[Type 8] 8's and w8s- Being too blunt?

[Jaguar]

Lol. That'll do it.

 

[JustHer]

and here I thought I was a thrill seeker

 

[Moiety]

It may not be 'fair' that you have to account for their 'issue' with your spoken communication. They 'should' be able to account for their own mental biases when they process what you say. But, well, that's just how people work..

Why should it be just about words then? Should we account for other people's mental biases when they process everything we do too?

Also, it can be kind of arrogant to think you can spot people's mental biases just like that...I know you are an ENFP, like me, and we can be good at it, but still...

 

[Windigo]

This happens to me fairly often, but it's not usually because of abrassiveness, it's moreso ignorance. I find it hard to understand why people get upset about some things that seem completely emotionless to me. It's usually Fe like stuff, when this kind of thing happens, I consult someone else, and they analyse what happened, and I end up realizing that I'm never going to understand why they were upset, and then I usually just let it slide. I remember one gal that I upset simply by saying I'll go to some concert and then pulling out a moment later because it clashes with exams. It doesn't seem upsetting at all, but I asked someone else and they said that I was wrong to do that. That makes me feel pretty guilty... but wtf???

I completely understand.

For me, after re-entering the dating scene when my first husband died I took a few years off to mourn and re-evaluate my priorities. When men would ask me out I would always ask to go dutch on the first date. Then on the date I would lay out my expectations and what would and would not be acceptable to me. (Example don't expect to sleep with me anytime soon).

My girlfriends thought I was insane for doing this. And several men were very upset and would call me and harass me because of my unreasonable demands.

I would laugh and say, Look, I don't want there to be any confusion about this. It's better for you to know what kind of person I am from the beginning before all the warm fuzzy endorphins confuse things and we have to go through this nasty process of disentanglement once we've realized that we just can't live with each other!

I saw it as cutting to the chase and being honest about what was going on. I knew that the kind of man I would want to be with would appreciate my boldness and my confidence. Why bother with the rest? Look they didn't even have to pay for my dinner, what's to complain about?

Does this make me an 8 or just a scary ENTJ?

 

[garbage]

Why should it be just about words then? Should we account for other people's mental biases when they process everything we do too?

This is all about communication. If our goal in something that we do is to effectively communicate a message to another person, then, yes, we should account for their biases.

Also, it can be kind of arrogant to think you can spot people's mental biases just like that...I know you are an ENFP, like me, and we can be good at it, but still...

I'm simply trying to frame the notion of 'bluntness' in a different way, one that might allow it to be tempered when necessary. This has nothing to do with what I am personally capable of, and I didn't mean to imply that it did.

In fact, if I were to claim that I could read people so accurately, I'd be no different than those people who think that they can somehow objectively type people. And we all know how annoying they are..

I go into conversations with the assumption that there is a huge possibility that I'm completely wrong about the other person's motivations and biases. I have to be extremely quick to correct my perceptions about other people, because it's very easy to be wrong about them.

I did gloss over the whole 'understanding the other person' thing, which is, of course, a prerequisite for 'tailoring communication to the other person'.

So, my statement is, in fact, an ideal. One can never completely and accurately account for the perception of another person. But, to the extent that it is possible, trying to do so makes for more effective communication.

Communication is a two-way street, but each of us can only control our portion of it. We do, however, have complete control over our portion.

 

[BlackCat]

Does this make me an 8 or just a scary ENTJ?

Sounds pretty 8. 8's control the environment and world around them to avoid being betrayed and controlled themselves. So by laying everything out from the start, you were controlling how the relationship would go based on how you wanted it so that you wouldn't waste your time and his time. Sounds pretty 8.

And because of this, 8 relationships are based a lot around trust. To trust their partners to not betray them. When this happens, 8's stop the control thing because they feel safe.

 

[Windigo]

Sounds pretty 8. 8's control the environment and world around them to avoid being betrayed and controlled themselves. So by laying everything out from the start, you were controlling how the relationship would go based on how you wanted it so that you wouldn't waste your time and his time. Sounds pretty 8.

And because of this, 8 relationships are based a lot around trust. To trust their partners to not betray them. When this happens, 8's stop the control thing because they feel safe.

That makes a lot of sense to me. I don't actually LIKE being controlling. (Maybe perhaps I scored equally as a 7) I actually like to be in situations where there is an element of surprise such as traveling in Europe and finding myself in some quaint sea side village because the train to a major city that I had planned wasn't running that day.

Some of the most pleasant moments of my life have been accidental. I like to describe my way as a trapeze artist. I want to know the framework is structurally sound and then I can trust it to do amazing feats of derring do and even surprise myself with a few forays from the routine.

But I hate having no control or being completely blindsided by someone I thought I trusted. I think perhaps that is the most irritating thing in the world to me, to have my trust broken.

 

[FDG]

For me, after re-entering the dating scene when my first husband died I took a few years off to mourn and re-evaluate my priorities. When men would ask me out I would always ask to go dutch on the first date. Then on the date I would lay out my expectations and what would and would not be acceptable to me. (Example don't expect to sleep with me anytime soon).

