[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[tkae.]

^^^^
I think CzeCze is spot on here. When an Fi user expresses their Fi in a socially (inappropriate / clueless / tactless / honest with no fake Fe BS) kind of way, this usually has nothing to do with the people surrounding the Fi-user. Or perhaps, more correctly, if it rocks the social boat then this is not necessarily intentional. In fact, it's probably almost never intentional.

What you have to remember is that when push comes to shove, Fi is about speaking the truth. A young Fi user may not even realize why their truthiness (thank you Mr. Colbert) causes such an uproar. Your friend may have been puzzled by your irritated response. From her perspective, she was just telling you how she felt.

The above explanation, of course, doesn't excuse whinyness and immaturity. Most Fi users would not deliberately want to bring down the mood of a room full of people. For example, it is an important Fi value to me that I make everyone around me feel comfortable. So I work very hard at being aware of other people's feelings. But when I was in my early 20s I needed to practice this a lot to get it right.

Let me suggest another way you could have responded that perhaps would have satisfied you both in that you would have acknowledged her feelings (important to Fi) and still expressed your exasperation and rectified the situation. I think the key for Fe users when communicating with Fi users about an Fi driven behavior that the Fe user has a problem with, is to remind the Fi users of how what she is doing violates her Fi values. For example, instead of publicly rebuking her, you could pull her over to the side and say with empathy, "I'm sorry the game isn't working for you, but by being so vocal about it you're making it difficult for the others to enjoy themselves." I know if you had said that to me, I would have probably had to choke back my tears while I was apologizing. My guilt would have been immense. And, (I think this is an Fi thing) I would have needed 20 minutes alone in the powder room to regroup. Then I would have come out as the life of the party... determined to make everyone else as comfortable as possible.

Let me reiterate that the key points are:

• A private reprimand. It is very easy for an Fi user to perceive that the Fe user is using the group dynamic to control them. And, it is my experience that this is a natural way Fe handles certain situations. It may seem reasonable to you, an Fe user, to do this, but you need to be aware that this is possibly the worst and most-counterproductive move you can make when trying to communicate with an Fi user. To say it is very poorly received by the Fi user is the understatement of the year. The moment the Fi user smells this, bi-directional communication is over. For the Fi user it becomes, "How dare you try to gang up on me. You are trying to control me." This diverts attention away from the original problem.
  
• Refer to Other Fi Values. For the Fi user (or at least for me) there are values and then there are VALUES. Yes, me being honest about my feelings is an important value to me. But not making others uncomfortable is a far more important value. You, the Fe user, can use this to your advantage by reminding the Fi user that their behavior is conflicting with another of their Fi values. If you can do this, you'll be a black belt in Fi user inter-relations in no time.

I think Fi users speak to each other in symbolic value statements that may sound, to the Fe user, like a secret, unintelligible code. But what's really going on is Fi users referring to values (in the abstract / archetypal sense) with each other. Think of it sort of like Fi users constantly using fables to make their points. I don't think I'm explaining this very well, but maybe it will help if I tell you that I'm able to look at a situation and almost instantly crystallize it into 3 or 4 values that are in operation. I naturally (perhaps from years of practice) know which are the "Most Important" values at play. And, I work very hard to stay true to those values.

So as an Fe user, if you can figure out some of these archetypal values at play, and then refer to them, it's sort of like you're speaking Fi language. I'll get it... in a way all the finger wagging in the world won't communicate.

I hope this helps some Fe users who have asked me how to respond to an Fi user they are having problems with.

================

About the INTPs... I have several realllllly good INTP friends. But I have noticed that when they get into their "yuck, yay, or boo place" (Thank you Mr. CzeCze.) they will express these emotions at socially inappropriate times. I've never interpreted this as a lack of Fe awareness but more of a dominance of Ti-ness which can have maudlin tendencies. In other words, their Ti expressions override their social radar and they can just start kvetching in a way that it brings down the mood of the room. And, put two INTPs together that synch up their kvetching.... it is not a pretty, or pleasant sight.

This explains why I tend to be such a renegade all the time

When I say something, it's not open for debate. You can continue the argument by giving me new topics to delineate on, but you can't refute something I've said because I said it for one reason: it feels like the truth to me.

