[NF] When Fe & Fi Go Awry: The Definitive NF guide to F-ness (Let the Antics Ensue)

[Thalassa]

Sigh.. It just sounds like some people have limits that are extreme. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. It's one thing to not be totally open like an ESFP, but to promote this shelled up behavior is literally painful to hear about. It does no good for anyone but yourselves. I see nothing ideal about it. I see nothing that you're improving about the world by snubbing people. I mentioned in another thread that even Jesus himself had some pretty bad disciples (until they learned).. He kept an open mind. He had Fe. Even Martin Luther King could detect the good in others, and even invited some Chicago gang members to work with him.. the list goes on with open minded INFJs, who reached out, who mobilized people, and inspired them. Not this.

I've seen this referred to as "Ni dom paranoia" ...and apparently INTJs can have it too...Ni/Fi is a paranoid loop, and I suppose Ni/Ti is excessively cautious...in fact, it hilariously almost seems to mimic Si...which is probably where some people jump to the conclusion that certain INFJs are really ISFJs.

Okay, maybe it's not that hilarious.

EDIT: That was not a personal attack on you, Fidelia. I didn't even notice who in particular he was speaking to until I responded to the post - but yes - the generalized behavior of being excessively cautious or closed off to others is what I was addressing.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

It takes longer for me to process these posts than it does for forum members to make 100 more.

I know! I'm presently trying to decide whether or not I should scrap the response I started to Peacebaby about, oh, 300 posts ago?

 

[Qre:us]

well, it's not a nice sentiment, really... i was just trying to be straightforward. at the same time, i can't see how Fe users can claim that Fi users should be more responsible for their external behavior, when you're voicing that you don't want to be responsible for what you're putting into the atmosphere either.

That's not what I was saying/meaning. What I meant was that just because I put something out there to a person, doesn't mean they should automatically assume that I'm wanting or expecting them to be responsible for navigating its state of being. I.e., making it their own cross to bear, too, in some ways.

i understand that you may not pay attention to emotional cues from others,

Not true. I'm very perceptive about emotional cues from others, and I think it's because of a combination of NeTiFe. Not Fi.

It was one of my greatest assests when working with individuals with autism, esp. those who had severe barriers to language. Communicating beyond a mutual understanding of spoken language.

I just don't get upset by another's emotional distress, i.e., internalize it or mirror it [unless some living thing is suffering from pain that resonates with me and/or their effort/will to survive becomes all for naught.]

I have let a few tears drop when there was this one tiny plant that was overshadowed by all the bigger shrubbery around it, and over days, it had almost bent itself to be nearly touching the ground, to bend towards sufficient sunlight. Only to see a few days later, the kids playing around there, and one carelessly pulling that plant from its roots, in one great pull, only to then grow bored of finishing that task, and thus, fling that plant away. The fact that its natural instinct was to survive, and for it to be so carelessly ended - . Just to give you an example of how obscure I can go with such things.

well, and we don't actually mind being vented at either. i really don't need anyone to manage my feelings for me... i can handle really strong feelings no problem. it's not the feeling itself that gets me... it is not the emotion, it's the discrepancy. i can handle someone yelling, crying, throwing things. no problem. but when they're talking curtly to me and giving me cold looks and yet saying "there's no emotion going on here," that is just as unfair as me intending well but accidentally hurting you through my actions.

Ah! The bolded, that makes it clearer.

i understand that feeling, and i actually hesitate in the same way with my own mom, and she's ESFJ. she'll feel so bad about things i tell her sometimes, because she knows i was hurting. i don't think it's likely for an F in general to hear about pain and then not respond with their own pain on some level.

True, I can see it as an F-thing, rather than a particular Fi-thing.

but how can you say "i want my emotions to only be about me" but then also say "i want to communicate my emotions (but still keep them only about me)"? communication is sharing. two people. you can't keep it all about you if you're sharing... it sounds like all you're really asking is for the other person not to respond to them in an emotional way.

BINGO!

though i'm not trying to say you shouldn't be able to tell someone that you had a bad experience without them getting bent out of shape. i totally agree with that. what i'm trying to say is that my response to that necessarily involves feeling the bad feelings, because then i can see from that standpoint too. it might sound selfish, but, at the risk of sounding big-headed, i think it's fairly altruistic to offer to wade through pain to try as best as i can to see a situation through someone else's eyes. trust me, i'm not doing that purely for myself.

As an ideal, it sounds nice, but, what I was aiming to get at, as per the intent of this thread - Fe/Fi gone awry - that this way can allow for an emotional vampire to be born. Needing hits of emotions from others, to know you've affected someone emotionally, to be affected by someone emotionally - as some twisted way of getting off on such an emotional charge.

