[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Totenkindly]

Two things - just because the same behaviours are manifested in an Fi-dom as in an Fe-aux, does not mean that we cannot understand the difference between Fi or Fe through that.

But there's no way to isolate what is what at that point, is there? We are learning SOMETHING, and I still find it personally useful from that angle... but not in terms of cogitating a specific, defined theory about Fe/Fi interactions. It's all just broad-brush smears on a piece of paper and we're picking and choosing based on prior conception of the MBTI.

Secondly, although I know you're speaking of your own mother, but, as you said she's exactly the same way as mine, and then spoke negatively of your own mom, made me feel that you were speaking negatively of my mom as well. Although I see it as something that my mother needs to work on, I don't see her as pathetic for it.

Since I don't know your mother and was specifically talking about *my* mother (and only as a way of noting how "function-definitive" behavior is being attributed in this thread to both Fi and Fe, which is contradictory), there's no way I could make any sort of evaluation, attack, or defense of your mother.

Some random guesses for why you see your mother's actions as pathetic may be because her "avoidance" probably exacerbated a lot of negative situations in your household, while growing up, and when you may have needed a parental figure to step up, and/or stand up on your behalf, you felt let down.

I didn't comment on your mother personally, but now you are commenting on mine?

I would have liked to discuss it as a cognitive process, rather than behaviours, but we inevitably fall into behavioural analysis.

Sure. I guess we could just do yet another theoretical analysis of how personality types "should act." I personally find continued theoretical discussion of cog functions to work from the assumption that MBTI is actually 100% true and thus it grows more and more divorced from real-life data.

EDIT: Sorry, EW -- I had this post written awhile ago but finally hit "Post" and then saw your new one that showed up in the meanwhile. Didn't mean to distract from your comments here.

 

[PeaceBaby]

I think sharing our own stories in a kind and supportive environment can be a very powerful learning tool. And, given the popularity of this thread, it looks like a lot of people want to understand Fe and Fi, and the conflict that sometimes comes between them, better.

How would you suggest readers of the stories respond to them?

(As you know) I posted two stories from my Fi vantage point, yet some discussion that arose focussed on things like "That's probably wasn't Fe" to "You didn't approach that in the most advantageous way". Well, maybe that is true, maybe not.

The result was that I felt that my contributions were consequently 1.) not helpful to illustrate much and 2.) unheard, as the focus turned to other thoughts or details and 3.) somewhat invalidated, since the stories themselves didn't seem to promote reflection or garner the recognition of Fe/Fi gone awry that I had hoped.

EDIT: that being said, thank you to the folks who did respond. I know who you are.

As mentioned earlier in thread, if Fe enjoys the vantage point of feeling "right" as Te does, what contributions from an Fi standpoint would seem right?

One helpful thing is other Fi'ers say the same kinds of things, which helps Fe-ers recognize the patterns amongst Fi-ers.

What do you think? What do you want the readers of the stories to do?

 

[Seymour]

As mentioned earlier in thread, if Fe enjoys the vantage point of feeling "right" as Te does, what contributions from an Fi standpoint would seem right?

One helpful thing is other Fi'ers say the same kinds of things, which helps Fe-ers recognize the patterns amongst Fi-ers.

What do you think? What do you want the readers of the stories to do?

I have similar feelings, in that most of the stories I can think of, I was in the wrong in an Fe sense. Now, I may have been unaware of the expectation I was failing to meet or how the other person would perceive it, but it's hard for me to put those incidents out there since I really don't feel justified in my actions. In that sense, I feel like the issue for me was "lack of Fe awareness" rather than "Fi gone awry."

I find it easier to talk about failures of understanding, rather than saying Fe or Fi went awry. Miscommunications happen, even when those functions are operating correctly and are being self-consistent. Talking about one or the other going awry seems like a value judgment of the function. The problem isn't necessarily in either Fe or Fi, but in the disconnect between those perspectives.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Esoteric: here's an idea. Since the questions you posed have been difficult for many of us to answer- for reasons that I still don't fully understand, but strongly suspect it's type related- how about modifying the questions.

Maybe Fe'ers will find this easier to tackle?

1. When your Feeling judgment Went Awry: Explain situation you personally experienced when your Feeling judgment caused problems. It can be your F function, or someone else’s.

