PJ Harvey

[sleuthiness]

Like I said, nice lookin' hands down.

 

[Stanton Moore]

I think y'all are a lttle fixated on the idea of ISFP = artist. Who decided that anyway?

 

[sleuthiness]

I think y'all are a lttle fixated on the idea of ISFP = artist. Who decided that anyway?

That does seem true elsewhere, overall. But her, individually?

She's one from a handful who generally post with an understanding they could be incorrect, but some gardens bear more than others during certain parts of the year.

Gotta keep your priorities in line.

The question is, why e4 over e5?

 

[OrangeAppled]

I think y'all are a lttle fixated on the idea of ISFP = artist. Who decided that anyway?

On this board, to type an artist who produces creative & thoughtful music as an S is actually rarer. I think she's a great example of an intelligent ISFP, not the Keirsian Spicoli-esque SP.

Both her lyrical style & interviews I've read say ISFP to me though. It's not a conclusion I've jumped to based on popular opinion or stereotypes.

 

[sleuthiness]

On top of whatever so far, her thing for so/sp e54 infj Beefheart, support for and collaborations with his Magic Band have been well-documented.

I wonder how all of us would react if she came out to announce that she's always prefered sp/sx e45 infj Moz.

 

[Southern Kross]

ISFP, hands down. Definitely Se-aux with a focus on the tangible in lyrics (and not in a symbolic way) and a Fi type of focus on feelings.

Agreed. Her lyrics use a lot of sensory-based imagery:


I lost my heart
Under the bridge
To that little girl
So much to me
And now I'm old
And now I holler
She'll never know just what I found

That blue-eyed girl
She said no more
That blue-eyed girl
Became blue-eyed whore
Down by the water
I took her hand
Just like my daughter
See her again

Oh help me Jesus
Come through the storm
I had to lose her
To do her harm
I heard her holler
I heard her moan
My lovely daughter
I took her home

Little fish, big fish swimming in the water
Come back here man gimme my daughter

 

[Stanton Moore]

why does using sensory imagery mean one is a sensor? Doesn't most all story-telling use sensory imagery? Even Willam Blake uses words that describe concrete objects and events.

the lyrics in the above post are absolutely metaphorical. She doesn't literally mean that she lost her heart under a bridge.

 

[INTP]

Agreed. Her lyrics use a lot of sensory-based imagery:


...[/I]

all i see is metaphors related to feelings instead of objective facts.

why does using sensory imagery mean one is a sensor? Doesn't most all story-telling use sensory imagery? Even Willam Blake uses words that describe concrete objects and events.

because people are trying too hard to find evidence on totally unrelated things

 

[Orangey]

because people are trying too hard to find evidence on totally unrelated things

As though you're above it.

 

[Southern Kross]

why does using sensory imagery mean one is a sensor? Doesn't most all story-telling use sensory imagery? Even Willam Blake uses words that describe concrete objects and events.

the lyrics in the above post are absolutely metaphorical. She doesn't literally mean that she lost her heart under a bridge.

No, I meant, focusing a lot on the 5 senses (well, the 10-11 senses if we are being more precise) and bodily feeling, which is very Se. And of course she uses metaphor, all songwriters do - both S and N - same goes for concrete imagery. The way Sensors and Intuitors use both, is different though.

And who said William Blake wasn't a sensor?

 

[INTP]

As though you're above it.

well, im not concentrating on any details too much, because thats trying to find evidence too hard. instead i try to see the big picture(that i have been forming for few years from her music, interviews, backstage material and other bonus stuff on her dvd) and see what her type most likely is. im not saying that she is IFJ for 100% sure, she could just as well be IXTP or IXFP, but no way in hell she is a Te aux.

 

[Stanton Moore]

No, I meant, focusing a lot on the 5 senses (well, the 10-11 senses if we are being more precise) and bodily feeling, which is very Se. And of course she uses metaphor, all songwriters do - both S and N - same goes for concrete imagery. The way Sensors and Intuitors use both, is different though.

And who said William Blake wasn't a sensor?

Can you explain the difference to me?


I certainly won't claim type for anyone. What I know without any doubt is that Blake was a mystic and an artist.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I wonder how all of us would react if she came out to announce that she's always prefered sp/sx e45 infj Moz.