These certain people often SEEK OUT the "misunderstood", the "underdog", or at the worst, push someone to the fringes so that they BECOME misunderstood, and convince others and themselves that they're doing it to "help", to provide some sage guidance - when they're just really wanting to find a victim so they can play the hero/champion/wise saviour. Or simply to walk away with an emotional hit.

And, that's where I'm saying, don't use me and my emotional state to make it about you and your need to get the next "emotional fix". (you, ofc, not meaning you personally)

 

[KDude]

I've seen this referred to as "Ni dom paranoia" ...and apparently INTJs can have it too...Ni/Fi is a paranoid loop, and I suppose Ni/Ti is excessively cautious...in fact, it hilariously almost seems to mimic Si...which is probably where some people jump to the conclusion that certain INFJs are really ISFJs.

Okay, maybe it's not that hilarious.

To be fair, I've had my fair share of it.. the only way out of it is getting a little more Se in one's life..witholding judgement just a tiny bit more. If someone wants to protect themselves, use Fe. It helps disarm and can be creative, not just defensive. Like Gandhi said: Be the good you want to see in the world. Not the other way around. You don't have worry about everyone else all of the time, if you can do this.

Yeah, I think the same paranoia can apply to some ISPs too. It might be that I'm one of them.. I dunno. It's kind of funny that I'm preaching Se now

 

[Thalassa]

To be fair, I've had my fair share of it.. the only way out of it is getting a little more Se in one's life..witholding judgement just a tiny bit more. If someone wants to protect themselves, use Fe. It helps disarm and can be creative, not just defensive.

Yeah, I think the same paranoia can apply to some ISPs too.

Well, yeah, in all fairness we ALL have flaws. Ni dom paranoia is just something INxJs are prone to, just as ENFPs are apparently prone to be reactive or emo.

 

[Fidelia]

Kdude, I think maybe you and I are thinking of different kinds of things. If I'm torn up over the death of a loved one, I probably am not going to sob on a strangers shoulder and tell them about all of my regrets.

Like everyone else though, I've had very nice chance times with other people: going picnicking in Montreal with some guy I met who worked in the record store, busking on the street and meeting interesting people who made for a memorable or fun or funny day. Buying a toiletries for a street kid and then driving all over town together trying to figure out how to get him a social security number so he could work and then going swimming out back of a hippy co-op. I'm not talking about stuff like that.

Just if I invest heavily emotionally, I want to know that the person is going to be there down the road and is just as invested as me. Is that so wrong?

 

[Totenkindly]

I'm starting to think this Fi/Fe convo is a load of bunk. No offense people, but the overlaps in stereotypes are started to get kind of amusing.

Yes, when Qre was describing her Fi mother and how she had to coddle and protect her, I could only think of my only pathetically ISFJ mother who has literally no semblance of Fi and is all Fe... and she's exactly the same way, she cannot handle conflict or negative discussion. The reason we are not close at all is because when I was growing up there was so much she could not handle that I learned to just never say anything negative (or much at all, actually).

A lot of the stuff being bandied about as Fe/Fi in this thread just ain't.

... I do agree, though, with PB regardless that I've learned some things here overall that will prove useful to me.

 

[Qre:us]

Yes, when Qre was describing her Fi mother and how she had to coddle and protect her, I could only think of my only pathetically ISFJ mother who has literally no semblance of Fi and is all Fe... and she's exactly the same way, she cannot handle conflict or negative discussion. The reason we are not close at all is because when I was growing up there was so much she could not handle that I learned to just never say anything negative (or much at all, actually).

Two things - just because the same behaviours are manifested in an Fi-dom as in an Fe-aux, does not mean that we cannot understand the difference between Fi or Fe through that.

For example, I'd guess why the Fi-dom may avoid such conflict would be a different process of thought than why an Fe-dom/aux might. Add to that, how well-adjusted they are as an idividual, ofc.

Secondly, although I know you're speaking of your own mother, but, as you said she's exactly the same way as mine, and then spoke negatively of your own mom, made me feel that you were speaking negatively of my mom as well.

Although I see it as something that my mother needs to work on, I don't see her as pathetic for it.

Some random guesses for why you see your mother's actions as pathetic may be because her "avoidance" probably exacerbated a lot of negative situations in your household, while growing up, and when you may have needed a parental figure to step up, and/or stand up on your behalf, you felt let down.

This is not at all what happened with my mother. She will always rather opt to avoid a negative situation, but, not at the expense of resolving a situation. Ever. Esp. when it comes to the well-being of her child, she will be the first to fiercely start a battle out of "seeming" nothingness. She'd be the conflict-starter then. And, boy, will the fireworks fly.