If you're refuting one of my statements, you're attacking me personally. The only way to ever get me to agree with you is to get me to spin my argument in circles until I realize that I'm wrong. If you try to tell me I'm wrong, I'll give you the finger and tell you to fuck off.

Mostly because in High School I got tormented for my Fi, so now I get very defensive when someone directly disagrees with something I say. If you want to understand what I'm saying or let me work myself into realizing that it's wrong, that's one thing. To come at me directly is an act of war, and I immediately close up shop and clamp down my clam shell when someone's being aggressive.

This is why I do not get along well with Thinkers. I don't even get along with strong-voiced Feelers. If someone comes at me, I will resist. I've just spent so much time having my Fi bullied that it's a triggering defense to an almost alternate personality. I use my shadow functions often as defense mechanisms.

 

[Thalassa]

Hee hee, that "I'm not having fun" scenario - I can understand your frustration. It probably felt like she was failing at a "duty" as a guest to at least try to keep the atmosphere civil. I'm Fi but I have had this complaint numerous times about my Fe (INTP) friend. Perhaps she is actually INFP though... Sometimes she gets into funks or starts bringing the group down and then others (like myself usually) have to start tapdancing our way around it and counter it.

For your friend though, yeah, she really didn't to play that game! LOL. Unrefined Fi without the polish of articulation or processing, it's basically the needs of a child sometime. Hey, we all have an inner child inside of us, in some ways Fi just puts the user much more in touch with them. I think I'm usually pretty level and diplomatic but sometimes I get this gut feeling of "yuck" or "yay!" or "boo!" and it just comes out like that. If I don't like something or I am annoyed it is very hard to mask it. Even when I try to mask it, my friends (and people I date) can tell immediately and tell me how obvious it is. Your friend probably could have articulated it better (processed that gut Fi response) but you know, she really must not have been having fun. LOL. I don't think she meant it as an attack on you at all, I'm just thinking for me, when I have those gut responses, I am so in grips of it, it's purely directed at the thing piquing me. Because her Fi got piqued, her normal tact went out the window. She could have had a ball the whole night and thought you put on the best get together ever - and that game will just be it's own separate unpleasant moment in her head.

In general, Fi users generally will try to keep it to themselves if they are in a funk. HOWEVER, people who are really in the grips of Fi won't even be aware of how much their mood or whatnot is affecting others or the group.



You're mean.

LOLOL.

I don't think she's mean at all, I think it was rude and childish of her friend to be whining that her games were boring for multiple games....even if she was thinking it, or just chose not to participate, she didn't have to be rude. I didn't do things like that even when I was in high school.

Sometimes when people talk about Fi I don't relate, but everyone keeps telling me I have Fi.

 

[Thalassa]

Cool! Long replies!!!

She's done that many other times so I was questioning her sensitivity. So Fi isn't as tactful as Fe--though that should be obvious, I guess I just didn't make that connection. So she's not just mean or something--just caught up in her Fi. Thanks for the explanations!!!

I guess you're right in that Fi users need to work on noticing what their affect is on others--I'm pretty sure if I whined about games she created herself being boring multiple times, she'd be hurt, too. (And Fe users need to work on not getting butthurt when people aren't being perfectly tactful.)

Fi may be less tactful, but it's also no reason to act like a self-absorbed brat. I mean COME ON. She's done it MANY other times?

 

[OrangeAppled]

I don't think she's mean at all, I think it was rude and childish of her friend to be whining that her games were boring for multiple games....even if she was thinking it, or just chose not to participate, she didn't have to be rude. I didn't do things like that even when I was in high school.

I thought it was rude too, and I'd never say/do something like that. When I was a teen, my friends' parents actually commented to my parents that I was more polite than any of their other kids' friends. Sometimes these anecdotes puzzle me; my first reaction is often to question the accuracy of the typing, and my second reaction is to write the behavior off as that individual, not a prime example of a thought process in general. I mean, I can't explain that behavior. I don't think insensitivity is a Fi thing. Sensitivity works both ways; it means I am sensitive, but I also am sensitive for & towards others' feelings.

 

[tkae.]

