well; I just don't think it's as often or as overt as many Fe-heavy users.

EDIT2: Even TJs, the weakest Fe-users, do this a bit. But, usually (not always, though), it's Te mimicking Fe. And, interestingly enough, it's for very similar reasons: expediency, efficiency, keeping the imperative on track. It's just, the imperative is usually a bit different than Fe users' imperative(s). At times this will become blatantly obvious, when a Te imperative (need for truth to be stated) completely overrides anything that could possibly resemble an Fe imperative (social harmony).

Thinking about this more... I bet what you said is probably what my XSTJ brother would say of me.

To be honest, I just did not want to open up about what I was truly feeling/thinking because I did want my emotions dismissed/judged (people have done with alarming frequency in the past...that's why I'm a 5...lol), burden other people, I'm a private person who unfortunately has a very expressive face, I want to have time to process things w/o a lot of immediate input, I thought some of emotions/ thoughts were irrational so I did not care to share them out of embarrassment, and/or of course, did not want to "god forbid" offend folks.

EDIT: I apologize for mostly anecdotes but I don't want to speak on behalf of Fe users.

 

[Tiltyred]

For me, it's usually borne out of a desire to be fair and reasonable. If I said the unedited version of my thoughts most times without a period of reflection or observation, I would most definitely hurt and rile up most of the Fi users I interact with. And what purpose would it have served? None, from my perspective.

Yes.
Plus, for me, my sense of self is not disturbed by whether or not you can see my inner state at any given moment. It would be fake to let you think that my temporary emotion is Me. It isn't. It's my temporary emotion. Give me 24 hours and I may think better of it.

 

[Zarathustra]

Hey Fidelia, (never would've written this normally, but figure, considering the thread, I might as well try and work out that Fe a bit )

I didn't read your previous post, but I'm assuming I'm somewhat being addressed here, since I've mostly been posting as the Fi user.

Umm, once again, as I've said to a number of Fe users in this thread, I think what you wrote was very reasonable.

I think, as a Je person, I actually, in some ways, can understand pretty well where FJs are coming from.

[MENTION=6166]Orobas[/MENTION] once pointed to this (and I think she was right): TJs often learn to play by the Fe rules better than the FPs.

That's certainly not always the case, sometimes it will be the exact opposite, but I've found it to be true a good amount of the time.

I don't see any reason to show annoyance and create possibly longlasting bad feeling if the problem was simply due to a factor such as me feeling tired, or lacking enough information, or needing to bounce my perspective off of someone I trust. I realize that Fi users seem a lot more self-sufficient in that sense, but I believe Fe really does need both time and that kind of mirroring for whether their perceptions are valid before they wish to take action.

Very interesting.

The first thing that stuck out to me was your use of "self-sufficient".

I guess I just never (or rarely) even think of it like that: like it being some kind of strength.

At first, it almost made me think, "is she being real/honest/authentic here, or is this back-handed in some way?"

Having read it now three times, I think you're being mostly honest (90%-95%+).

I guess the idea of needing other people's opinions (i.e., mirroring) to make up my mind or have my opinion is largely foreign to me.

In the past, it might not have been as much that way, but since I developed Fi, I largely threw needing to know other people's opinions out the window. Even before, I didn't really search out other peoples', I just didn't really know my own like I do now...

I do like to engage with other people's opinions, though, but that's more on a fact-finding (TeSe), perspective-considering (Ni) basis.

I have to say that it's odd for me to try to put myself in the mindset you've described.

It's a world very foreign to my own...

I also want to say that I appreciate your honesty.

It might just feel natural and not troubling at all for you to admit something like that, so saying this might be for naught, but I do appreciate the open look into something that could be a sensitive issue.

*ponders to self whether feeling in chest and bumbled attempt to extend olive branch is Fe or Fi*

Sometimes, rather rarely, but sometimes, I think I do actually experience Fe.

Certain *ahem* chemicals may make this experience more likely.

To me that is not masking, because it's not that I want to indefinately stave off addressing my emotions. For me, it's usually borne out of a desire to be fair and reasonable. If I said the unedited version of my thoughts most times without a period of reflection or observation, I would most definitely hurt and rile up most of the Fi users I interact with. And what purpose would it have served? None, from my perspective.

Yeah, that's probably a good thing.

*

Ok, so, to summarize:

- Fe users are judgmental, possibly more judgmental than Fi users, and Fi users don't like this judgmentalness, because they don't think the rules by which they are judged can justifiably be put on them, as they don't believe these rules should actually apply to everybody like Fe users do. However, we should not let ourselves forget that Fi users are not the only ones who project their value judgments onto others: Fi users often do this, too; many times they do live in a more "live and let live", "let bygones be bygones" kinda way, but not all the time; and it's often worse when Fi users go around doing their value-projecting, because those values are more highly subjective than Fe users' value judgments, which makes them that much less properly applicable to everybody.