She has enough sense to see the bigger picture and to know when a problem/issue will boil into a bigger issue if not nipped at the bud, versus, where there's no real influence she has - however, just due to the emotional nature, the situation does (and will inevitably) influence her. E.g., hearing about a girl in our neighbourhood who was brutally murdered, and the most probable reasoning seems to be "honour killing". She will most def. rather not hear about such things.

Her idealistic nature cannot stand by and let "suffering" continue, so, if she cannot do anything about it, yes, she'd rather stay ignorant to it.

Situations where I am upset, and I withhold from my mother, are because I know that she is quite removed from the situation, and does not have any active part in the situation, and cannot really be of help in the resolution, so rather than upset her, I withhold.

A lot of the stuff being bandied about as Fe/Fi in this thread just ain't.

I haven't really followed this thread, read here and there, but I can agree with this.

I think it's always the issue of discussing functions as some isolated thing, and using observations of behaviours to understand it. A behaviour is never, ever, due to an isolated function.

I would have liked to discuss it as a cognitive process, rather than behaviours, but we inevitably fall into behavioural analysis.

 

[skylights]

That's not what I was saying/meaning. What I meant was that just because I put something out there to a person, doesn't mean they should automatically assume that I'm wanting or expecting them to be responsible for navigating its state of being. I.e., making it their own cross to bear, too, in some ways.

Not true. I'm very perceptive about emotional cues from others, and I think it's because of a combination of NeTiFe. Not Fi.

It was one of my greatest assests when working with individuals with autism, esp. those who had severe barriers to language. Communicating beyond a mutual understanding of spoken language.

I just don't get upset by another's emotional distress, i.e., internalize it or mirror it [unless some living thing is suffering from pain that resonates with me and/or their effort/will to survive becomes all for naught.]

ah, i see. i dunno if it was just my interpretation or if it was the wording - or both - but i didn't realize that this was more of a possible situation than a constant one. like, that it wasn't meant to apply to everyone with Fi dom/aux. and i do apologize for implying that you, personally, cannot read emotions. it was more of an impersonal "you", directed at non-Fis in general, but i didn't really make that clear.

it's weird what happens to me with emotional distress. i don't necessarily need to understand what's happening on a cognitive level to mirror it. even in reading a thread, if the words are sounding frustrated, i start to feel a heat and itchiness inside (apparently emotional frustration is like an internal STD), and it becomes hard for me to keep reading. with sadness, i just feel like something is being pulled away from me, and i feel more lethargic. people keep saying that Fi people misread all the time, but i've never had a time in my life when someone has told me that i have mistakenly picked up on Feeling nuances. not that i'm perfect - i just don't think it's always all that common as this thread might lead one to believe.

anyway, beyond emotion - i jump right to why. i don't think i get upset about things as much as move to that emotional place and then in that place i can look at why. i don't have a huge desire to provoke emotions, personally - at least, not bad ones - nor do i have a huge desire to placate them - at least, not the good ones. they're just kinda there, with me. what i'm working on currently is how to get out of negative emotions more quickly than i used to be able to. it's hard, but pleasing.

I have let a few tears drop when there was this one tiny plant that was overshadowed by all the bigger shrubbery around it, and over days, it had almost bent itself to be nearly touching the ground, to bend towards sufficient sunlight. Only to see a few days later, the kids playing around there, and one carelessly pulling that plant from its roots, in one great pull, only to then grow bored of finishing that task, and thus, fling that plant away. The fact that its natural instinct was to survive, and for it to be so carelessly ended - . Just to give you an example of how obscure I can go with such things.

aw :sad: i always get all emo over charlie brown christmas trees. they're little and scrawny already with hardly any branches to protect them from the cold and then all the big fluffy magnificent trees get chosen to go to warm lighted homes and the little scrawny ones are left behind to die in the dark and cold...

wow okay. must. stop. the emo. okay so the little trees might return to the earth, but they are brought back as part of a new tree, and the wind, and the sea, and perhaps the particles that one made up that tree will make it into space and will someday become a star. hey, maybe we all have a little stardust in us.

As an ideal, it sounds nice, but, what I was aiming to get at, as per the intent of this thread - Fe/Fi gone awry - that this way can allow for an emotional vampire to be born. Needing hits of emotions from others, to know you've affected someone emotionally, to be affected by someone emotionally - as some twisted way of getting off on such an emotional charge.

These certain people often SEEK OUT the "misunderstood", the "underdog", or at the worst, push someone to the fringes so that they BECOME misunderstood, and convince others and themselves that they're doing it to "help", to provide some sage guidance - when they're just really wanting to find a victim so they can play the hero/champion/wise saviour. Or simply to walk away with an emotional hit.