I thought it was rude too, and I'd never say/do something like that. When I was a teen, my friends' parents actually commented to my parents that I was more polite than any of their other kids' friends. Sometimes these anecdotes puzzle me; my first reaction is often to question the accuracy of the typing, and my second reaction is to write the behavior off as that individual, not a prime example of a thought process in general. I mean, I can't explain that behavior. I don't think insensitivity is a Fi thing. Sensitivity works both ways; it means I am sensitive, but I also am sensitive for & towards others' feelings.

It depends, I guess.

If it were an isolated incident, I'd understand that. I tend to be really whiny anyways (one of my professors threatens to "do horrible things to me" pretty often over it), but I draw a clear distinction between being whiny and actually being rude. I may be incredibly whiny, but I'm very often complimented for being polite and courteous. Only once have I been so whiny that I actually was told I was bordering on impolite. I'd be much more likely to whine for one game and quit playing than to keep playing and keep whining. And even then, I'd say that it just wasn't the sort of game I liked rather than attacking the game itself.

Fi doesn't necessarily mean nice and sensitive all the time though.

Especially (if not exclusively) when I'm stressed, I'll be much more antagonistic and openly hostile. I'll let it show pretty clearly that I'm functioning at a high stress level, and if people are insensitive or rude enough to press on me when I'm making it clear that I'm not in a good mood, I'll bite back and really sink my teeth in. Fi doesn't mean I'm necessarily gonna be nice, it just means that whatever I'm feeling I'm gonna feel pretty potently. So if I'm feeling angry, then that's what I'm feeling.

But like I said. If this is a common thing, then that's a different matter altogether.

 

[Random Ness]

it's a bit... well, it's like "you're going to have fun doing my activity, and if you don't, you can go away, and i will organize something else for you to do far away from me."

Um. I think you misunderstand either me or Fe users in general. It is more: "The group is having fun doing this. If you aren't having fun doing this, then go do something else that will be fun for you. I want every individual to be having fun [unless someone insults me]."

3. maybe she even felt like she was doing others a favor by speaking up and pointing out her opinion that the activities were boring. sometimes i'll speak up and say the thing no one else dares say, and half the room will be like OH MY GOD ME TOO. and in that case it's worth it to have said something - it's ultimately good for everyone, despite temporary discomfort.

Yes, I always consider this (though in my case, everyone else seemed involved in the activities).

 

[Thalassa]

DEAR GOD i tend to write a lot. condensed points:

1. your friend probably didn't mean to be so negative toward you or others - it was a personal feeling. maybe she didn't like the activity because it made her feel restricted, or put her on the spot, etc. she also probably didn't want to be left out, hence complaining instead of leaving.

2.


it's a bit... well, it's like "you're going to have fun doing my activity, and if you don't, you can go away, and i will organize something else for you to do far away from me." that really doesn't sound fun to me. i think it might be a P and J thing, to some extent. as a P, i feel like fun kind of just happens. Js maybe are more interested in creating fun, which to me can feel restricting. i suspect that part of the issue is probably that she wanted to have a good time and to socialize, but your activity seemed like a barrier to fun, maybe both to herself and others.

and it just kind of seems like a lose-lose situation for her: either she has to be bored or ostracized. and yes, maybe that's her personal problem, but if she's feeling it, maybe others are too.

3. maybe she even felt like she was doing others a favor by speaking up and pointing out her opinion that the activities were boring. sometimes i'll speak up and say the thing no one else dares say, and half the room will be like OH MY GOD ME TOO. and in that case it's worth it to have said something - it's ultimately good for everyone, despite temporary discomfort.

4. i've accidentally offended others via implication too. i doubt she meant to imply you were boring. you are not your game, after all.

so i totally agree with you that Fi users need to work on better understanding the interpersonal implications of stating personal truths. no question that Fi is totally self-absorbed sometimes, and blinded by it. what i think that Fe users could try, instead of just not getting butthurt (which is hard, lol), is just to try to understand why the Fi user might have said something seemingly incongruous and harsh. like i've described, your friend was probably uncomfortable herself, plus had a sense of social consciousness where she was concerned that because she wasn't enjoying herself, others weren't either. i think that EW's idea of a private talk is good - a pointed question might be even more effective than a reprimand (sort of like a koan, thwapping the Fi user into realizing what an ass they were being). not taking Fi "truthiness" personally is something that would help, too - if she wanted to say you were boring, she'd have said you were boring, not the games.

