Fe Fakeness

[Kalach]

How would you define this Fe universal? Do you see it as complete or partial?

At some point maybe the Fe people will talk about leadership, and then maybe whatever guides them can show itself. I'm getting the impression it's going to be hard to express properly without allowing that context can legitimately alter judgment, which I guess prima facie means partial "universals", except that there may end up being some higher-level principles to govern how context can alter judgment....


*just making stuff up now*


(And whoever organises this forum to go down each and every day at my lunchtime isn't helping.)

 

[chris1207]

Just got back from hanging with some friends for the night. Gonna rest up. No, I didn't even read the OP. I don't think I did. Let me go check...

Naw. I wasn't actively using emotions because of that.

Oh and I was feeling so smug because I've linked Fe=>Ni>Se=>Ti. Before it was like Fe=>Se or "RAWR" Inferior popping up Ti=>Ni, some times Fe=>Ni, which usually,>Se. A few instances in sales but more especially my love of linguistics were the only places where the first ever happened before. Now I see to have that kind of access much of the time.

 

[Kalach]

LEADERSHIP: set the topic; set the tone; repeat.

The relationship between topic and tone is method. Tone dictates which method applies; some methods require particular tone. Further, method is the province of those being led inasmuch as they are the workers and will use the method. So once you set the topic, leadership is all about tone.


/your mom

 

[Giggly]

lol Kalach is hilarious.

 

[Ginkgo]

LEADERSHIP: set the topic; set the tone; repeat.

The relationship between topic and tone is method. Tone dictates which method applies; some methods require particular tone. Further, method is the province of those being led inasmuch as they are the workers and will use the method. So once you set the topic, leadership is all about tone.


/your mom

What are you talking about?

 

[Kalach]

Leadership. Leading. Directing. Being Je.

How it comes about. And more importantly, why the Fe types won't say.

It's possible they literally don't know.


Yet it seems to be intimately tied to teh fakeness.

(And, when discussed, might resolve teh fakeness.) ("Might"? Pffft, WILL! I direct.)

 

[Zarathustra]

I think it's only part of it, K.

An overlooked, important part, though.

Btw, the repeated "your mom" stuff isn't good leadership.

 

[Glycerine]

Does that mean "Te" is fake? Equal opportunity discrimination.... how about it? LOL

 

[Zarathustra]

I'm not actually gunna respond to the mindless drivel above; playing with those so far below your mental capacity isn't really that interesting. That being said, it's pretty funny when one claims to have run circles around others due to their repeating the same mantra after the other has left the room. And, to top it off, to feel so much pride over one's "accomplishments"... truly hilarious... apparently I forgot one option: troll AND idiot.

 

[Zarathustra]

Does that mean "Te" is fake? Equal opportunity discrimination.... how about it? LOL

Perhaps "fake" with regards to truth, in the sense that Fe-users put aside certain emotions, in order to accomplish a greater objective, Te users might put aside certain parts of the truth, in order to accomplish the greater objective. It would be Te letting certain things slide that Ti would not want to let slide, for the purpose of accomplishing the imperative at hand. It would be the claim we always hear that Te prefers pragmatism, efficiency and getting the job done (Te) over precise, perfect, and immaculate truth (Ti) (that doesn't get the imperative accomplished).

Interesting angle you've brought in, [MENTION=5731]Kalach[/MENTION]...

 

[Glycerine]

Perhaps "fake" with regards to truth, in the sense that Fe-users put aside certain emotions, in order to accomplish a greater objective, Te users might put aside certain parts of the truth, in order to accomplish the greater objective. It would be Te letting certain things slide that Ti would not want to let slide, for the purpose of accomplishing the imperative at hand. It would be the claim we always hear that Te prefers pragmatism, efficiency and getting the job done (Te) over precise, perfect, and immaculate truth (Ti) (that doesn't get the imperative accomplished).

Interesting angle you've brought in, [MENTION=5731]Kalach[/MENTION]...

Hmmm.... I am going to get skinned for this but "superficial" seems to better describe this as opposed to "fake" From where I am standing, Fe is about social pragmatism/efficiency where as I see Te as more impersonal pragmatism/efficiency. This is probably going to sound bad but I tend to bond with Te doms over idiocy and inefficiency.....lol

 

[Ginkgo]

Leadership. Leading. Directing. Being Je.

How it comes about. And more importantly, why the Fe types won't say.

It's possible they literally don't know.


Yet it seems to be intimately tied to teh fakeness.

(And, when discussed, might resolve teh fakeness.) ("Might"? Pffft, WILL! I direct.)

Well if one tends to speak directively but in a way that caters to others, disregarding the potential of others perceiving them as fake, then yeah. I guess the "catering to others" part is what you mean by tone and method. If catering to others makes the caterer's self-interest implicit, rather than explicit, while being "real" is making one's self-interest explicit, then catering to others is pretty fake. Thing is, that's not exclusive to Fe'rs by a long shot.

 

[Ginkgo]

Perhaps "fake" with regards to truth, in the sense that Fe-users put aside certain emotions, in order to accomplish a greater objective, Te users might put aside certain parts of the truth, in order to accomplish the greater objective. It would be Te letting certain things slide that Ti would not want to let slide, for the purpose of accomplishing the imperative at hand. It would be the claim we always hear that Te prefers pragmatism, efficiency and getting the job done (Te) over precise, perfect, and immaculate truth (Ti) (that doesn't get the imperative accomplished).