And, that's where I'm saying, don't use me and my emotional state to make it about you and your need to get the next "emotional fix". (you, ofc, not meaning you personally)

i agree with you that emotional manipulation shouldn't be used to one's gain and others' detriment. i actually am fairly unfamiliar with the idea of an emotional "fix" myself - and given, i am not e4 - but, like i said, i don't actually even have a great fondness for my emotional states unless they're very positive ones. they just kinda happen, like images in your mind when you read a book. it's weird to think about it like cocaine or something, lol. this sounds a little like borderline/unstable emotional PD too.

hah, and like i mentioned... i'm always pushing for why. i wonder it in this case too. what causes someone to need emotional "fixes"? or to play the hero? insecurity, i would think, in the second case. or, on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, total narcissism. i wonder if they don't make a sort of circle themselves, extreme insecurity turning into extreme narcissism. you think you're worth nothing, it doesn't matter what you do, so you become completely self-absorbed; you think you're better than everyone, you're worth everything, you start freaking out because everything you do means so much.

perhaps the vampirism comes from inability to control your emotional states. Fi is a subjective function, and without any objective help, you might not be able to have any hold over your emotional states. if you couldn't come to peace with them, and kept fighting against them, you might discover you could "adopt" them from outside instead of being subject to them. i could see this happening more to Fi aux or tert, with particularly low usage of their T function, since they don't work as much with Fi as Fi doms do. and i certainly understand wanting to "adopt" positive emotional states or cause positive emotional states in others, but i can't imagine wanting to stay in or, god forbid, create negative emotions, because they drain me to such an extent. not that i don't with the whole Te hammer thing, but that's kind of a last resort. anyway, anyone else have ideas on this?


the only other thing i do want to point out, is that sometimes i think people willing to work with really depressed or anxious people, or people on the fringes of society, are sometimes misunderstood for this kind of behavior. that it's more for themself than anyone else, and i think that's sad. or that this state of vampirism might manifest in their lives without their understanding or desire for it. sad too.

 

[skylights]

To your question - No, I don't think being worried about the other using the information to hurt me is what's on my mind. It really just boils down to the fact that my sharing and 'going vulnerable' means I'm on the road to wanting to invest in the relationship, and I believe the other is too. So if they'd then back away or walk off, I'd be hurt or embarassed (for having misread the situation) because they apparently then didn't view the nature of the relationship in the way I did.

ahh. okay. i see. thanks

This is so, so much like me...the only time I come off as overbearing IRL, I think, is when I am under stress and in my shadow (aka NFP becomes foot-stomping baby STJ). But it's not my preferred, relaxed, or "normal" state. I thought was INFJ for a long long time, and sometimes tested INFP. I still do test as INFx more than any other type.

lol! when i am on a rampage i am STJ central. or last minute studying. i kick last minute studying ASS.

i always test INF too. at first i thought INFP but then when i was first learning about the functions i thought i was INFJ mostly because i am fairly clearly more N than F, and i have a few little latent J thought processes. but, complete lack of Ti. and later i realized i wasn't quite so hot on Ni or Fe either. i'm pretty happy with the ENFP label at this point, though. it's withstood self-questioning better than either INF type.

I mentioned in another thread that even Jesus himself had some pretty bad disciples (until they learned).. He kept an open mind. He had Fe.

agree with you that it's good to keep an open mind and moderate practices, but typing someone who many people believe to be god?

actually i take that back. typing deities sounds fun.

Well, yeah, in all fairness we ALL have flaws. Ni dom paranoia is just something INxJs are prone to, just as ENFPs are apparently prone to be reactive or emo.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN REACTIVE AND EMO!?!? :steam::steam: am not

Much of this sounds like Ne. You're making some random connection to the issue at hand and ascribing value to it based on that unrelated issue. Instead of relating things to something else external, Fi-doms may relate it to their inner ideal, so the reason for putting off a decision involves more of being able to reach that ideal or not - that's what authenticity is implying, staying true to the inner image of the ideal.

ah, that's a really good interpretation of it. it does sound really wound up in Ne. possibly being Ne heavy... i don't see the things being unconnected at all. my problem is i see as more connected than they are. interesting about the Fi ideal, i think i do that every once in a while too but this Ne thing much, much more. it's driven me to tears. i wonder how i counteract it... Te, probably. or Se. maybe just anything other than Ne, lol. thanks for the help.

I notice a lot in this thread people attributing too much to Fe/Fi, which are just one function that makes up an entire mindset. I especially notice that when Fe/Fe is in the aux position, the Fi/Fe user will confuse it with their perception in a way, because Fe/Fi is supporting their perception.

yeah, good point. i think they're hard to unravel sometimes.