Seriously, I want you to know that if I was at someone else's house, at a party someone else was throwing, and some person kept saying "god this is boring" (openly, loudly, not to themselves or in a private whisper) or something similar during multiple activities, even if I agreed I would think that person was ridiculously rude and immature.

It's one thing to say that to your best friend, significant other, or your mom, or especially in your own house, but to just go around being "truthy" and self-absorbed is childish and counter-productive, unless something TRULY HEINOUS is going on.

I mean, I thought Feelers were trying so hard to defend that Fi and Fe are about "ethical codes" and not about feelings...you're making it sound like Fi is about feelings, not about ethics. I can see being "truthy" and even rude if something violates your ethical code, but being truthy just because you're bored or annoyed is just immature. I'm sorry.

I don't even really believe in Fi and Fe anymore, but that's my review of that particular behavior, and my continuing defense that being a Feeler is about ethics, and not about being an emotional train wreck.

 

[skylights]

^ @ marm - i didn't say the girl wasn't being an asshole. i'm just trying to give reasons she may have acted as she did.

i believe that, in general, all people have a reason to act as they are acting. maybe not a good reason, but a reason. maybe she was just feeling off that day and pissy, or maybe she had a vendetta, or maybe she was feeling down and really wanted attention. maybe she really just didn't like someone at the party and was trying to disrupt everyone. i don't know. i'm not making the value judgment that what she did was okay, or right. it sounds pretty annoying and selfish to me, too. but it's not really helpful to just write her off as a jerk, is it? i'd think it'd be better to try to see things from her perspective and explore why she may be acting that way.

i'm going to be really unfortunately honest here and say that when i get in an emotional funk, i can act really asinine because of those carried-over emotions. i don't think Fi is about emotions, or being a "train wreck", but i think it's an unfortunate side effect of Fi and Ne that emotion can sometimes flow into things it's not necessarily meant to flow into. if i feel like i've been written off earlier in the day, and then someone ignores me in a disrespectful way, it'll be much harder to respond to them neutrally, because the feelings of devaluation have already been floating around in my head.

and i think that's what i'm trying to get at here - it's probably more about the girl's own personal issues than it has anything to do with the group. so it's not really necessarily very useful to deal with her in a group-oriented manner (ie remove her from the group), because that's probably not addressing her problem. my suspicion remains that she had an underlying feeling that was preventing her from not getting into the games, and it's her underlying feeling, not the game itself, that's the problem.

i also don't mean to assert that it's the responsibility of the hostess to take care of someone's personal issues. just that, if the goal is everyone, including this girl, having a good time, that may be impossible to achieve if the girl is having intrapersonal problems that she needs to deal with before she can see the world in a more friendly light.

Um. I think you misunderstand either me or Fe users in general. It is more: "The group is having fun doing this. If you aren't having fun doing this, then go do something else that will be fun for you. I want every individual to be having fun [unless someone insults me]."

it's not that i don't understand that point of view - i do, and generally i think it's a great point of view - but i'm trying to let you know how it can come off in a negative light too.

there's the assumption that this girl can have fun right at this moment. what if there's something that's preventing her from doing so? as in, herself. yes, if she's having this problem, she probably ought to have stayed home, but that's like a social catch-22... it's not like you can easily tell a friend that you're feeling down so you don't want to come to her party. she'll assume you don't want to come to her party because you don't like her.

it's like the counterpart of Fi always being about oneself is that Fe always has to make things about someone else, even when there's really not meant to be any interpersonal implications of behavior.

--

anyway guys, the things i say, they're not meant to be taken as permanent absolutes. i'm sorry if i'm not expressing it well. they're really just opinions and suggestions. because i speak one thing also doesn't mean i haven't considered other options, or don't also believe them as well. i agree that the girl was being unpleasant, but it's not particularly helpful to discuss how unpleasant she was. i figured others wanted to talk about why she might have behaved that way.