2. Why Did you Do That?: What was your justification for doing what it did?

3. How Were Others Inconvenienced?

I'm not even sure reducing it to "Feeling judgment" is enough, because it's still asking for something kind of vague. I can't think of anything more specific, though. Not right now anyway. Maybe someone else can come up with better suggestions (for the questions).

 

[skylights]

If I seem passive, it's because I don't care, and 90% of the time I don't care about what other people seem to find important. [...] When empathizing, a person can be a "cause", and then I might show some glimmer of real feeling.

oh, yes. i understand this. i don't care about a lot of things others find important either. i mean, i may have weak preferences, or personal preferences, but i don't really mind what others do. most of it seems fine to me. i think it makes us rather laid back and/or happy-go-lucky - INFPs even more so than ENFPs - but also possibly disconcerting to others when all of a sudden we kick into gear for something that Matters.

Just thought this was interesting.. Can we ever to get the bottom of anything? I mean, I identify with some of the things written in this link about Fe, but then I hear here that Fi is more open. Then I hear Fe is. Then I hear Fe isn't. Then I hear Fi types don't want to express anything and that they're values are enigmatic. Then I hear Fe shuts people out. Then... Meh. It's too much for to get a good picture of.

lol that smiley always cracks me up.

i think perhaps you might be running into the issue of looking at qualities people are talking about and trying to find yourselves in those, but in truth a lot of us seem to be spewing mismash that has not necessarily got much to do with Fe or Fi. and perhaps the mismash is the best we can do in whatever state of figuring things out we're in, but like OrangeAppled pointed out to me, some things i was attributing to Fi did involve Fi but were very fueled by Ne. and some things just seem to be personal attributes. so while i see them as important to the figuring-out process, it might help you to not use them as a basis for comparison.

incidentally, sometimes i think vicky jo is rather bright, and other times i think she is a load of hot air. the INFPs i know tend to self-disclose to me more than the INFJs i know. i think this might be because we are naturally rather comfortable with one another. unfortunately vicky jo, who seems like someone i would be rather uncomfortable around, seems to forget to remove herself as a variable sometimes. she mentions that her husband gets mad at her talking about him... i think FJs are simply more likely to talk about people, period. themselves or others.

though - she's right about NFPs magically getting info out of someone else. people just tell me things (usually very personal things that are completely useless to me, unfortunately, i would prefer credit card numbers) and i'm like... uh... okay

I also think this thread needs ENFJs

In that sense, I feel like the issue for me was "lack of Fe awareness" rather than "Fi gone awry."

I find it easier to talk about failures of understanding, rather than saying Fe or Fi went awry. Miscommunications happen, even when those functions are operating correctly and are being self-consistent. Talking about one or the other going awry seems like a value judgment of the function. The problem isn't necessarily in either Fe or Fi, but in the disconnect between those perspectives.

this. plus i don't think it's Fi gone awry as much as me messing up with my abilities, for whatever reason. like Fi is a hammer and i'm using the wrong end. (okay that's more like Te, but whatever) though EW, that's interesting about the background for the setup. to be quite honest i would have been much more inclined to use it if i had been aware of that... not that i don't respect you or your ideas, but it seemed a bit pulled out of thin air at first.

i am not going to post this, because it is a bit too information-laden for me to share on the internets - but i'm trying the form right now with a major messup of my own. perhaps i'll post the final stage of reflection.

and Z Buck, i like your rewording. that's easier for me, too. i think the emphasis on how my judgment went awry is important because it's not that we didn't necessarily use Fi or Fe well; it's that can also make the mistake of concentrating on certain things so much that we blind ourselves to other types of judging, and resultingly end up hurting others who judge in a different way.

 

[cascadeco]

To Esoteric -

The reason I can't provide any input in the requested format/exercise is because for the life of me I can't think of any situation/conflict irl that was due to Fe/Fi alone. Maybe I'm totally un-self-aware, or something, but these things are so individualized, not to mention that I think most conflicts are a combo of functions and I, at least, don't feel terribly comfortable, or able to, break down into just Fe vs. Fi, because I tend not to see it as solely resting on that... (and also, admittedly, these days don't put a whole lot of focus on mbti exclusively in looking at personality/behavior). I would say that in most of my misunderstandings with another, it wasn't at all due to my Fe or their Fi -- it was due to some other element of my personality.