Again, this is because you are Pe-dom and Fi is supporting your Ne. When I say Fi does not seek to be affected nor to affect, I mean it in a pure form. The further it gets from the dominant function, the less it looks like this pure form. In the aux function, it seems to motivate ENFPs to explore an ideal in reality, which can lead to them seeking to motivate others to explore their ideals. Fi-doms appear much more passive or indirect in this respect. It tends to be so subtle it is almost undetectable, or IS undetectable, especially to Fe.

huh. hence you guys being generally more okay with hanging out with a person in a difficult emotional state that they're in - helping them heal, while i prefer motivating... which i suppose is really healing too, in the sense of strengthening, but in any case i see the difference. yes, and in some ways that motivation is very driven by Ne because i can't be everything on my own, so at least i can help others be it. i can't be a field of wildflowers myself, but i can help others bloom, so to speak. both for their own joy and for the sheer beauty of it.

 

[Thalassa]

lol! when i am on a rampage i am STJ central. or last minute studying. i kick last minute studying ASS.

I think it's how I kept a 3.9 GPA. The problem is that people don't like me when I'm that way.

And frankly, I hate being control, though I have some bizarre urge to handle things if no one else will.

i always test INF too. at first i thought INFP but then when i was first learning about the functions i thought i was INFJ mostly because i am fairly clearly more N than F, and i have a few little latent J thought processes. but, complete lack of Ti. and later i realized i wasn't quite so hot on Ni or Fe either. i'm pretty happy with the ENFP label at this point, though. it's withstood self-questioning better than either INF type.

I think I act pretty J in real life in various ways, but it seriously appears that I have Fi rather than Fe.

If I totally ignore function theory and embrace Kiersey, then I could be INFJ. I could probably even be Socionics INFj.

But according to MBTI and function theory? NO WAY. I'm so Fi it's obvious (which is decidedly not INFJ), and I'm not really passive enough to qualify as INFP, either.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN REACTIVE AND EMO!?!? :steam::steam: am not

It sucks, because I think boys I like notice it more than anybody.

 

[OrangeAppled]

yeah, good point. i think they're hard to unravel sometimes.

Definitely....I think it was peacebaby who said once it's like trying to unbake a cake. I find it easier to discuss these things from theoretical standpoint because of that, but then all these real life examples also make me want to ask the reverse of the usual SP request: "Um, can I get an ABSTRACT example? Thanks...". All this concrete talk feels so specific it misses the point, from my view...

huh. hence you guys being generally more okay with hanging out with a person in a difficult emotional state that they're in - helping them heal, while i prefer motivating... which i suppose is really healing too, in the sense of strengthening, but in any case i see the difference. yes, and in some ways that motivation is very driven by Ne because i can't be everything on my own, so at least i can help others be it. i can't be a field of wildflowers myself, but i can help others bloom, so to speak. both for their own joy and for the sheer beauty of it.

I think that Fi in many ways is more visible in an ExFP because of this. It supports Pe, and so it's used more than guarded. Particularly in ESFPs, Fi is foreign to me in many ways. There's such a direct link to their personal experience, it can seem Fe-ish at times. There's such an awareness and valuing of what is "real" that the idealistic aspect of Fi is almost lost or just translated very differently.

On a tangent now.... IxFPs' feeling can seem "invisible" to many; even our emotions can go under the radar for awhile. I think it was Seymour who said we often appear aloof or "quiet but nice"; for myself, in situations with those I am not close to, I'd call it "harmlessly reserved", which people project niceness or aloofness onto, depending on what they are inclined to think already. This is because our Feeling is largely kept inside.

I can't even remember what all I've posted in here now, but there can be two modes to pure Fi: Fi that cares & Fi that doesn't care. If I seem passive, it's because I don't care, and 90% of the time I don't care about what other people seem to find important. It's definitely NOT a lack of spine or ability to be assertive when necessary - it's failure to identify the issue as significant. I worked with an ESTP who would call me "aggressive". This is probably because the project we worked on was something personally important to me. It's the "cause" mode for an INFP. When empathizing, a person can be a "cause", and then I might show some glimmer of real feeling.

And frankly, I hate being control, though I have some bizarre urge to handle things if no one else will.

I do this also. I don't volunteer leadership unless no one else is stepping up. Then I get annoyed because I probably have a gazillion ideas and can't fathom why no one else does. I usually just throw out suggestions though, to get the ball rolling.

 

[Thalassa]

On a tangent now.... IxFPs' feeling can seem "invisible" to many; even our emotions can go under the radar for awhile. I think it was Seymour who said we often appear aloof or "quiet but nice"; for myself, in situations with those I am not close to, I'd call it "harmlessly reserved", which people project niceness or aloofness onto, depending on what they are inclined to think already. This is because our Feeling is largely kept inside.

