The Opposite of Truth

[Salomé]

Some good answers people, thanks for your input.
Though some have bristled at the question because they are interpreting it moralistically. I would ask that you suspend such an interpretation (if you can). Proceed on the basis that lying is a "good" or at least necessary part of normal, conflict-free social interaction. This is the premise of the film, in which the guy who stumbles upon the ability to lie, uses it (primarily) to comfort others (he invents God, religion, the afterlife, for example.)

Disregarding your error of discluding the extroverted attitude of Thinking, your conclusion still has no basis.
Feeling and Thinking are not opposites. They don't even get in the way of each other whatsoever. To imply that they do just means you've been misapplying the system

My basis is drawn from Cognitive Function theory, which holds (as you know) that where Ti is the dominant function, Fe is inferior to the point of being unused (and vice-versa). This aspect of CF theory is born out anecdotally, and in tests which measure the relative strength of functions. Whilst function order is rarely exactly as the theory predicts, Dom-Tis always seem to have weak Fe. Function theory holds that we cannot exercise both Ti and Fe in tandem - something has to give, because these functions (while not opposites in the strictest of senses) do oppose each other.

Feeling is important/unimportant. Thinking is truth/not-truth.

Precisely. One cannot consider both the truth/untruth of a matter and its (social) importance, simultaneously. One cannot focus on the object and the subject at the same time. This is where differentiation begins - where is our habitual focus, what is our preferred function? Ti can weigh the social importance in objective terms - it can understand social mores as a system - but its focus is Truth, always Truth. So to respond in a Fe-sensitive way is a very real violation of that (even if one knows, objectively, it's the "right" thing to do). I think this is why social interaction can be so exhausting and dispiriting for most INTPs (unless it's with other INTs). We understand what is required, but to indulge it we must constantly oppose our natural instinct, our preferred way of being. It's not just a question of developing Fe as we mature - which is the standard interpretation - it's a question of sacrificing that which is core to identity. That creates a real tension and is perhaps the reason so many of us isolate ourselves, or develop social anxiety, obsessive-compulsive behaviours, depression or other real psychological dis-ease. (By which I mean something detrimental to health, happiness, and growth).

Fe-loving society likes to diagnose the Ti-dom as "autistic" to one degree or other, thus designating our natural talents a "disorder". But what if Ti-dominance were the standard? Maybe we'd diagnose Fe-doms as sociopaths, or pathological liars, or hysterics or some as yet unthought of "disorder". (The word dis-order is interesting in itself: that it might be pathological to order your world and priorities differently to the norm.)

Think about it. We have lots of derogatory labels for people who are Fe-deficient, how many for people who are Ti-deficient? About the best we have come up with is "illogical"/"irrational", but where are the equivalent "disorders" in DSM IV?

I am proposing that it might be this Extroverted Feeling assessment (that Ti is inferior, because Fe-dom Ti is indeed, inferior) that actually creates real social and mental health problems for Ti doms - that these are nurture induced and not innate. And that the whole edifice is built on a foundation of valuing comforting falsities over truth.

To even conclude that you shouldn't do something Thinking labels false (for example), you are using an F function. Feeling to say it's unimportant, Thinking to say it's false.

This isn't about making a moral judgement. It's about opposing instincts (or default modes of behaviour). Ti (comfort-zone) says "do this". Fe (the enemy) says "do the opposite". Social interactions will, in general, punish Ti-doms for behaving naturally. They force us to lie, to others, and more importantly, to ourselves. How could this yield anything other than anxiety in social situations and/or a loss of self-intimacy? We can either be comfortable with ourselves and social outcasts, or socially acceptable and internally conflicted.

If you want to talk about T-types and F-types, that's a whole different discussion.

That is what I'm talking about. Functions don't lie, people do.


(I'm also aware that I am doing exactly the same thing that I accuse society of, in reverse, before anyone points out the obvious).

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

If perhaps society were clever enough they would see that Ti enjoys doing 'the opposite' of Fe, the inferior, and decide that 'morals' shouldn't be followed so that they would be. This doesn't change the fact that we're a minority. This obviously would never work in practice as we WOULD still be a minority. And Fe-doms. would start to follow society and end up massacring those around them. Just to do what's 'right', not what is true. Extreme case, but a case none the less.

 

[Arclight]

The opposite of truth is more truth.

The only truth that exists is that of what the perceived perceives as truth.

In that vein, everything is also false.

What function am I using?

 

[Jaguar]

Function theory holds that we cannot exercise both Ti and Fe in tandem - something has to give, because these functions (while not opposites in the strictest of senses) do oppose each other.

You say that as if there is only one theory regarding the functions. It's common knowledge there are many theories. Too many to even list, actually.
The following comments are from Dario Nardi:

"Jung described how the functions exist in dynamic function, and as we mature, especially at midlife, we may integrate opposite functions. Someone who prefers Ni, may be initially closed to using Se, finding it unpleasant, difficult, and unrewarding. This would result in one-sided behavior in many situations. "

"Jung believed that psychological dysfunction would result without the compensating balance of one's opposite function, and that this compensation happened naturally."