Also, perhaps it's because irl I don't really experience gaping Fe/Fi differences, at least *behaviorally*. However, I also don't have any dom or aux Fi's that are in my close circle of friends (well, there's one that might be infp but I really have no idea what his type is), so there is that as well - I simply don't have any firsthand experience in any major Fe/Fi conflict, or else I'm just not phased all that much by some of the Fi stuff that's talked about in here. I dunno. I mean, yes, I recognize I operate pretty differently from Fi-er's, but it's never caused major real-life conflict for me; That I'm aware of, at least. Edit: If anything, Fe is the precise thing that prevents conflict for me in the first place - it's the tool I use to communicate such that conflict/misunderstanding typically doesn't occur.

*End totally unhelpful response*

 

[Salomé]

The same reason I don't hand out copies of my birth certificate, my bank info/PIN, SSN, home address, times I plan on being away from home, and where I hide a spare house key.

I want to see how they act in various situations, whether they are trustworthy, how they treat others and what they do with information before I'm going to choose to connect with them in that way.

So it's fear then, basically? Fear to break with tradition? ("this is the proper and therefore safe way to go about establishing a friendship") Fear that you are giving them some kind of power over you?

Could it be that while Fi treasures and builds impromptu intimacy, Fe fears it? (Fi will be a shadow function for Fe users, after all);
and that while Fe treasures the safety and reassurance of structure and solidity in relationship, Fi fears that? (for the same reason - such fear being experienced as a kind of contempt or fear of entrapment)

Of course most Fi users commenting here are Ps and most Fe users, Js...
How much is right-brain (all-at-once) vs left-brain (one step at a time) thinking...?

This is one issue I have with Fi-users. For me, there's a selfish tinge to this, although it may appear, emphathetic.

"Be emotionally okay because that will make my emotional state okay."

One can find a selfish motive for everything we do, if one looks for it. Even wanting to console someone can be interpreted in that way. All goals are goals of the self, even self-sacrificing ones. Equally, one can say it's selfish to allow one's emotions to overpower someone else, rather than keeping them in check. After all, only infants give free reign to every discomfort they feel, without considering other people. We tolerate it in infants, because they are still discovering their ego boundaries. By the time one has reached adulthood, one should ideally be able to navigate through the world and accommodate ourselves to it without demanding that it always accommodate us - that's relevant whether we prefer Fe or Fi. I don't think accusations of selfishness are helpful. Selfishness is a given.

It's a nice sentiment, but, it undermines the depth and complexity of my feeling when it seems like the worry is no longer about me working through those emotions for myself, but, working through my emotions for US BOTH. Especially when I'm feeling such raw emotions, the last thing I need is another worry added on top of that, which is managing how the Fi-user feels as well.

I want to be able to have my emotions just be about ME [and NO ONE ELSE], without the other option being to keep the emotions to myself to achieve said state. It's restrictive to self-expression.

I don't think I suggested that people shouldn't express themselves. Merely that some people don't understand the effect it will have on a Fi user. You seem to understand it but are complaining about it. It's not a choice to respond in that way. If it were, don't you think they'd switch it off to spare themselves? The only option is to withdraw if someone is proving to be too emotionally draining. From personal experience, a Fe user is more likely to throw it back in my face if I cause them anxiety ( "how could you do this to ME/US?"); a Fi user is more likely to internalise and quietly get sick ("why are you doing this to yourself? I can't stand it, how can I help?"). Maturity levels are going to have a strong bearing.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

How would you suggest readers of the stories respond to them?

Hmmm... This is a very good question PeaceBaby that I hadn't anticipated. And, I've been sitting here for 15 minutes trying to formulate a response.

Let me be upfront that I was completely taken off guard by this suggestion. I observed that some... though not all... of the dialogue surrounding PeaceBaby's posts centered around categorizing and analyzing her stories to see if they were consistent with the poster's idea of XYZ. In other words, some people seemed to immediately hone in on what they saw as inconsistencies in PeaceBaby's stories. By this I mean, whether or or not her interpretation of what happened and her attribution of behaviors as Fe or Fi were correct...... And, now that I write these words, I just realized that I just described the very essence of Ti.