I can't even remember what all I've posted in here now, but there can be two modes to pure Fi: Fi that cares & Fi that doesn't care. If I seem passive, it's because I don't care, and 90% of the time I don't care about what other people seem to find important. It's definitely NOT a lack of spine or ability to be assertive when necessary - it's failure to identify the issue as significant. I worked with an ESTP who would call me "aggressive". This is probably because the project we worked on was something personally important to me. It's the "cause" mode for an INFP. When empathizing, a person can be a "cause", and then I might show some glimmer of real feeling.



I do this also. I don't volunteer leadership unless no one else is stepping up. Then I get annoyed because I probably have a gazillion ideas and can't fathom why no one else does. I usually just throw out suggestions though, to get the ball rolling.

Hmm. Maybe I could be INFP? I show a lot of my personality in writing. What you see on-line is a compilation of WHO I AM. I'm a writer. I was a Lit major.

 

[Amargith]

It's not denying, it's choosing not to share with another [I may very well have a deep acknowledgement of my emotions, but, I might not show that externally, for whatever reason - I don't have an obligation to share its depth with anyone; my only obligation is to myself].

The thing is..well, and here I'm going to be arrogant. You may not choose to share it, much like you'd put on a headset when listening to music, but I can still hear the music, so you *are* sharing it, whether you want to or not. And meanwhile I'm forced to listen to a style of music I don't really appreciate, and if I ask you to turn it down, you go 'What music?' and keep on listening. It's annoying

Sometimes I don't even know how to describe how I feel - that is honestly me - I'm still processing. And as my preference for Ne goes, with a trusted few, I like to put it out there to those people - for my own deeper understanding of my emotions.

I understand that. And once again, you have that right. And nobody's demanding that you figure it out pronto or reveal all to them. I'm just giving you the option to talk to me. If you rather not, that's ok too. But I'd rather you didn't deny it's not there. Coz that makes me doubt myself and wonder where that feeling is coming from (is it coming from me, what caused etc?) and just pisses me off when I finally have to conclude you're lying to me.

Just tell me it's you, so I can accomodate and make it 'not important background noise' in stead of making me waste energy to fix something that's not even my frigging mess and that I'm not able to fix since you won't let me.

Once again, I have no problem with your right to privacy and your right to mull things over. I'm just asking you to understand how this can be very frustrating and make me feel drained, tired and helpless, since I cannot ignore it (unless you tell me it's ok) and I cannot turn it off (since you won't let me). It's literally like sitting next to a fire alarm going off and not knowing *why* or if someone is already checking it out and if I should be aware of any smoke coming my way and being potentially hazardous. At least tell me it's just a fire-drill, or whatever.

All my F-dom/aux people get frustrated when I respond with, "I don't know" [to: how do you feel?] but it seems to personally aggravate my Fi-peeps more than my Fe-peeps. Fe-peeps see it as my being confused (nicely stated) or naive (not so nicely stated) [they can detach from it], Fi-peeps see it as my not acknowledging "what I already know" [they need their system validated].

It's more that, since it's our main perspective, it's hard to imagine someone *not* knowing what they feel when they're blurting it out so loudly to the rest of the world. It takes a while to have the patience to realize not everyone knows what they feel instantly. And..it's even harder to surpress the urge of going digging with you to figure it out (which I know can be traumatic especially to ENTPs) as we see it as a vital to you figuring it out and stop feeling that way (especially if it's a nasty emotion). Kinda like cleaning out a wound.

I've learned though that it's better to ask if I can dig for them or if there's anything that would help them self-reflect better, or if they'd like me to leave things be. If the latter, I'm likely to block your emotions or go away, since then I don't have to deal with it. Though I'll check up on you again later, especially if I care about you.

And if you guys can mirror emotions of another that much, how do you reassure others that their emotional states (say, negative) is not responsible for yours [likely adding to their emotional distress because they see that it had a ripple effect on you as well]? I.e., they are free to feel without wondering how it will affect/be mirrored by you? How do you make the focus about THEM and keep yourself out of it? Can you?

It takes practice. When I was younger I automatically mirrorred without knowing it. And, added my own stress that those emotions had caused as well into the mix. So yeah...that's pretty lethal. And no fair, or fun, but it's not something I had control over. Even more fun was that the other person responded to the hurt and you'd have a vicious cycle of pain.

After a while though you learn with focus and intent how to handle which emotions. If you're hurt and in pain, I will sympathize, but won't transfer the hurt it makes me feel to you. I'll transfer the soothing and the me wishing I could take away your pain-feeling. The comforting.

If you give me the faintest of smiles after that, I'll take that smile and magnify it a thousand times to mirror back at you in the hope of inspiring you to follow that feeling.