Furthermore, it is also Dario Nardi who proposed using functions in tandem:


Engage Processes in Tandem for Powerful Results

Each of the cognitive processes can be used with its opposite in a tandem relationship.
At first a process and its “opposite” may feel in tension with each other, but with practice you will discover ways to use them together effectively. As you develop a process, you can draw on the examples below to enhance your use and create powerful results. Examples of using all the functions in tandem can be found by scrolling midway down the page, at the follwing link:

8 Keys to Self Leadership

 

[ragashree]

My basis is drawn from Cognitive Function theory, which holds (as you know) that where Ti is the dominant function, Fe is inferior to the point of being unused (and vice-versa). This aspect of CF theory is born out anecdotally, and in tests which measure the relative strength of functions. Whilst function order is rarely exactly as the theory predicts, Dom-Tis always seem to have weak Fe. Function theory holds that we cannot exercise both Ti and Fe in tandem - something has to give, because these functions (while not opposites in the strictest of senses) do oppose each other.

Precisely. One cannot consider both the truth/untruth of a matter and its (social) importance, simultaneously. One cannot focus on the object and the subject at the same time. This is where differentiation begins - where is our habitual focus, what is our preferred function?

Arguably not simultaneously (though it's pretty difficult to prove this either way) but, as I've attempted to explain to people a few times before on here, I don't think there's much value in trying to deduce whole cognitive schemata from what may be happening in the mind at any one instant. As soon as we step outside that instant in which a person is putatively focused on a single aspect of experiencing, a whole complex process comes into being which is defined not by the use of a single function, but the interplay of the whole range of functions that an individual has access to and skill in using. If someone chooses to disregard a particular mode of perception entirely because they have difficulty resolving it with their preferred one, that's quite another matter. Ignoring it won't make it go away, however, it's just a strategy for reducing cognitive dissonance at a conscious level, though it will probably resurface later in other ways, as I'll try to explain further in a minute.

Ti can weigh the social importance in objective terms - it can understand social mores as a system - but its focus is Truth, always Truth. So to respond in a Fe-sensitive way is a very real violation of that (even if one knows, objectively, it's the "right" thing to do). I think this is why social interaction can be so exhausting and dispiriting for most INTPs (unless it's with other INTs). We understand what is required, but to indulge it we must constantly oppose our natural instinct, our preferred way of being. It's not just a question of developing Fe as we mature - which is the standard interpretation - it's a question of sacrificing that which is core to identity. That creates a real tension and is perhaps the reason so many of us isolate ourselves, or develop social anxiety, obsessive-compulsive behaviours, depression or other real psychological dis-ease. (By which I mean something detrimental to health, happiness, and growth).

That just sounds like a rather elaborate rationalisation for a Ti dominant person not wanting to work on developing social skills. Now, I regard the failure to develop those skills as being in some respects a perfectly valid exercise of individual CHOICE if that is what keeps the person happy and does not actively harm others: but by your own admission here it very frequently does not keep the person happy. An entirely logical, internalised response which dissociates from the feeling function entirely in response to social demands (as you would presumably associate with Ti) would be to ignore them as unimportant unless they materially impede your progress in doing what you have defined as important to yourself; and if they do to look for a way to resolve this in a rational manner. You, however, describe disturbed psychological functioning which results from emotional turmoil.

The subjective problem, therefore, is not simply that the person is a person with a preference for Ti, but that they are a person with a preference for Ti, who has vulnerable feelings. Perhaps those feelings would be less vulnerable if they were better developed and understood, instead of being denied and rationalised from conscious awareness, invisible and unagknowledged until they strike from ambush with power that can devastate the psyche?

Fe-loving society likes to diagnose the Ti-dom as "autistic" to one degree or other, thus designating our natural talents a "disorder". But what if Ti-dominance were the standard? Maybe we'd diagnose Fe-doms as sociopaths, or pathological liars, or hysterics or some as yet unthought of "disorder". (The word dis-order is interesting in itself: that it might be pathological to order your world and priorities differently to the norm.)

Think about it. We have lots of derogatory labels for people who are Fe-deficient, how many for people who are Ti-deficient? About the best we have come up with is "illogical"/"irrational", but where are the equivalent "disorders" in DSM IV?

1) DSM-IV may be the bible for diagnosing psychiatric disorders according to the contemporary medical model, but this does not make it the first, middle, and last word in understanding psychic and social functioning.

2) I hope you're not being influenced here by Sim's ill-informed theory of personality disorders being related to certain forms of cognitive function usage?

3) To your last question, let's try looking at the Histrionic, Dependent, and Borderline personality disorders with reference to how negative, unhealthy, Fe-infuenced behaviour might be expected to manifest. Passive-aggressive behaviour (though not generally classified as a disorder at present) is also strongly associated with the Fe stereotype.