- Fe users often replace immediate emotional reactions that might harm social harmony if they were to be let out of the bag with more socially acceptable emotional reactions, in order to maintain social harmony. Fi users often don't like this, because they think it's inauthentic/fake, but, the truth is, Fi users do sometimes partake in similar behavior, albeit probably to a lesser extent, and seemingly for different reasons. Furthermore, it's not exactly fair to call the reactions that Fe users do end up giving "inauthentic" or "fake" en totem, because they are actually derived from genuine emotions (i.e., the desire to preserve social harmony, and, as Kalach has been pointing to, the desire to direct). Nevertheless, there is still some sense in which a reaction in which one emotion is not replaced with another is still more authentic, regardless of what type of person does or does not have/do it.

- I think there's one more good bullet point to write, but that's all I got for now... fuck.

 

[Kalach]

This thing about preferring to sort out the feelings later... I'm gonna go with the idea this is a call to introversion.

This is interesting. The FJs need Ti backups before a feeling becomes a judgment?

*stamps table*
THIZ NOT RIGHT!


The picture being created is one of structure outside and structure inside and feeling wriggling back and forth as the spark in between. There's a missing element, perhaps one that is painfully obvious to the Fe types because it amounts to their central functioning and you're assuming we should know it too.

GODDAMN YOU FREAKS, YOU"RE DOING IT AGAIN! You're stepping away from the notion that Fe is a driving, constructive force. Perhaps the person also favours Se and believes in physical expression, or they favour Ne and get horrified by deviation from established pathways, but either way they engage in organisational activity for the betterment of... all mankind?

WHY WON'T YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR PLAN FOR US ALL! IT'S CAMPS, ISN'T IT! LOVELY SEASIDE CAMPS AND NOT EVERYONE COMES BACK FROM SWIMMING

 

[Kalach]

Well if one tends to speak directively but in a way that caters to others, disregarding the potential of others perceiving them as fake, then yeah. I guess the "catering to others" part is what you mean by tone and method. If catering to others makes the caterer's self-interest implicit, rather than explicit, while being "real" is making one's self-interest explicit, then catering to others is pretty fake. Thing is, that's not exclusive to Fe'rs by a long shot.

Te people have tone too. Earnest, objectifying, impersonal, "get down to business" tone. "FFS, Feelings? No, let's do some WORK!" tone. People with Te way down the function order have tone too, but it has different notes. Same for Fe and for the relationship between tone and function order. Tone, as any INFP knows, delivers message. Tone corrects. All types have their own kind of leadership tone.

Some people demonstrate what everyone else must do, and that sets the tone, is the tone, of the organisation. Some people dictate. Some whine. Some do whatever it is that FJs do... cajole, smile, blush, flash boobies, get serious, look earnest... whatever. Tone.

Tone tells us something about what topic is to be expected and what method, and what goal. We could just ask the Fe'ers to SAY what goals they have, but that isn't working, and does indeed vary from one person to another. But what of tone?



There may be some other leadership treatise to work from. My self-help book is not yet ready for publication.

 

[Fidelia]

At first, it almost made me think, "is she being real/honest/authentic here, or is this back-handed in some way?"

Nope, I mean it 100%, not just being diplomatic. I'm more likely to say nothing (at least until I can predict the reaction and feel comfortable speaking openly) if I have some reservations/disagree etc than to blow smoke up anyone's butt in an attempt to get them to respond in a particular manner.

Thanks the taking the time to respond. There's a bunch I'd like to comment on here, and we've got company, so I'll just dash in for a bit and finish up later.

Re needing a mirror - I guess it's the thought equivalent to when you expect you look a certain way, but turn to a mirror for confirmation. You only pick certain mirrors that you know are reliable (not the wavy, green, fat or the make you look extra thin kind etc) and you are looking not to find out what you think of your looks or for someone else's assessment of them, but to confirm that the image you see jives with the picture that was in your mind's eye of yourself before you go out. If you deem adjustments need making based on that data, then they can be made at that time.

My emotions and thoughts are sort of the same way. I may have an immediate reaction to something (negative or positive). After a bit of thought, I probably will seek out someone whom I trust as level-headed and who has good judgement (or even more than one) to share my reaction with. Through the process of verbalizing it to them, it clarifies the issue for myself. (Kind of like how House doesn't get the answers from the people he works with, but needs their comments to come up with the conclusions he does). Usually I have an idea ahead of time of how they are likely to respond. If their response is quite different than I expect though, it may signal to me that there is either information or my own personal state which I have not given enough weight to and I will revisit my feelings on it before taking any action. Hope that makes sense.

I actually very much admire the fact that Fi seems rather self-contained. I have a hard time getting closure on something until I have had a chance to properly talk it out and lay it to rest. Without those missing puzzle pieces from the other person, it takes much longer for me to finish an issue in my head. Fi doesn't seem to work that way. That business of not having to rely on someone else for that is something that I envy at times. I also wish that I were actually able to keep my feelings from being written all over my face as Fi seems to be very effective at doing when it wants to. It sometimes creates even more disruption and conflict to not only be dealing with the emotion itself, but to be aware that everyone around me is observing that process too!