The mention of Morrissey is interesting.... Let's compare my favorite INFJ to PJ (who I still say is ISFP). Morrissey is a great example of an INFJ lyricist, because I see his style in other INFJs. Put aside the melodramatic feelings he expresses & consider the structure of the songs. He often creates a character of sorts (usually a tragic figure), and tells a story (a tragic one), using literal details & situations. However straight-forward this seems, the entire story, character & situations are one big allegory of sorts. Unlike Ne types who are more likely to use direct metaphor, NiSe types use an entire situation with literal/tangible details to parallel a concept (in Moz's case, usually a tragic feeling or perspective). Another typical trait of NFJs is to embody a persona, openly embrace the image, and encourage others to identify with it. It's a Fe way of connecting via making themselves a universal symbol (Ni) for something others can relate to.

Fi types do not embrace a persona so openly. They may have one, but they will insist it is simply who they are (not any conscious creation), and they will distance themselves from those who try to identify with it via a defined style. They instead preach individuality, and may only seek to inspire others to find their unique self, not to identify with them specifically. However, many do have a persona, do enjoy being a symbol, but its simply less deliberate. Fi types become accidentally iconic.

What does this have to do with PJ? I'd say her quotes & general attitude fit the Fi mold. As for her preferred way of perceiving, her lyrics are heavily sensory based. All writers will use metaphor and imagery, etc, but it's the way its used & where the focus is. Her focus is not to create an allegory the way a Ni type would or use direct metaphor like Ne types usually do. The communication is quite direct & literal as far as writing goes.

Another example:

On a rooftop in Brooklyn
One in the morning
Watching the lights flash
In Manhattan
I see five bridges
The empire state building
And you said something
That I've never forgotten

We lean against railings
Describing the colours
And the smells of our homelands
Acting like lovers
How did we get here?
To this point of living?
I held my breath
And you said something

And I am doing nothing wrong
Riding in your car
Your radio playing
We sing up to the eighth floor
A rooftop, in Manhattan
One in the morning
When you said something
That I've never forgotten
When you said something
That was really important


Of course the whole song is meant to describe a feeling, such as wistfulness, & to describe a pivotal point in a relationship, but the focus is also to evoke the tangible experiences attached to such feelings, not a story as a symbol of a concept. The distinction is where the focus is, as neither SeNi nor NiSe use direct metaphor as heavily as a Ne type, but the Ni type is still heavily symbolic, where as the Se type is trying to describe & communicate individual, real life experience first and foremost. Strangely enough, this does make an ISFP sometimes harder to tell apart from an INFJ than an INFP, when considering their artwork that is. The idea is whether the symbol of the story in the song is larger than the literal experience it is trying to evoke; with PJ, I say no, the experience is the point. And how is it seeking to connect to the listener? Is it seeking to create a shared bond (Fe) or to identify a common internal feeling from one's own individual experience (Fi)? Again, I see PJ as fitting the FiSe style lyrically.

I say Fi thinking is responsible for her poetic touches, the need to universalize feelings seen as basic to all humans, the use of metaphor now & then, as that's what is leading. I just don't see N style communication in her lyrics.

 

[Southern Kross]

^ Interesting analysis.

Can you explain the difference to me?


I certainly won't claim type for anyone. What I know without any doubt is that Blake was a mystic and an artist.

Its difficult to define. I guess to reiterate what OrangeAppled said, the main distinction is that Sensor lyricists like to establish a sense of place or sensation in a moment and use that to reflect on an emotional state. There is more consistency and a more natural flow from one idea to another and from the metaphoric to the concrete or vice versa. For the Intuitive songwriters the flow is more of thematic nature. They may start with tangible imagery but then make mental leaps to seemingly unrelated things that are linked by a concept.

Here is an example of another song with similar imagery (a river) and subject matter (loss, murder, denial). This one, however is by INFJ, Neil Young instead. Notice the difference - there's less tangible imagery and more conceptual but also has the abstract leaps in thought:

Be on my side,
I'll be on your side,
baby
There is no reason
for you to hide
It's so hard for me
staying here all alone
When you could be
taking me for a ride.

Yeah, she could drag me
over the rainbow,
send me away
Down by the river
I shot my baby
Down by the river,
Dead, oh, shot her dead.