I'm not going to comment on whether Fe dominant, secondary, tertiary, or inferior functioning is likely to be associated with them, as I would have thought it should be obvious that the relative conscious preference of a person for a particular cognitive function has no necessary bearing on whether they are able to use it in a healthy manner. It is, however, transparantly not the case that Ti-type behaviour suffers unduly in comparison to Fe-type behaviour at the level of pathologisation: though it might indeed be the case that those who exhibit strong Ti traits and weak Fe traits suffer by comparison to those with more developed Fe in terms of ordinary, everyday social functioning. But as I said earlier, why, if their internalised quest for truth and coherency is the only thing that truly matters, are they allowing themselves to suffer?

You seem to be equating "Truth to oneself" with the absence of cognitive dissonance. I would counter-hypothesise that this is a rationalisation founded on the Ti preference for building a completely internally coherent model of experience, which begins to disintegrate at the point where it fails to integrate the simple truth that humans are both rational and emotional beings, no matter how Ti they may be.

 

[redacted]

My basis is drawn from Cognitive Function theory, which holds (as you know) that where Ti is the dominant function, Fe is inferior to the point of being unused (and vice-versa). This aspect of CF theory is born out anecdotally, and in tests which measure the relative strength of functions. Whilst function order is rarely exactly as the theory predicts, Dom-Tis always seem to have weak Fe. Function theory holds that we cannot exercise both Ti and Fe in tandem - something has to give, because these functions (while not opposites in the strictest of senses) do oppose each other.

See, I guess I've already completely thrown out that part of the theory in my understanding. The whole thing about Ti and Fe not being about to work in tandem is utter BS. In fact, everything a xxTP or xxFJ does includes both Feeling and Thinking. The Feeling just looks different on the surface in TPs than FJs. It's not actually a different cognitive mechanism at play, though.

Seriously, even a Ti user being like "that doesn't make sense, stop that!" is using Feeling implicitly ("it's important to be efficient with your time" or something). The most hardcore aspie, even, is still using Feeling with their Thinking, because maybe they are constantly hurt and surprised by other people and think it's important for people to be more consistent and direct with them. You can't escape Feeling or Thinking for even one second (if you're awake at least).

It seems like you think that your "Ti-ish" actions are functionally explanable as JUST Thinking. But for every narrative you construct to deem yourself logical, I could construct a counter-narrative from the perspective of Feeling.

The difference between F-types and T-types isn't necessarily that they use the specific functions more often, only that their personal narrative caters to those attitudes more.

I actually shouldn't be directing this at you (because you haven't given much data about your personal opinion here), but it really seems like a majority of T-types on this forum actually believe they are objectively more logical people than F-types. And that just isn't true. I mean, maybe they're good at math or something, but Feeling is just as inescapable for them as it is for everyone else.

T-types that feel this way are actually being illogical because they refuse to accept the way other people work, and continue to idealize psychology as if everyone being "logical" (their own self-serving definition, of course) is even a possibility. Or as if they're even some sort of outlier.

It's just as F-ish to wish other people were more logical as it is to just allow yourself to view value judgments as a completely obvious part of interpersonal interaction.

Precisely. One cannot consider both the truth/untruth of a matter and its (social) importance, simultaneously. One cannot focus on the object and the subject at the same time. This is where differentiation begins - where is our habitual focus, what is our preferred function? Ti can weigh the social importance in objective terms - it can understand social mores as a system - but its focus is Truth, always Truth.

Wait a sec, you're framing this as if Thinking is the only thing at play. To even analyze a social sitution whatsoever, you're starting with all sorts of assumptions. Those assumptions are FEELING!!!!!! Just because your logic works from that point on doesn't mean Feeling isn't just as necessary in your social judgment.

So to respond in a Fe-sensitive way is a very real violation of that (even if one knows, objectively, it's the "right" thing to do). I think this is why social interaction can be so exhausting and dispiriting for most INTPs (unless it's with other INTs). We understand what is required, but to indulge it we must constantly oppose our natural instinct, our preferred way of being.

Eh. I really dislike this explanation. If someone has a hard time accepting the way reality is, they're being irrational. You could easily come up with a T-narrative for why catering to social rules is actually way more efficient.

For example, you say to yourself, okay, people are generally defensive if I use this sort of approach. If they get defensive, I will have to waste my time overexplaining something to them. So for my own sake, and the sake of efficiency, I will phrase my comment in a way that's more likely to be interpreted clearly. That's just the way psychology works. Tone and approach carry at least as much meaning as words themselves. To factor those out is to ignore a part of psychological reality.

Instead, I see many Ts being like "I just want to be able to say the truth and expect everyone to just hear me immediately". Well, fine, wish away. The real truth, though, is that EVERYONE has their own psychological defenses. If you choose to enter into a relationship and want to be logical about it, what you should be asking yourself is, "do the pros outweigh the cons of being friends with this person?" You should factor EVERYTHING in. What are their shortcomings? Are those compensated by what they offer me? Etc. Etc. And if you decide that you still do want to be in a relationship with that person, you're being illogical to expect them to defer to your take on the truth of any situation (after all, you accept their shortcomings by being in the relationship in the first place). Just because you think something is the truth doesn't mean it's representative of the psychological back-and-forth in relationships. Your premises could be inaccurate. To expect yourself to both be impeccable at deciding the scope of an issue for both people AND to be logical for both people seems pretty over the top.