So you take the raw matter you get, and transform it into what you need to accomodate the situation. So yeah..you can dump all your pain on me..I don't mind, at all

One caveat: If I'm tired, or already overloaded emotionally myself, I cannot do that. I don't have the energy for manipulating emotions inside of me and I either become a big black hole of apathy or go supernova on people in mirroring *everything*. Stay away from me. Give me space (unless you know how to cancel out negative emotions yourself). I promise I'll be there for you later on.

One more thing: when you don't tell me something is wrong with you and it's..nothing big, chances are your foul mood will rub off on me without me knowing coz I'm busy elsewhere. That..I hate. Coz I have no idea where that foul mood came from. And..that makes me mirror that mood at *everyone* that crosses my path, which causes them to get their feathers ruffled and send me their negative energy. I hate that. That's what I call polluting, it's a messy clean up and its draining. My mind is focused elsewhere, so I don't realize I'm to transform that energy. Unless it reaches a certain level where it is enough to break my focus on that other thing.

I may not know what to do with said emotions (cuz I haven't truly processed it yet) - so what you're asking of me are things that may come easily for you, but those that have a lot of confusion or hindrance to easily accessing Fi-cognitive processes, it's asking for too much clarity, too soon. When the reason I'm seeking you out, in the first place, is because it's muddy as hell.

I don't know whether I even want it to be fixed, I don't know whether I wanna continue to feel that way. I don't know.....yet. All I know is I want some clarification regarding it, either way. If I already knew what to do with it, I wouldn't need to consult anyone.

I'm aware of that. And that is your good right. Those things aren't easy, and you should have the time to sort things out.

But plz..plz tell me this. Make me aware
That makes me focus on it, and accomodate it. Even if I'm not allowed to help out, at least let me keep myself from loading more negativity on you through accidental mirroring, as I can deliberately tune that emotion out, much like you would with background noise, when I focus on it. This in turn, leaves me blind though, so I don't like doing it. If, after that, you want me to help, you'll have to tap me on the shoulder, as my sensitivity will be significantly reduced (much like when wearing headsets)

Hmm, you wrote "without permission" before the edit, and I wanted to ask what you meant by that (permission), because I didn't understand how one needs to ask permission to pollute.

What, also, do you mean by pollute....when does a person sharing their emotions with you shift from revealing to polluting?

I can see how my not being honest with my emotions can be polluting though. It's the double-edged sword of Fi. It wants so badly that it may scare away [make them shut down] those who are not naturally versed in it, to even attempt to try.

I agree..it's like having a College professor teach a bunch of 12 year olds how to pursue a PhD in Chemistry (this is not meant to be offensive or condescending, for the record, as the same goes for us with your preferred functions).

I wrote without permission as a tongue in cheek thing, but decided to change it as I didn't wanna risk offense.

Actually the shift occurs from polluting to revealing. Much like with music, if you're listening to 20 different kinds of songs, it becomes a chaos that's hard on the ears..it becomes noise polution. However, single out one tune, and put on a head-set to listen to that one tune...and it's beautiful. The song *revealed* is a marvel in its own right. See my point?

Same goes for when I'm to study and there's a really loud TV in the background. It breaks your focus and concentration...even pissesoff, while if you were the one in front of the TV, giving the Tv your full attention, you probably would enjoy the show that's on

 

[KDude]

Just thought this was interesting.. Can we ever to get the bottom of anything? I mean, I identify with some of the things written in this link about Fe, but then I hear here that Fi is more open. Then I hear Fe is. Then I hear Fe isn't. Then I hear Fi types don't want to express anything and that they're values are enigmatic. Then I hear Fe shuts people out. Then... Meh. It's too much for to get a good picture of.

INFJ or INFP? -Self Disclosure

 

[Amargith]

I also think this thread needs ENFJs.

I mean, the I and E thing definitely takes part in this. I think ENFPs are way more open with their Fi than INFPs are and that INFPs are way more selective, despite it being somewhat the same process (that INFPs seem to have worked out even more than us). I think the same will be true for ENFJs and INFJs. I personally find it easier to connect with ENFJs as they're more open to connections, even if they use a different system.

 

[Tallulah]

Just thought this was interesting.. Can we ever to get the bottom of anything? I mean, I identify with some of the things written in this link about Fe, but then I hear here that Fi is more open. Then I hear Fe is. Then I hear Fe isn't. Then I hear Fi types don't want to express anything and that they're values are enigmatic. Then I hear Fe shuts people out. Then... Meh. It's too much for to get a good picture of.

INFJ or INFP? -Self Disclosure

Well, you have to decide how you usually operate in life without the judgment of whether one is more open (and hence better) than another. Obviously each will be biased to their own way of operation and in the heat of the moment, tend to perceive the other as presumptuous or hard to reach, or whatever. Don't attach a negative value to one or the other right off the bat. They're just preferences.