Lol, that's scary

 

[Windigo]

Lol, that's scary

I know! But it worked! I managed to find a great partner without all the emotional chaos and heart break.

I realized I don't like the initial phase of dating when you are rocketing between the highs and lows (That's why I ride rollercoasters).I guess it's part of the 8 not being able to trust yet so I feel out of control. I find the romance of true love much more satisfying and fun.

 

[Sinmara]

And because of this, 8 relationships are based a lot around trust. To trust their partners to not betray them. When this happens, 8's stop the control thing because they feel safe.

This has been a major theme in my life when dealing with friends and loved ones. I've always said that when I'm with someone I trust without reservation, I feel safe, and that safe feeling is very important to me. It means a lot to me that I can let my guard down and be natural. The moment someone betrays my trust, they get door-slammed, cut out of my life like the cancer they are, and nothing short of a miracle will convince me to allow them back into my good graces again. I'm not going to waste my time and energy dealing with piecing the relationship back together when I know they're just going to do it to me again. Better to appear as an unreasonable bitch than have to live my life knowing there's a fox in the hen house.

I have been told that my expectation of loyalty makes me completely and utterly unreasonable. No one can live up to my expectations, people have told me.

Respect me, respect yourself, stand up for me as I would stand up for you. What's so hard about that?

I find it incredibly sad and pathetic that so many people don't want to be held to the expectation that they would be loyal to their friends and wouldn't betray them.

It's like a punch in the gut and it makes me angry when I see someone tolerating a loved one's betrayal. Be it husband or wife, girlfriend or boyfriend, there is nothing worse than someone you've given your heart to treating you carelessly and betraying your trust. I don't understand why they'd keep the person around after they've treated them with such blatant disrespect and made such a huge breach of contract. If they think so little of you, time to kick them to the curb and start over with someone better deserving of your affections.

 

[kyuuei]

Some people don't think of me as very blunt, but I know I can be. This is especially true with family, and close friends, though the motivations are more out of respect for them to tell them the truth moreso than the sort of bluntness I do with strangers.

With strangers: A classic case of my blunt mouth coming out is a recent conversation with an advisor I had at my school that had caused a huge fuss already.. She nonchalantly tells me, "Did you send the email?" 'What email?' "The email with your student ID, name, and that you need to be certified." 'I've never heard of this before.. could you help me?' (I asked this because she never actually gave me an address to email it to.) To which she replies, "Well, you can do this yourself anytime.." And I stand up and just say loud enough for the cubicles next to us to hear, 'If you're that reluctant to help me, just SAY so and I'll ask someone else for this information and their assistance ma'am.' She straightens up, and says, "No no, I can help you this time, here is the address..." ..

Classic example around family: I was having another talk with my youngest sister about how she talks and treats her mother, and how that's affecting her mother. She starts to cry and I ask what is making her cry, and she states, "When you say things like that you make me sound like a bad person!" and I reply, "I'm only telling you what I've seen you do. If those actions make you a bad person, you should be happy that you're finally realizing that they're bad, so you can correct them.. and then you won't have a reason to cry anymore." .... To me, I was being compassionate by opening her eyes to things from people outside of herself.. to her, I was being crude and brutal when it wasn't necessary to do so..

 

[Windigo]

Classic example around family: I was having another talk with my youngest sister about how she talks and treats her mother, and how that's affecting her mother. She starts to cry and I ask what is making her cry, and she states, "When you say things like that you make me sound like a bad person!" and I reply, "I'm only telling you what I've seen you do. If those actions make you a bad person, you should be happy that you're finally realizing that they're bad, so you can correct them.. and then you won't have a reason to cry anymore." .... To me, I was being compassionate by opening her eyes to things from people outside of herself.. to her, I was being crude and brutal when it wasn't necessary to do so..

This sounds like the interaction between me and my older sister when I was still in my teens. LOL! Your response sounds exactly like hers!

 

[brainheart]

This thread has me leaning more towards 9w8 for myself... grr....


EDIT: but then i read the RH chapter on 8 and it sounds nothing like me, while 1, 1 is totally there...

 

[Elfboy]

other people tell me I'm too assertive, but I just don't think I am. in fact, I think being too assertive is an oxymoron since being assertive is taking both parties best interests into account. that being said, being type 8 doesn't mean I go around talking like Indiana Jones all day (I am an NF after all lol). I like to think my approach is a little more empathetic, even if it is extremely honest and direct.

 

[Chloe]

Hahaha - you are awesome!!!
With sister's examle you sound compassionate! I love bluntness+integrity whoch you seem to have!

What type is ur sister?

Maybe 9

Some people don't think of me as very blunt, but I know I can be. This is especially true with family, and close friends, though the motivations are more out of respect for them to tell them the truth moreso than the sort of bluntness I do with strangers.