It's not just a question of developing Fe as we mature - which is the standard interpretation - it's a question of sacrificing that which is core to identity. That creates a real tension and is perhaps the reason so many of us isolate ourselves, or develop social anxiety, obsessive-compulsive behaviours, depression or other real psychological dis-ease. (By which I mean something detrimental to health, happiness, and growth).

So the "core" of a T-dominants mentality is to dismiss everything that doesn't fit their personal interpretation of truth? That's bullshit.

Fe-loving society likes to diagnose the Ti-dom as "autistic" to one degree or other, thus designating our natural talents a "disorder". But what if Ti-dominance were the standard? Maybe we'd diagnose Fe-doms as sociopaths, or pathological liars, or hysterics or some as yet unthought of "disorder". (The word dis-order is interesting in itself: that it might be pathological to order your world and priorities differently to the norm.)

The reason this tendency is sometimes framed as a disorder is that it literally FAILS to account for what reality is. You can say, "well, society should just be this other way!" as much as you want, but it isn't. The "Fe" people just expect people to factor in more of reality than these "Ti" people do. Because psychology IS reality. I might wish it were different, too, but I'm not going to be pissed off at other people for not having the same wish as I do.

Think about it. We have lots of derogatory labels for people who are Fe-deficient, how many for people who are Ti-deficient? About the best we have come up with is "illogical"/"irrational", but where are the equivalent "disorders" in DSM IV?

I actually think it's worse for Thinking deficients. They're just dismissed as idiots. At least the aspies are respected for their minds.

You seriously want a DSM category for "dumb"?

Because, yes, I agree with you, people that cannot use logic will have many problems in the world. Probably more than you. People take them way less seriously than an "Fe-deficient" person.

Are you suggesting we give them more understanding? It sounds like that's the opposite of what you mean.

There are of course going to be problems with people deficient in any cognitive function. (After all, that's what deficient means.)

I am proposing that it might be this Extroverted Feeling assessment (that Ti is inferior, because Fe-dom Ti is indeed, inferior) that actually creates real social and mental health problems for Ti doms - that these are nurture induced and not innate. And that the whole edifice is built on a foundation of valuing comforting falsities over truth.

That's true of your argument as well. People in general just aren't the way you are saying they should be. You're being just as irrational by dismissing psychology as they are for dismissing dismissing psychology. (I swear, that made sense!)

This isn't about making a moral judgement. It's about opposing instincts (or default modes of behaviour). Ti (comfort-zone) says "do this". Fe (the enemy) says "do the opposite". Social interactions will, in general, punish Ti-doms for behaving naturally. They force us to lie, to others, and more importantly, to ourselves. How could this yield anything other than anxiety in social situations and/or a loss of self-intimacy? We can either be comfortable with ourselves and social outcasts, or socially acceptable and internally conflicted.

I completely disagree with your implication that ignoring social rules is the natural way for T-dominants.

A truth about ALL people is this: we go through life with incorrect understandings of reality and make them less incorrect as we bump up against problems and learn lessons. It seems like you're saying that you shouldn't have to learn lessons. That's the reason I can't let your argument stand. It's very self-centered.

That is what I'm talking about. Functions don't lie, people do.


(I'm also aware that I am doing exactly the same thing that I accuse society of, in reverse, before anyone points out the obvious).

Don't know if I just did that. But I think I made some quite legitimate points, so hopefully you'll read those for their content

 

[Synapse]

I rambled lots about something yesterday, twice and decided against posting.

Although as temporal vessels who perish like consumable goods expire, truth and lies are a very human construct. The difference is the speed of abruptness. We all tell porkies, whether we lie to ourselves or the outside world. Its about perception of reality, and perceptions of reality is about values of judgments. Truth is what our core beliefs want to interpret as truth through our functions.

 

[Jaguar]

Lacking an orientation to outer facts, introverted thinking types can easily get lost in a fantasy world. Their subjective orientation may seduce them into creating theories for their own sake, apparently based on reality, but tied to an inner image. In the extreme case, this image becomes all-consuming and alienates them from others. As might be expected, these types tend to be indifferent to the opinions of others. They will present their logical assessment of reality - as they see it -and not care one way or another how it is received. (Personality Types, Jung's Model of Typology p.71)

Knowing Ti can spin an endless web of subjectivity, it's far more reasonable to mistrust Ti than Fe.
There is no "truth function." Claiming there is such a thing helps no one understand themselves, or anyone else.

 

[Salomé]

^If you don't understand how being told to mistrust one's dominant function is harmful (not to say, ridiculous), then it will be impossible for you to grasp what I'm trying to say.

See, I guess I've already completely thrown out that part of the theory in my understanding.