 

[Tallulah]

^^ You are a much nicer person than I am. I would have been annoyed at her for bringing her dark raincloud into my party and making it all about her, UNLESS her mother/spouse/dog had died that day, or she'd gotten laid off, or something of that magnitude. If she was just having an emo day, she doesn't need to bring everyone else down with her. Because it's a party, not a wake. I mean, couldn't she at least try to have a good time, and then if she needed to, pull someone aside to talk? And couldn't she own up to her emo-ness, rather than loudly complaining about the activity?

 

[MacGuffin]

I'm going to share a story that happened last semester, but NO ONE QUOTE IT, okay?

Don't bully me you Fe-er!!!

 

[Totenkindly]

i'm going to be really unfortunately honest here and say that when i get in an emotional funk, i can act really asinine because of those carried-over emotions. i don't think Fi is about emotions, or being a "train wreck", but i think it's an unfortunate side effect of Fi and Ne that emotion can sometimes flow into things it's not necessarily meant to flow into. if i feel like i've been written off earlier in the day, and then someone ignores me in a disrespectful way, it'll be much harder to respond to them neutrally, because the feelings of devaluation have already been floating around in my head.

Interesting.

I can identify with the Ne angle in that individual incidents are not isolated to me -- I automatically see how they fit into the larger whole -- and so enough accumulation of those incidents can lead to an aggregate "bad feeling" toward someone. This can make it difficult for me at times to not feel that sort of built-up negativity toward an individual with a pattern of behavior that rubs me the wrong way.

However, I usually don't let it splash out all over the place and just make a mess. It's still controlled by Judgment -- whether it's my T rationality telling me what is fair and unfair in a given situation, or my F sense of propriety telling me what is appropriate for the given situation. If I feel the situation is inappropriate for my feelings to be expressed, I just don't express them. I can even seem fine while I'm actually really upset. You'll find out what I think and feel if the situation changes and now I feel I am in a postion where I can choose to express my feelings.

I had trouble understanding my ESFP son, because he's far more like what you describe. If he's having a "yuck" moment, it's basically crap that is spewed over anyone in the general vicinity. Even if he tries to control it, he has a lot of trouble doing so. It's just there and prevalent. I work hard to accept that it's very difficult, for whatever reason, and try to be supportive, and work on more positive ways for him to process stuff (that fit his style); but I still do feel frustration sometimes over it.

 

[KDude]

I find that interesting too. I compartmentalize more and don't take things out on others in the general vicinity (and I do have emotions btw.. I have typed as an F before, after all ). I think I've even been strangely courteous and aware of pleasantries, even when I'm fixated in my anger on a particular person. There was one guy I was going to get confrontational with, for example, but before I did so, I grabbed his beer and put it on the counter (it was at a friend's apartment.. I didn't want to make a mess).. then I slowly nudged him into a corner away from others. I have periods of general angst, but I think if it comes out on others, it's usually some unhealthy Ni thing. I might vent some issues to a friend, but then shoot down their ideas.. I'll get really cynical and detailed on multiple angles of a suggestion, play out scenarios, and how it sucks. It's not pleasant, but I'm not really saying anything in a way that sounds highly irritated with them in particular.

BTW Jennifer, it's interesting that you post in this thread often. If I am a Ti dom, I'm still kind of interested in what Fe is supposed to be for people of those types. Sometimes I get the impression it's supposed to be nonexistent, but that doesn't sound right.

 

[Random Ness]

Seriously, I want you to know that if I was at someone else's house, at a party someone else was throwing, and some person kept saying "god this is boring" (openly, loudly, not to themselves or in a private whisper) or something similar during multiple activities, even if I agreed I would think that person was ridiculously rude and immature.

It's one thing to say that to your best friend, significant other, or your mom, or especially in your own house, but to just go around being "truthy" and self-absorbed is childish and counter-productive, unless something TRULY HEINOUS is going on.

I mean, I thought Feelers were trying so hard to defend that Fi and Fe are about "ethical codes" and not about feelings...you're making it sound like Fi is about feelings, not about ethics. I can see being "truthy" and even rude if something violates your ethical code, but being truthy just because you're bored or annoyed is just immature. I'm sorry.

I don't even really believe in Fi and Fe anymore, but that's my review of that particular behavior, and my continuing defense that being a Feeler is about ethics, and not about being an emotional train wreck.

Holy shit. Someone needs a hug.

 

[Random Ness]

i believe that, in general, all people have a reason to act as they are acting.