With strangers: A classic case of my blunt mouth coming out is a recent conversation with an advisor I had at my school that had caused a huge fuss already.. She nonchalantly tells me, "Did you send the email?" 'What email?' "The email with your student ID, name, and that you need to be certified." 'I've never heard of this before.. could you help me?' (I asked this because she never actually gave me an address to email it to.) To which she replies, "Well, you can do this yourself anytime.." And I stand up and just say loud enough for the cubicles next to us to hear, 'If you're that reluctant to help me, just SAY so and I'll ask someone else for this information and their assistance ma'am.' She straightens up, and says, "No no, I can help you this time, here is the address..." ..

Classic example around family: I was having another talk with my youngest sister about how she talks and treats her mother, and how that's affecting her mother. She starts to cry and I ask what is making her cry, and she states, "When you say things like that you make me sound like a bad person!" and I reply, "I'm only telling you what I've seen you do. If those actions make you a bad person, you should be happy that you're finally realizing that they're bad, so you can correct them.. and then you won't have a reason to cry anymore." .... To me, I was being compassionate by opening her eyes to things from people outside of herself.. to her, I was being crude and brutal when it wasn't necessary to do so..

 

[rav3n]

This thread is interesting since it appears to put 8's on the defensive. There's an element of "good" and "bad", "right" and "wrong".

Good = Acting in a way that's socially acceptable.
Bad = Acting in a way that's socially threatening.

As a consideration for 8's, rather than look at it in terms of "good" and "bad", why not look at it as consequences to actions. If you're fine or neutral with the consequences of your actions, then it's all moot. But if you find yourself on the defensive from consequences, then perhaps it's best to scale back on your bluntness.

835 or 8w7 here and that's my perspective on this subject.

 

[Elfboy]

This thread is interesting since it appears to put 8's on the defensive. There's an element of "good" and "bad", "right" and "wrong".

Good = Acting in a way that's socially acceptable.
Bad = Acting in a way that's socially threatening.

As a consideration for 8's, rather than look at it in terms of "good" and "bad", why not look at it as consequences to actions. If you're fine or neutral with the consequences of your actions, then it's all moot. But if you find yourself on the defensive from consequences, then perhaps it's best to scale back on your bluntness.

835 or 8w7 here and that's my perspective on this subject.

when you put it that way, it makes me think maybe I should be MORE blunt

 

[rav3n]

when you put it that way, it makes me think maybe I should be MORE blunt

Up to you, as long as you're either neutral or happy with the consequences.

 

[highlander]

I've been a bit 8ish lately. It is a situation with a very aggressive goal and timeframe at work. I'm working 100 hours a week. I find that I am reverting back to that assertiveness, needing to have control, confronting people and expanding my influence. As examples, I've done the following: 1) removed one person from my project within 3 days, 2) directly confronted the fact that another person in a leadership role wasn't working out, and 3) am encroaching on another person's responsibility where the job isn't getting done. My team is delivering but I find that I seem to be focused on expanding that. If I didn't understand what an 8 was, I don't think I'd completely understand what I'm doing and why. I'm overwhelmed by a need to assert my influence over things I'm not directly responsible for, and as an INTJ, am focusing on the big picture of how things are turning out overall. So, I'm being pretty direct, assertive, and focused on what is the best for the project overall regardless as to personal consequences. I am trying to consciously understand what I am doing and temper it.

I'm afraid I'm coming on strong, confrontational or generally obnoxious. I confided in someone today and they seemed surprised and said they were afraid they were doing exactly the same thing. Maybe I need a bit of sleep .

 

[mmhmm]

I've been a bit 8ish lately. It is a situation with a very aggressive goal and timeframe at work. I'm working 100 hours a week. I find that I am reverting back to that assertiveness, needing to have control, confronting people and expanding my influence. As examples, I've done the following: 1) removed one person from my project within 3 days, 2) directly confronted the fact that another person in a leadership role wasn't working out, and 3) am encroaching on another person's responsibility where the job isn't getting done. My team is delivering but I find that I seem to be focused on expanding that. If I didn't understand what an 8 was, I don't think I'd completely understand what I'm doing and why. I'm overwhelmed by a need to assert my influence over things I'm not directly responsible for, and as an INTJ, am focusing on the big picture of how things are turning out overall. So, I'm being pretty direct, assertive, and focused on what is the best for the project overall regardless as to personal consequences. I am trying to consciously understand what I am doing and temper it.

I'm afraid I'm coming on strong, confrontational or generally obnoxious. I confided in someone today and they seemed surprised and said they were afraid they were doing exactly the same thing. Maybe I need a bit of sleep .

i'm definitely more 8 at work than anywhere else.

i'm fairly unapologetic about my bluntness, and i can look at a crying
staff straight in the eye and tell them that their tears isn't helping
their cause and only reinforces my decision. as i'm aware of what
that bluntness contains : just facts. but most people have such a
hard time hearing the truth when it comes to work, mix that up
with cultural practices and fuck, there are moments where i'm thinking
does every little thing have to be so personal with these people?

it's business. nothing wrong with making mistakes, just own up
and learn from it. and move on. have a little accountability.
then perhaps the compassion would come. taking no responsibility
in what you do doesn't deserve any understanding.