So then we have a theoretical disagreement. But your understanding isn't supported by the facts. The fact is that Ti-doms are almost always Fe-deficient. Maybe Ti and Fe "functions" will turn out to be meaningless constructs, whatever, it's still an effective shorthand for types of behaviours and value systems that are both real and ideologically incompatible. This isn't even up for debate. Empirically it is obvious: If two people take a personality test (essentially choosing between two opposing options which indicate a preference for Fe-type decision-making or Ti-type decision-making) and one scores as a Ti-dom, the other as a Fe-dom, those people have indicated very different value systems and approaches.

Ask the Ti-dom to act in Fe-consistent way and he will experience difficulty and internal tension. Ask the Fe-dom to act in a Ti-consistent way and you have the same problem.
What I'm saying is the the first scenario is a daily reality for Ti-doms and the second rarely happens at all. So who is going to experience greater social comfort and greater social fluency? And who is going to suffer with low self-esteem and other psychological dis-ease?
And it's not the case that Fe-doms are going to be more socially adept irrespective of environment, which seems like an obvious counterargument. Put a Fe-dom in with a bunch of INTPs and see how well they navigate that social terrain. Most of them will suck at it (and probably piss everyone off). Some of the most offensive and inconsiderate people I know have been Fe-dom.
Fe <> social skills. It simply means proficiency in a Fe-dom environment. Subtle, but important distinction.

The most hardcore aspie, even, is still using Feeling with their Thinking, because maybe they are constantly hurt and surprised by other people and think it's important for people to be more consistent and direct with them. You can't escape Feeling or Thinking for even one second (if you're awake at least).

"Hurt" and "surprise" are emotions. Don't conflate Feeling with emotion - schoolboy error. Nowhere have I suggested that Ts are not susceptible to the same emotions Fs are. In fact, my whole argument has been about the emotional and psychological consequences of being Ti-dom in a Fe-dom world.

The difference between F-types and T-types isn't necessarily that they use the specific functions more often,

That's exactly what it means. They prefer that function, it is a natural strength, ergo, they use it more often (unless circumstances force them to act against their own natural proclivities).

T-types that feel this way are actually being illogical because they refuse to accept the way other people work, and continue to idealize psychology as if everyone being "logical" (their own self-serving definition, of course) is even a possibility.

Agreed. Not part of my argument though.

Wait a sec, you're framing this as if Thinking is the only thing at play. To even analyze a social sitution whatsoever, you're starting with all sorts of assumptions. Those assumptions are FEELING!!!!!! Just because your logic works from that point on doesn't mean Feeling isn't just as necessary in your social judgment.

Wrong. Analysis does not require feeling judgement. Truly objective analysis both recognises and puts aside one's subjective assumptions (which can only be done to the extent that they are conscious and understood). This is irrelevant to my point though.

Eh. I really dislike this explanation. If someone has a hard time accepting the way reality is, they're being irrational. You could easily come up with a T-narrative for why catering to social rules is actually way more efficient.

I did that already. It has nothing to do with having a hard time accepting reality. Reality is subjective. Ti-doms appreciate this better than most. Fe-doms don't have to. They say "there is one reality, mine, if you don't think/behave like I do, and value the things that I value, there is something wrong with you". Recognising that society is (almost inevitably) constructed around a Fe-based reality, which is pretty much directly opposed to how one operates as a Ti-dom, doesn't make one irrational. It's just a fact.

For example, you say to yourself, okay, people are generally defensive if I use this sort of approach. If they get defensive, I will have to waste my time overexplaining something to them. So for my own sake, and the sake of efficiency, I will phrase my comment in a way that's more likely to be interpreted clearly.

I think most Ts do learn to do this. I also think it pisses them off and creates inner tension since it is not natural for them. My argument is this means that one half of the population has to constantly capitulate to the feelings of the other. What's fair about that? Just saying "it's reality" means less than nothing. That it is reality is implicit in my criticism. Why would I critique fantasy worlds?

So the "core" of a T-dominants mentality is to dismiss everything that doesn't fit their personal interpretation of truth? That's bullshit.

Not at all. You are completely missing the point.

Are you suggesting we give them more understanding? It sounds like that's the opposite of what you mean.

I'm not suggesting changing anything. I'm offering a way of understanding some types of psychopathology. I'm suggesting that abnormal (in the sense of departing from the norm) is not the same as dysfunctional. Isn't this the whole premise of MBTI, after all? I'm suggesting that real dysfunction is brought about by insisting that they are the same. That this prejudice is implicit and insidious and toxic. That it is at least as legitimate to value truth over lies as to value lies over truth. (And let's not get into the subjective nature of "truth". All of us know when we are lying/faking.).

I completely disagree with your implication that ignoring social rules is the natural way for T-dominants.

For Ti, it is, you don't understand Ti if you don't understand this. No "rule" is given legitimacy simply because it exists. It must make sense, or else it is either dismissed (the preferred option) or endured (the psychologically harmful one,imo).

You say that as if there is only one theory regarding the functions. It's common knowledge there are many theories. Too many to even list, actually....

Interesting references, thanks.

That just sounds like a rather elaborate rationalisation for a Ti dominant person not wanting to work on developing social skills.

Nope.