You take my hand,
I'll take your hand
Together we may get away
This much madness
is too much sorrow
It's impossible
to make it today.

Yeah, she could drag me
over the rainbow,
send me away
Down by the river
I shot my baby
Down by the river,
Dead, oh, shot her dead.

Be on my side,
I'll be on your side,
baby
There is no reason
for you to hide
It's so hard for me
staying here all alone
When you could be
taking me for a ride.

Yeah, she could drag me
over the rainbow,
send me away
Down by the river
I shot my baby
Down by the river,
Dead, oh, shot her dead.


And I don't have a definitive sense of Blake's type either except that I believe him to be IXFP. It can be difficult to tell with the Romantics as their focus was so strongly on the natural world, and other such very sensory things, regardless of whether they were Sensors or Intuitives. This can be distracting when typing them.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

ISTP 5w4.

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ Interesting analysis.


Its difficult to define. I guess to reiterate what OrangeAppled said, the main distinction is that Sensor lyricists like to establish a sense of place or sensation in a moment and use that to reflect on an emotional state. There is more consistency and a more natural flow from one idea to another and from the metaphoric to the concrete or vice versa. For the Intuitive songwriters the flow is more of thematic nature. They may start with tangible imagery but then make mental leaps to seemingly unrelated things that are linked by a concept.

Thank you. This articulates a main point I was making also....it's hard to pinpoint these differences in words sometimes.

 

[sleuthiness]

Additional quotes:

"It’s so much in me to want to keep experimenting all the time. It’s just inherent. Therefore I keep reaching for instruments I don’t particularly know how to play, and then I become excited. That gives me energy to want to make new things, and it forces me to hear things in new ways, which then can only help to say things in a new way."

"I think as a person and a writer I thrive on extremes and I feel inspired by extremes in life."

"I found the best thing to do is put yourself in quite a fearful situation."

"I love constantly being plunged into the new and having to see things with new eyes. Every different country you’re unfamiliar with and so trying to find a post office becomes a new and exciting experience. And just the fact of seeing the beauty of things."

"I was just looking for something that was new [while prepping for what became White Chalk], something to excite me because it was new, because it was unknown, because it was frightening. Anything like that that I was out of my depth with."

"I don't feel attached to [my songs once they're recorded]. They kind of do themselves, and they're nothing to do with me any more."

"There's too much of everything in the world."

“[O]ne doesn’t have to be suffering to show suffering, you can orchestrate that. And I think in some ways when you’re not suffering yourself, you can present it in a much clearer way because you have that perspective, stepping back and looking at it. [...] I’d agree with you that a lot of the people I find funniest to be around are people whose work can be very dark. It doesn’t mean that they’re dark people at all, it just means they have a certain sensitivity or a certain insight in being able to present that."

"With [Let England Shake]...it took me a long time to find the right voice: I didn't want too much weight in my voice, because it made the words too self-important. I finally found the right way in which to sing them, and often that voice is quite small and quite volatile, and can move all over the place."

(Interviewer above remarks that her voice has an "ambiguous lightness" to it.)

Granted, she does consistently use words like feel, feelings, felt, etc.

In summation:

• Self-described "inherent" need to experiment
• overwhelmingly counterphobic tendancies
• predominant use of sensory-based imagery (assuming everyone else agrees)

 

[pinkgraffiti]

i think ISFP rather than INFP, and you're going to criticize me for this, but I just "feel" that she's different from me and that i can't understand her, so.... I mean, I've been listening to her music for over 10 years and i respect her a lot but I've always felt that she was on a different plane that I didn't quite empathize with and....I have no problem understanding INFPs, so ISFP.

what is more interesting is her enneagram. i was watching this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzmMB8dTwGs and 4w5 sx/sp just jumped out of the screen to me. I'd never noticed that "fragile" side before, but it reminded me of people i know that are 4w5 and i think she's there. so, what do you think is her enneagram?

PS: also, remembering her live concert with bjork in....1995? what did they sing?! anyway, they never really matched....i really think PJ is a sensor anyway.

 

[Speed Gavroche]

INFP 4w5 Sx/Sp you idiots...

 

[Masokissed]

She's underrated in the way only a 4 can be.

ISFP