Talking about this kind of thing is pretty natural to me - doesn't feel at all vulnerable. I have a hard time remembering sometimes that what is comfortable to me would feel quite personal to a Fi user and I suppose that is why Te users find it difficult to imagine a few questions that they ask making Ti users feel challenged, invalidated or put on the spot in some way.

I think I would concur with your summary.

 

[Zarathustra]

Hope that makes sense.

It does.

Good to hear it explained that way, actually.

I have a feeling that next time, having heard it described this way, it will kinda lessen the bad taste it usually leaves in my mouth.

Talking about this kind of thing is pretty natural to me - doesn't feel at all vulnerable. I have a hard time remembering sometimes that what is comfortable to me would feel quite personal to a Fi user and I suppose that is why Te users find it difficult to imagine a few questions that they ask making Ti users feel challenged, invalidated or put on the spot in some way.

I have never once thought of it this way...

*determining whether to say something else here*

*not right now, maybe later*

 

[Kalach]

Perhaps "fake" with regards to truth, in the sense that Fe-users put aside certain emotions, in order to accomplish a greater objective, Te users might put aside certain parts of the truth, in order to accomplish the greater objective. It would be Te letting certain things slide that Ti would not want to let slide, for the purpose of accomplishing the imperative at hand. It would be the claim we always hear that Te prefers pragmatism, efficiency and getting the job done (Te) over precise, perfect, and immaculate truth (Ti) (that doesn't get the imperative accomplished).

Hmmm.... I am going to get skinned for this but "superficial" seems to better describe this as opposed to "fake" From where I am standing, Fe is about social pragmatism/efficiency where as I see Te as more impersonal pragmatism/efficiency. This is probably going to sound bad but I tend to bond with Te doms over idiocy and inefficiency.....lol

In the case of Te, efficiency is a cared-for thing, so is not of Te, per se. Te, ideally, identifies the efficiencies, but mostly only by drawing lines of logic between mechanism parts. The business of caring about one efficiency or another is a product of focus--a concern for a given body of knowledge or an interest in some project that has come into your purview.

So-o-o-o... if Fe is doing some similar thing for [the interactions of people], then... bingo blammo I don't knowbo, social chess, you guys have called it, but what is it really, the order of all real people?

Now, Te, we would want to say, however superficial, is not fail. It does what it's supposed to do, overlaying the world with lines of connection--cause/product, part/whole, beginning/end, stuff/nonsense--and these lines, however incomplete as far as a story of the principles involved, are "true". They exist, they're there, they're real. Knowledge of them can be counted on to tell you what is.

Thus, presumably, Fe cannot be fail either. The Fe quarterings of this into that and the other are meant to be real too.


Knowledge of the ley lines, the structures of the world according to Je, grants you teh powr. Or it grants you the sense that other people are wrong when they don't see and follow these lines at the times when they should. And if you're a normal person, you'll seek to know more about these lines and how they help you to do what you want to do.


Is "what you want to do" separate from the Fe lines?

 

[Southern Kross]

I don't see any reason to show annoyance and create possibly longlasting bad feeling if the problem was simply due to a factor such as me feeling tired, or lacking enough information, or needing to bounce my perspective off of someone I trust. I realize that Fi users seem a lot more self-sufficient in that sense, but I believe Fe really does need both time and that kind of mirroring for whether their perceptions are valid before they wish to take action.

To me that is not masking, because it's not that I want to indefinately stave off addressing my emotions. For me, it's usually borne out of a desire to be fair and reasonable. If I said the unedited version of my thoughts most times without a period of reflection or observation, I would most definitely hurt and rile up most of the Fi users I interact with. And what purpose would it have served? None, from my perspective.

It's also become apparent to me in a bunch of the Fe/Fi threads that Fe feels it's pointless to express something just for the sake of expressing it. Usually there is an objective in doing so. That's why it seemed incomprehensible at first to me on here that occasionally when a Fi user had a big public outburst that caused a bru-haha, there wasn't an envisioned plan of action or desired outcome, or the one presented seemed rather idealistic and inachievable. In short, I was looking for productive solutions so there was no longer a problem, while they were looking for authenticity and felt the need to be true to themselves and air out their feelings and call a spade a spade (probably said very offensively and clumsily here, but that's kind of what I took away from it).

OK, so I have some questions :

- You say you put little stock in your emotions, so what is it that you put faith in? Being so aware of your own fallibility (ie. in your feelings) what makes you trust your other methods of perception or reasoning? Or do you rely wholly on others for creating a balanced view?
- How much work does it take you to suppress those distrusted feelings? Is it a push-pull experience? Or does your lack of ownership of them (ie. because you think them just transitory) make it easy to distance yourself from them?
- How clearly can you separate your own emotions from your thinking. Can you easily distinguish when a conclusion/view etc is emotion based and what is not? or do you simply make your best attempt to ignore them and hope for the best?
- When a strong emotion overcomes you in the heat of the moment and you cannot help but express it (eg. you snap at someone in anger), do you still express it with an intention? Do you never just rant for example, without trying to affect others in some way? If not, how does that intention come across at such times?