The subjective problem, therefore, is not simply that the person is a person with a preference for Ti, but that they are a person with a preference for Ti, who has vulnerable feelings. Perhaps those feelings would be less vulnerable if they were better developed and understood, instead of being denied and rationalised from conscious awareness, invisible and unagknowledged until they strike from ambush with power that can devastate the psyche?

This has nothing to do with denying feelings. It has to do with HAVING ONE'S OWN FEELINGS and one's natural mode of expression/way of being denied as having any legitimacy. You're doing it right here. So did Evan.

1) DSM-IV may be the bible for diagnosing psychiatric disorders according to the contemporary medical model, but this does not make it the first, middle, and last word in understanding psychic and social functioning.

2) I hope you're not being influenced here by Sim's ill-informed theory of personality disorders being related to certain forms of cognitive function usage?

I haven't even heard his theory. I hope you're not implying that I'm unable to think for myself? 'Cos that would be rude.

3) To your last question, let's try looking at the Histrionic, Dependent, and Borderline personality disorders with reference to how negative, unhealthy, Fe-infuenced behaviour might be expected to manifest. Passive-aggressive behaviour (though not generally classified as a disorder at present) is also strongly associated with the Fe stereotype.

That's actually still Fe-deficient (an unhealthy expression of the function). So it kind of proves my point rather than contends it. Our language, literature and psychiatry reflect the Fe-bias (how could they not?)

It is, however, transparantly not the case that Ti-type behaviour suffers unduly in comparison to Fe-type behaviour at the level of pathologisation:

I disagree. Much in the same way that introversion used to be thought of as dysfunctional (and still is, in many ways), rather than as simply a different but equally legitimate, way of being.

You seem to be equating "Truth to oneself" with the absence of cognitive dissonance. I would counter-hypothesise that this is a rationalisation founded on the Ti preference for building a completely internally coherent model of experience, which begins to disintegrate at the point where it fails to integrate the simple truth that humans are both rational and emotional beings, no matter how Ti they may be.

Ti has no problem understanding the complexity of human beings. Many psychological breakthroughs have been contributed by Ti-doms, after all.

I'm struggling to understand why my point is so difficult to comprehend. Perhaps it is for anyone who is deeply immersed/invested in the status quo. Some people are simply incapable of suspending their assumptions about reality and considering alternatives. This is Ti's gift. Unfortunately, because of the very fact that we can appreciate and understand different ways of being, we are usually the ones who are forced to compromise our own truth and substitute it for something that often seems absurdly inferior.
C'est la vie.

 

[Jaguar]

^If you don't understand how being told to mistrust one's dominant function is harmful (not to say, ridiculous), then it will be impossible for you to grasp what I'm trying to say.

If you don't understand how people being told Ti is "truth" and Fe is "lying" is harmful (not to say, ridiculous) then it will be impossible for you to grasp what I'm trying to say.

You're looking for a Ti pity party, Blue. Your own. It's getting pretty boring when people like yourself continue to use type as an excuse to justify your own shortcomings. Shortcomings that others don't necessarily have. Without mentioning names, there is an INTP here who has a lovely Ti-Fe balance. I noticed it the moment the person stepped into this forum. Just because you are "deficient" as you call it, in Fe, doesn't mean other INTPs are or have to be. Function development depends on many things - including age, the family environment and life experiences. One INTP may be so one-sided they appear to be nothing but a caricature. Another INTP can be so well-balanced you wouldn't even know how to type them. That's when you know you've struck gold: the one-sided personality isn't blinking in your face like a neon light.

 

[Wonkavision]

The opposite of truth is more truth.

The only truth that exists is that of what the perceived perceives as truth.

In that vein, everything is also false.

What function am I using?

Sounds like Ti bullshit uh...reasoning to me.

 

[garbage]

This is tangential, but I don't care.

Interpersonally? Given your definition; there are some strong cases to be made. Although, these particular notions of "truth" and "lying" could use terms that don't have the connotation that those have. I assume that this is the focus of the thread.


But objectively and/or on a larger scale? I'd say no. I'm sure that both functions can be used to uncover part of whatever "truth" is out there (conflating judging and perceiving here, probably, but.. you get the point). This applies to everyone, regardless of cognitive function order; we've all got our biases that affect our perceptions and actions.

People lie to themselves when they believe that they've got the whole truth and act with that assumption in mind. It's just a more indirect and "passive" form of lying--outright denial.

But then again, is ignorance of that limitation "lying"? To the extent that one doesn't want to discover the whole truth, I'd say that leads back into denial.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Ti is the “Truth” function, right? So is Fe the lying function?

Discuss.

Ti would never sacrifice losing 'the truth' for others benefits. Whereas if Fe felt that it was in everyones interest to avoid the truth, if only for a while, they would. This would cause them to inadvertantly lie.

 

[Salomé]

That's when you know you've struck gold: the one-sided personality isn't blinking in your face like a neon light.

Well yours certainly does. You seem to be incapable of having a conversation that doesn't descend into personal insults and baiting. It's pathetic. Isn't it about time you grew up?

This is tangential, but I don't care.