*nods* If it's causing trouble, it's your job to understand why they are acting like they are instead of assuming they're ridiculous, and their job to recognize if their behavior is out of line instead of assuming they're acceptable.

 

[Random Ness]

Holy fishsticks. I never expected my anecdote to get so many posts.

 

[Oberon]

If we're going to have Fe and Fi, we ought to also have Fo and Fum.

It just stands to reason.

 

[Fidelia]

Didn't you see that thread?

 

[Oberon]

No.

(I'll spare you the whole "why would I have posted that if I'd seen the thread?" thing...)

 

[FemMecha]

Seriously, I want you to know that if I was at someone else's house, at a party someone else was throwing, and some person kept saying "god this is boring" (openly, loudly, not to themselves or in a private whisper) or something similar during multiple activities, even if I agreed I would think that person was ridiculously rude and immature.

It's one thing to say that to your best friend, significant other, or your mom, or especially in your own house, but to just go around being "truthy" and self-absorbed is childish and counter-productive, unless something TRULY HEINOUS is going on...

I didn't read the whole discussion, but I have noticed people equating being "truthy" as you call it here with being honest or objective and that has always confused me especially if they are being truthy about something based on their perception. Saying it's "boring", "ugly", "stupid", might have some type of value that multiple people would agree with, but more often I've found bluntness to be subjective opinion that isn't nearly as truthy in the external world as it is inside the person. I've always admired the people who can say, "I feel this way about something, but it is because I've been influenced by x and y, and I know it is not necessarily a universal truth". Confusing perception and reality is about the least truthy thing a person can do.

 

[Tiltyred]

Plus, it can be apparent when Fe-ers are "going through the motions" believing their actions a sufficient concealment of their true feelings or intent. I have observed Fe-ers in conversation, displaying the finest, most congenial smiles, head nods and eye contact, coming across like the following to me: "I will look like I am interested in what 'Joe' has to say because that's what I am supposed to do here, BUT I THINK HE'S AN IDIOT AND JUST WISH HE WOULD SHUT UP." As an FYI, the caps is what an Fi-er is likely hearing you "say" too, and this data has meaning to us. Thus, Fe actions can appear contrived well beyond the necessity of social convention. Fi, at times like this, feels like a kind of sincerity filter. Believe me, 'Joe' may very well be a tool, and I probably wish 'Joe' would shut up too, and I could easily see myself getting trapped in a conversation with him, but just looking like you care about what someone has to say is not enough to convince the whole audience. Sometimes I don't think Fe-ers "get" that fact. It's the root I suppose of why some people can accuse Fe of being "fake", even though in Fe hearts I know, there often reside wonderful, pure feelings and motives.



Yes, and this is how Fe is thus deceived; I can play the role and do good works or what's socially expected of me, even if my heart is contrary. Fe doesn't seem to know or care otherwise sometimes, assuming more often that because I am being good my actions are coming from a good place in my heart.

Let's hope the Ni can pick up what's really true instead, to not be so deceived.



It's a good question. I think we get so close to understanding the Fi - Fe divide, but bridging the gap seems elusive.

I don't understand this criticism of Fe. If I'm nodding and smiling at Joe, doing the best I can while fervently wishing myself or him elsewhere, what am I doing wrong? This starts off with the best of intentions, i.e., my trying to be sincerely interested in what Joe has to say to me. It wears down to trying my best not to make Joe feel bad by snubbing him. Its last vestige of genuine good will ends at a golden rule effort not to embarrass someone else in public by walking away from him or being to obvious about wanting to get away/making it too obvious I'm not enjoying the conversation. If Joe's really got me pinned to the wall and won't let up, and my smile gets more and more forced, and someone across the room sees that it's forced ... why does that make me bad? or fake? What else would you want done? I mean, besides making Joe a more entertaining conversationalist.

I may very well think I'm a prig and I don't have a loving enough heart and be upset with myself that I can't bring myself around to enjoying Joe's company, but whatever wickedness or lack of wholesome good I may feel about myself, I can at least be polite to Joe.

I don't think Fe is that oblivious that they think because people do the right things, their feelings are in perfect alignment. But it's even the more noble to do the right thing if it kills you, isn't it?