So perhaps what PeaceBaby is saying is that by responding to her posts in a Ti-heavy manner, this made her feel invalidated. And, that the receivers of her story missed her point, by side tracking the conversation to a discussion of the overall logical cogency of her story, and not focusing on her story's stated purpose which was to give an example of Fe/Fi gone awry.

(As you know) I posted two stories from my Fi vantage point, yet some discussion that arose focused on things like "That's probably wasn't Fe" to "You didn't approach that in the most advantageous way". Well, maybe that is true, maybe not.

The result was that I felt that my contributions were consequently 1.) not helpful to illustrate much and 2.) unheard, as the focus turned to other thoughts or details and 3.) somewhat invalidated, since the stories themselves didn't seem to promote reflection or garner the recognition of Fe/Fi gone awry that I had hoped.

This poses an interesting problem because I would never want to invalidate a Ti-user's right to use Ti. I guess I would say that perhaps Ti isn't the most helpful mental function in this particular exercise. After all, functions are not right or wrong, per se. Instead they are more or less appropriate based on the needs of the situation. So at least to me the challenge (in terms of self-actualization) is not using the function you're most comfortable with but the function that works best for the matter at hand.

So, I guess I'd say to Ti-users that while I can acknowledge your use of Ti as a valid choice for you, I'd also suggest that you be aware that in this exercise, which is about taking ownership of your own mental function's excesses, it may not be the best mental function to use here.

The task at hand, as it has been defined, is not about finding logical inconsistencies in the stories people post. Again, there's nothing wrong with this, but it's sort of missing the point of this thread.

That's about as far as I got before my head started to hurt from thinking about all this stuff. Anyone want to chime in on this?

 

[PeaceBaby]

I don't think I suggested that people shouldn't express themselves. Merely that some people don't understand the effect it will have on a Fi user. You seem to understand it but are complaining about it. It's not a choice to respond in that way. If it were, don't you think they'd switch it off to spare themselves?

Like Data, to have an emotion chip we can switch on or off at will ...

Hrm, Star Trek reference aside, extraverted function use IRL tends to energize a person, introverted function use to drain. It's therefore completely logical the exhausting effect of extraverting Fi has on an Fi-er, no? We feel both our own value-driven emotional reactions, plus pick up the emanation of other emotive states, which can blend with our own and produce some fuzzy edges.

so @bold: I agree completely.

(I feel energized using Ne IRL, exploring endless connections and possibilities.)

I can choose to override my Fi-tendencies enough to function very well in groups. But I'll be just bagged afterward from taking care of all the people needs, my brain will feel like mushy pudding. I wish it wasn't so, but, so it is.

It's the reason why even here in thread, after sharing a big story or post, I feel like I gotta get out of here for a while.

Maturity levels are going to have a strong bearing.

Agreed.

 

[Totenkindly]

@EW: Could you explain a little more about what you trying to accomplish that isn't going to be impacted if Fi/Fe is improperly being assumed within a particular anecdote? That's admittedly where you are losing me.

(To me, it's very much like saying, "Let us compare the color 'baby blue' to 'cerulean blue' so that we can better understand them" -- when it's clear that people don't even agree on which of the two colors is which to start with, let alone the distinct possibility that one or more of the colors being compared might be red or yellow or black and not actually blue at all.)

...Maybe I am just misunderstanding the point of the thread.

 

[Tallulah]

I personally don't see why everyone's thinking the thread is devolving or getting off track. To me, even when we share our frustrations--especially when we share our frustrations--we get the other person's PERCEPTION of when Fe/Fi has gone awry. Not in the way the OP intended, but we get them the way they look to the actual recipient in the real world.

Speaking for myself, even if I'm not affirming in every single post, and it looks like I'm just sharing my frustrations, I'm still very much listening to the other side and trying to determine where I could have handled a situation better with an Fi user. And sure, other factors and functions figure in, but in terms of usefulness, I'm not sure it's that important. I'm still getting new perspectives and new ideas to mull over and try in the future once I've processed them.