Interpersonally? Given your definition; there are some strong cases to be made. Although, these particular notions of "truth" and "lying" could use terms that don't have the connotation that those have. I assume that this is the focus of the thread.

The thread doesn't really have a focus. Nor is it very interesting. I did write the OP when I was half-cut so it's not surprising.

I have a number of other ideas about the evolution of lying and social intelligence, but the lack of decent feedback and the tiresome defensiveness makes it not worth the effort of typing...

 

[Craft]

Does 'truth' exist? Ok, I'm utterly confused by the semantic foundations here...

The opposite of truth is falsehood. But is there truth in anything? Is there falsehood?There is nothing that is both.

I think Ti is more of a precision function, not a lie-detector. It can sacrifice Fe.

But is Ti the opposite of Fe? I don't think so...

Ti-Fe relationship is repressive but not entirely polar opposites.

 

[redacted]

^If you don't understand how being told to mistrust one's dominant function is harmful (not to say, ridiculous), then it will be impossible for you to grasp what I'm trying to say.So then we have a theoretical disagreement. But your understanding isn't supported by the facts. The fact is that Ti-doms are almost always Fe-deficient. Maybe Ti and Fe "functions" will turn out to be meaningless constructs, whatever, it's still an effective shorthand for types of behaviours and value systems that are both real and ideologically incompatible. This isn't even up for debate. Empirically it is obvious: If two people take a personality test (essentially choosing between two opposing options which indicate a preference for Fe-type decision-making or Ti-type decision-making) and one scores as a Ti-dom, the other as a Fe-dom, those people have indicated very different value systems and approaches.

Not necessarily. All tests force you to do a dimensionality reduction on your absurdly-high-dimensional psychological space. Forced answer (multiple choice) tests are by definition forcing you to throw away information about your psychology.

Those two people could easily have completely compatible social approaches, even if they might have a different internal narrative to explain them.

Saying Fe-style processing is extra hard for Ti users isn't actually something I disagree with as a trend, maybe even a very strong correlation.

But to talk about Fe users as if they by definition are intolerant of Ti-style thinking is almost insultingly dismissive. Some are, and they're assholes. Some Ti users refuse to accept emotional reality, and they're assholes too.

There's nothing so unequal going on.

Ask the Ti-dom to act in Fe-consistent way and he will experience difficulty and internal tension. Ask the Fe-dom to act in a Ti-consistent way and you have the same problem.
What I'm saying is the the first scenario is a daily reality for Ti-doms and the second rarely happens at all. So who is going to experience greater social comfort and greater social fluency? And who is going to suffer with low self-esteem and other psychological dis-ease?

Really? So you think Fe users somehow have less conflict than Ti users? (they seem to bump up against disagreement even MORE often than Ti users imo) You think everyone who uses Fe agrees on some specific set of morals? Feeling is SUBJECTIVE. Who are you to say that making judgments in a subjective framework is intolerant?

You are using as much Fe as Ti right now. Your complaint about this "intolerance" is, by definition, Feeling. It is a value judgment (the way things SHOULD be for people) and not a truth judgment (plain old descriptions of reality).

And it's not the case that Fe-doms are going to be more socially adept irrespective of environment, which seems like an obvious counterargument. Put a Fe-dom in with a bunch of INTPs and see how well they navigate that social terrain. Most of them will suck at it (and probably piss everyone off). Some of the most offensive and inconsiderate people I know have been Fe-dom.
Fe <> social skills. It simply means proficiency in a Fe-dom environment. Subtle, but important distinction.

This is where I call BS. You give them no room to have any skill a Ti user doesn't have. You clearly assume Ti users are better at logical reasoning than Fe users, but you give the Fe users no counter-skill?

T-types consciously think about logic more than value, that is all. Just like F-types consciously think about value more than logic. But a T-user will implicitly assume his stance is "good", and an F-user his stance "true".

Sounds to me you just think Ti users are better (which, by the way is a value judgment). The rest is just whining.

"Hurt" and "surprise" are emotions. Don't conflate Feeling with emotion - schoolboy error.

You are right, I didn't explain my point using consistent terms. What I meant was even aspies consciously think about the "wrongness" of the way people treat them.

Nowhere have I suggested that Ts are not susceptible to the same emotions Fs are. In fact, my whole argument has been about the emotional and psychological consequences of being Ti-dom in a Fe-dom world.
That's exactly what it means. They prefer that function, it is a natural strength, ergo, they use it more often (unless circumstances force them to act against their own natural proclivities).

Agreed. Not part of my argument though.

Wrong. Analysis does not require feeling judgement. Truly objective analysis both recognises and puts aside one's subjective assumptions (which can only be done to the extent that they are conscious and understood). This is irrelevant to my point though.

No, you!!!!!!!!

But seriously, analysis requires a framework (a set of consistent premises). How do you think you get that framework? You decide what points are important to make. Keyword important. The word is meaningless objectively -- it's a subjective term. You have some conversational goal, or maybe some goal that you want to figure out something, or whatever. THEN you analyze. Sure, if you use thinking, your conclusions will be entailed by your premises. But why those premises? That's where you are using F (and for some reason not acknowledging it).