 

[Thalassa]

Just thought this was interesting.. Can we ever to get the bottom of anything? I mean, I identify with some of the things written in this link about Fe, but then I hear here that Fi is more open. Then I hear Fe is. Then I hear Fe isn't. Then I hear Fi types don't want to express anything and that they're values are enigmatic. Then I hear Fe shuts people out. Then... Meh. It's too much for to get a good picture of.

INFJ or INFP? -Self Disclosure

OH so now I AM an INFJ since I talk about myself.

I think I need to take a break from this for a while. lollercaust.

 

[KDude]

Well, you have to decide how you usually operate in life without the judgment of whether one is more open (and hence better) than another. Obviously each will be biased to their own way of operation and in the heat of the moment, tend to perceive the other as presumptuous or hard to reach, or whatever. Don't attach a negative value to one or the other right off the bat. They're just preferences.

I don't think one is better.. But I think one is better for me (or rather, more accurate). I'm just a little frustrated because I can't pin down what means what anymore. However, my basic impression would lead me say that it seems like there's an intrinsic element in the definition of Fe that's a little more interactive or environmental. But again, I could be wrong..who knows. I need to take a break for awhile too.

 

[Esoteric Wench]

Fe/Fi kvetching vs. reflecting: Yep. The antics have indeed ensued.

This will be the 600th post on this thread. That’s 600 posts in under 10 days. In my time on this forum, I’ve never seen any thread grow so quickly. Strong evidence indeed that this Fe/Fi conversation is long overdue.

However, as the originator of this thread, it falls upon me to remind everyone that the originally stated purpose of this discussion, and its suggested format, were very carefully structured to promote thoughtful discussion and deter kvetching about [insert your least favorite F function here].

Perhaps if I share a little background about why I suggested a three-question format in the OP, this will continue to foster a productive discourse.

Format. I anticipate a heated discussion with lots of, “This is why I hate (Fe/Fi)” comments. By conforming your comments to the below format, hopefully a more thoughtful discussion of the facts will ensue.

1. When [Fe/Fi] Went Awry: Explain situation you personally experienced when Fe or Fi caused problems. It can be your F function, or someone else’s.
2. Why Did [Fe/Fi] Do That?: What was [Fe/Fi]’s justification for doing what it did?
3. How Were Others Inconvenienced? : How did this display of [Fe/Fi] affect the other parties involved? It’s easy to explain why we felt motivated to use our Fe/Fi in a certain way. It’s much more difficult to articulate how your actions inconvenienced others.
4. Comments: Any additional comments you might have go here.

My inspiration for this format came from my personal study of Naikan meditation. Naikan reflection was developed by Yoshimoto Ishin (1916-1988) who added three questions to his mishirabe meditation practice.

• What have I received from __________ ?
• What have I given to __________ ?
• What troubles and difficulties have I caused __________ ?​

Note that a related fourth question, "What troubles and difficulties has __________ caused me?”, is purposely ignored. We’re all good at answering this question, but in Naikan, focusing too much of our time on asking and answering this question is at the center of a lot of human misery.

Yoshimoto believed that by shifting the focus of our self reflection from things we are certain about (like “this is how Fe/Fi bugs me”) to the troubles and difficulties we have caused (such as “this his how my Fe/Fi has run amuck”), we arrive at a perspective on our lives that sees beyond the usual blind spots that we all have regarding how we have been the source of others’ suffering. Until we have such a holistic perspective, says Yoshimoto, we cannot truly know ourselves or the grace by which we live.

(And, if my personal experiences means anything to those reading this post, let me just say that Naikan meditation was a real life changer for me. After getting through feeling like a schmuck for all the pain I’d inflicted on other people (intentionally or not), I then arrived at a place where I just felt grateful for all the kindnesses others had bestowed upon me. The resulting sense of gratitude and humility has been wonderful.)

So, let me gently suggest that you might find it a powerful experience to reflect on how your own Fe/Fi has caused others' pain. Because it has. Whether you realize it or not.

I think sharing our own stories in a kind and supportive environment can be a very powerful learning tool. And, given the popularity of this thread, it looks like a lot of people want to understand Fe and Fi, and the conflict that sometimes comes between them, better.

It’d be really great if more of you (especially the Fe users who have been largely silent on this front) shared your experiences of your Fe/Fi gone awry. And, for the readers of said posts, let me humbly remind you that but for the grace of God go you. So rather than using other people’s stories of Fe/Fi going awry as a launching point for your own grousing, perhaps you can choose to use it as an opportunity for your own self-reflection.