I don't see the conflict in this thread as a bad thing. It hasn't once turned into "YOUR MOM!" or anything, and I think it's okay to take a break if it gets overwhelming. I don't think it's necessary to take it by its reins and get it back to the original format, because it has turned into a more organic conversation. I think it's obvious we're seeing examples of the awryness; we just have to decide what to do, individually, with the data.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Sorry to make your head hurt too EW.

The task at hand, as it has been defined, is not about finding logical inconsistencies in the stories people post. Again, there's nothing wrong with this, but it's sort of missing the point of this thread.

The first example I chose to share was very simplistic, in order to try to discourage the "picking apart". I wanted it to be so obvious as to "Fi gone awry" ... my Fi reaction to an unquestionably unjust situation, so that no one would get bogged down in the details. (For those who may remember, I grew up with an INTP brother, so I know all about how the minutiae must form a logical path in order for him to believe what I am saying.)

Of course for me, Ti is 8th in my function order, but as a programmer, I probably have a relatively decent use of it or I don't know if I could do my job. But I know I don't tell stories in a Ti friendly way.

It's why I literally took HOURS ... yes, HOURS to write the second one, the church story. The point wasn't the details, but I knew if the details didn't logically lead to the conclusion I drew, I would invite endless queries into whether or not I was reading the situation accurately. Trust me Fe users, the church story took 2 years to unfold, and I had endless time to examine and reexamine both myself and the players enough to feel 99% confidence in relaying it as an example.

Ah, and that leads to the whole issue of trust too for Fe users in particular ... some people will feel more ready to trust me than others, just based on our current levels of familiarity.

So, it is frustrating to have to justify oneself, instead of just inviting reflection on the message from the story.

I wish I had an answer, I will have to think about it myself.

 

[skylights]

* edited. was lots of me blathering deep dark things and not much really for other people to bounce off of. i guess i thought it'd be helpful but in truth maybe you had to be there

I don't see the conflict in this thread as a bad thing. It hasn't once turned into "YOUR MOM!" or anything, and I think it's okay to take a break if it gets overwhelming. I don't think it's necessary to take it by its reins and get it back to the original format, because it has turned into a more organic conversation. I think it's obvious we're seeing examples of the awryness; we just have to decide what to do, individually, with the data.

this is exactly how i feel too - though i did return to the format because i understand its significance now. and for the lulz.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

after sharing a big story or post, I feel like I gotta get out of here for a while.

Holy macaroni, Batman. That is EXACTLY how I feel after I make a big post. Never consciously articulated this before, but think you explained exactly why it feels this way to me.

(And, I'm working on this, btw.)

But this time it's not my Fi, it's my job. Be back in 45 minutes.

 

[OrangeAppled]

I also think this thread needs ENFJs.

I mean, the I and E thing definitely takes part in this. I think ENFPs are way more open with their Fi than INFPs are and that INFPs are way more selective, despite it being somewhat the same process (that INFPs seem to have worked out even more than us). I think the same will be true for ENFJs and INFJs. I personally find it easier to connect with ENFJs as they're more open to connections, even if they use a different system.

Yes....in your exchange with Qre:us, I found myself relating much more to Qre:us' viewpoint. IDK if it's because I am an introvert and because I am Fi-dm and not aux, but as I mentioned in more detail before, I can ignore other people's emotional states pretty easily. The only time I feel drawn into that healer mode is if they reach out to me in some way. Forcing someone to talk about an issue or to push help on them, well reminds me of Fe! It seems the same negative traits are applied to both functions, depending on which one the accuser possesses. It makes me wonder just how people are typing others - do you decide if someone is Fe or Fi based on how well you communicate, for instance?

On an individual level, I can communicate just as well with many Fe-ers I know as with the Fi-ers I know; and with a few, even better, because we happen to have a closer relationship. In some ways, I can relate more to my ENFJ friends than ENFPs as they are F-dom like me, even if our functions are oriented in opposite ways. I find it complementary. Where I find problems with Fe is on a group level - it's almost a feeling of being ganged up on. It doesn't have to be individual people & often is not - it's just the Fe collective attitude pervading the social air. But then, I do better with one-on-one interactions, period.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

This poses an interesting problem because I would never want to invalidate a Ti-user's right to use Ti. I guess I would say that perhaps Ti isn't the most helpful mental function in this particular exercise. After all, functions are not right or wrong, per se. Instead they are more or less appropriate based on the needs of the situation. So at least to me the challenge (in terms of self-actualization) is not using the function you're most comfortable with but the function that works best for the matter at hand.