Interesting angle you've brought in, [MENTION=5731]Kalach[/MENTION]...

I don't think "truth" as a whole is compromised by an Fe oriented approach to communication.

 

[Zarathustra]

Hmmm.... I am going to get skinned for this but "superficial" seems to better describe this as opposed to "fake"

I dunno.

I see where you're coming from, but...

Look, I see where you're coming from, in that "superficial" can work as well, but I don't know if it's necessarily better than fake.

Saying "superficial" denies that the deeper drive (in this case, Ti or Fi) exists, and I don't think that's an accurate thing to say.

I think the "fakeness" term is used because people see Fe users as having one emotion inside, but showing a different emotion on the outside. Similarly, Te users might, on the inside, know that the truth they're using to direct is not perfect, but they might not show this on the outside, in order to maintain the efficacy/integrity of the directive.

Kalach is pointing to the fact that, in each of these cases, this "fakeness" has to do with wanting to accomplish the imperative(s).

I think he has a good point.

 

[Zarathustra]

I don't think "truth" as a whole is compromised by an Fe oriented approach to communication.

That's a very ambiguous statement.

 

[Glycerine]

I dunno.

I see where you're coming from, but...

Look, I see where you're coming from, in that "superficial" can work as well, but I don't know if it's necessarily better than fake.

Saying "superficial" denies that the deeper drive (in this case, Ti or Fi) exists, and I don't think that's an accurate thing to say.

I think the "fakeness" term is used because people see Fe users as having one emotion inside, but showing a different emotion on the outside. Similarly, Te users might, on the inside, know that the truth they're using to direct is not perfect, but they might not show this on the outside, in order to maintain the efficacy/integrity of the directive.

Kalach is pointing to the fact that, in each of these cases, this "fakeness" has to do with wanting to accomplish the imperative(s).

I think he has a good point.

Like an "ulterior motive" sort of deal? I could see that. Kind of like those people that you get the sense that they are going to try to screw you over if they get mad at you or once they have utilized you or you just don't know where you stand and it's like you are a little pawn in their big game? That is fake but I would be hesitant to say it's mostly just Fe or Te users that take part in this sort of behavior.

But then again, they say ENFJs are master manipulators so what do i know? hah!

 

[Redbone]

Perhaps "fake" with regards to truth, in the sense that Fe-users put aside certain emotions, in order to accomplish a greater objective, Te users might put aside certain parts of the truth, in order to accomplish the greater objective. It would be Te letting certain things slide that Ti would not want to let slide, for the purpose of accomplishing the imperative at hand. It would be the claim we always hear that Te prefers pragmatism, efficiency and getting the job done (Te) over precise, perfect, and immaculate truth (Ti) (that doesn't get the imperative accomplished).

Interesting angle you've brought in, [MENTION=5731]Kalach[/MENTION]...

I can't remember where I've read it but people with Fe do not necessarily suppress or set aside certain emotions but substitute the "appropriate" emotion. That there was a sense of guilt, anger, or shame over feeling or worse, expressing, inappropriate social behavior or emotions. It mainly directed at dom and aux Fe but I see it applying to tert and inferior, too.

Gosh...I wish I could remember where I read this. It was intriguing. And disturbing.

 

[Zarathustra]

Like an "ulterior motive" sort of deal? I could see that. Kind of like those people that you get the sense that they are going to try to screw you over if they get mad at you or once they have utilized you or you just don't know where you stand and it's like you are a little pawn in their big game? That is fake but I would be hesitant to say it's mostly just Fe or Te users that take part in this sort of behavior.

But then again, they say ENFJs are master manipulators so what do i know? hah!

Yeah, and, I mean, this is the feeling I get when I'm around many E(S)TPs...

A bunch of salesmanship, but you can't really trust it.

 

[Zarathustra]

I can't remember where I've read it but people with Fe do not necessarily suppress or set aside certain emotions but substitute the "appropriate" emotion. That there was a sense of guilt, anger, or shame over feeling or worse, expressing, inappropriate social behavior or emotions. It mainly directed at dom and aux Fe but I see it applying to tert and inferior, too.

Gosh...I wish I could remember where I read this. It was intriguing. And disturbing.

Yeah, I can see this being the case.

But the point still stands that an emotion is experienced and then pushed aside/supplanted/what not.

The Fi-user is like, "I wouldn't push aside/supplant that emotion, but I can tell you are, and that's fake."

 

[Tiltyred]

Fi always sounds really easily confused to me. Fi seems like (from reading here) that unless you are extremely literal and practically pantomiming and acting out very broadly so that anyone speaking any language would be able to easily understand you, you are being fake. There's a lack of subtle discernment that drives me a little crazy. "I can tell because my super-refined feelings tell me so that you are not happy, you are actually something else! Because you are not acting the something else out at the moment, therefore you are FAKE!" Well, if you can tell it, why does it have to be acted out for you, too? It's like Fi is frustrated because they can't see something. They have a vague sense of something but they can't see it, and you have to make it really big for them so they won't have any doubt in their minds about what they're getting. Otherwise, they are suspicious of you. Like somehow unable to process more than one signal at a time and really easily confused.