So, I guess I'd say to Ti-users that while I can acknowledge your use of Ti as a valid choice for you, I'd also suggest that you be aware that in this exercise, which is about taking ownership of your own mental function's excesses, it may not be the best mental function to use here.

The task at hand, as it has been defined, is not about finding logical inconsistencies in the stories people post. Again, there's nothing wrong with this, but it's sort of missing the point of this thread.

That's about as far as I got before my head started to hurt from thinking about all this stuff. Anyone want to chime in on this?

@ the green: Is the mental function you are most comfortable with determining the 'most helpful mental function for this particular exercise'?

And @ the red: are you suggesting the key to our self-actualization lies in using your functions? What are the determining factors in deciding the the best mental functions to use here?

 

[Tiltyred]

Where I find problems with Fe is on a group level - it's almost a feeling of being ganged up on. It doesn't have to be individual people & often is not - it's just the Fe collective attitude pervading the social air. But then, I do better with one-on-one interactions, period.

It's like you're afraid of people.

No, wait, that's us INFJs.

 

[Ivy]

IMO, the thread as it has progressed has been far more useful to me than a litany of tightly formatted personal anecdotes about fe/fi gone awry. I'm just not sure (as someone- cascadeco? said before) that when things go awry it's ever the fault of one cognitive function in isolation. To me, that seems like a misappropriation of the concept of cognitive functions.

 

[Amargith]

Yes....in your exchange with Qre:us, I found myself relating much more to Qre:us' viewpoint. IDK if it's because I am an introvert and because I am Fi-dm and not aux, but as I mentioned in more detail before, I can ignore other people's emotional states pretty easily. The only time I feel drawn into that healer mode is if they reach out to me in some way. Forcing someone to talk about an issue or to push help on them, well reminds me of Fe! It seems the same negative traits are applied to both functions, depending on which one the accuser possesses. It makes me wonder just how people are typing others - do you decide if someone is Fe or Fi based on how well you communicate, for instance?

On an individual level, I can communicate just as well with many Fe-ers I know as with the Fi-ers I know; and with a few, even better, because we happen to have a closer relationship. In some ways, I can relate more to my ENFJ friends than ENFPs as they are F-dom like me, even if our functions are oriented in opposite ways. I find it complementary. Where I find problems with Fe is on a group level - it's almost a feeling of being ganged up on. It doesn't have to be individual people & often is not - it's just the Fe collective attitude pervading the social air. But then, I do better with one-on-one interactions, period.

Can't say I appreciate the bolded. Nor was that what I meant. I never do force people to talk or to accept help. In fact, I don't, unless it comes up, then I'll offer, or if people ask for it themselves. Just don't shoot me for asking how you're doing if you're off and being interested in you. And yes, when asked what people can do to accomodate more, I'll be honest..I'd like to know what's going on, so I can accomodate and adapt, instead of being stuck with a feeling that's not mine and with no incling as to what it refers to. But that doesn't mean I demand it.

 

[OrangeAppled]

It's like you're afraid of people.

No, wait, that's us INFJs.

In all seriousness, I kind of am, but that has a lot less to do with Fi than a mild social anxiety. Although, sometimes I feel it formed partially to learning as a child that I am out of sync with those around me and might receive a negative reaction from them because of it. The whole Fi-Si loop perpetuates this feeling, but most of the time, when I don't fall into that mode and utilize my Ne properly, then I'm less wary of people.

Can't say I appreciate the bolded. Nor was that what I meant. I never do force people to talk or to accept help. In fact, I don't, unless it comes up, then I'll offer, or if people ask for it themselves. Just don't shoot me for asking how you're doing if you're off and being interested in you. And yes, when asked what people can do to accomodate more, I'll be honest..I'd like to know what's going on, so I can accomodate and adapt, instead of being stuck with a feeling that's not mine and with no incling as to what it refers to. But that doesn't mean I demand it.

I wasn't suggesting you did that - I was referring to Qre:us' implication that Fi does that.