I really just think your understanding of the functions is flawed, so when you're throwing these terms around you actually mean something other than the actual definitions. I suspect we would probably agree if you made this exact same argument in longhand (full explanations instead of the verbal shortcuts of the functions).

The problem I see here is the dimensionality reduction thing. When you use an MBTI framework, you're throwing away information. That's useful to do when shorthand is necessary. But here, you're just losing data for no good reason.

I'm disagreeing with you because the logical consequences of the terms you use are different than what you think they are. Not because of some idealogical difference. At least that's what I think. Seems like you and I have this problem fairly often.

I did that already. It has nothing to do with having a hard time accepting reality. Reality is subjective. Ti-doms appreciate this better than most. Fe-doms don't have to. They say "there is one reality, mine, if you don't think/behave like I do, and value the things that I value, there is something wrong with you".

No. This is not a true representation of all xxFJ types. This is just a strawman.

You think Fe users don't introspect? Don't question themselves? Don't use Thinking? That's so closed-minded. Especially since you don't blame the Ti users for their deficiency.

Or are you saying that a Ti-deficiency is just "worse" than an Fe deficiency? That would be ironic...

Recognising that society is (almost inevitably) constructed around a Fe-based reality, which is pretty much directly opposed to how one operates as a Ti-dom, doesn't make one irrational. It's just a fact.

Fe-based reality? Ha.

Whenever ANYONE makes a value judgment about external reality, they are using Fe. So of course the framework of "value judgments in external reality" is Fe-oriented. That doesn't even mean anything. It's definitional.

What it sounds like you actually mean is that society as a whole doesn't have much patience for those that don't have an intuition for social norms and gesture, etc. People with that intuition are not necessarily Fe-dominants, though. That's really an introversion/extroversion thing. Seriously, have you ever watched how easy it is for an ESTP to navigate social reality? You are mischaracterizing the problem.

But, accounting for that, I think I agree with the thing you are trying to communicate.

I think most Ts do learn to do this. I also think it pisses them off and creates inner tension since it is not natural for them. My argument is this means that one half of the population has to constantly capitulate to the feelings of the other. What's fair about that? Just saying "it's reality" means less than nothing. That it is reality is implicit in my criticism. Why would I critique fantasy worlds?

Half the population? Ha. That's the problem with your argument.

The actual truth is that most people don't have as much problem navigating the social environment as INTPs. It's not like these so-called "socially deficient" people make up HALF of the population... LOL. If they actually did, they'd also have half the say of what the population thinks! And you sure wouldn't be complaining this way if that were the case.

Yes, there is a group of people that have less natural intuition for social interaction than others. Just call them the bottom 10 percentile or something. I agree, it sucks for those people. And I agree, I wish it didn't have to be so hard for them. And I agree, the people that give them an extra hard time as if they didn't already have it bad enough are huge assholes.

But this is not the fault of Fe. That's just silly.

Not at all. You are completely missing the point.
I'm not suggesting changing anything. I'm offering a way of understanding some types of psychopathology. I'm suggesting that abnormal (in the sense of departing from the norm) is not the same as dysfunctional. Isn't this the whole premise of MBTI, after all? I'm suggesting that real dysfunction is brought about by insisting that they are the same. That this prejudice is implicit and insidious and toxic. That it is at least as legitimate to value truth over lies as to value lies over truth. (And let's not get into the subjective nature of "truth". All of us know when we are lying/faking.).

Of course abnormal is not necessarily dysfunctional.

(It's also interesting how you label it abnormal here and say 50% elsewhere.)

Unfortunately, though, the people with less social intuition just have it harder socially. I mean, duuuhhhh. And I do feel bad for them. A lot of people give them a harder time than they deserve, because they assume its something they have conscious control over.

Most of the Fe-doms I know are actually quite fascinated by the Ti-perspective. If they're mature enough, they've learned that part of navigating a social environment is factoring in the fact that people have different conversational approaches!

If Ti users can learn to cater their communication to those around them, Fe users can learn to accept viewpoints besides their own. Stop trying to make it so unequal.

For Ti, it is, you don't understand Ti if you don't understand this. No "rule" is given legitimacy simply because it exists. It must make sense, or else it is either dismissed (the preferred option) or endured (the psychologically harmful one,imo).

Blah blah blah....such closed-mindedness. In my opinion, a "good" Ti user can see why it makes sense to factor in social norms to decision-making. What's up with the implicit claim that it doesn't make sense to care about social values? It completely makes sense. There's nothing hard to grasp about it. If you have a hard time grasping it, I'd say there's something ILLOGICAL about you, not logical.

Freakin' ridiculous!

 

[Jaguar]

Well yours certainly does. You seem to be incapable of having a conversation that doesn't descend into personal insults and baiting. It's pathetic. Isn't it about time you grew up?

The problem here is you either spit out nothing but negativity, or accuse people of insulting you. Here is what I posted, that you called an "insult":

That's when you know you've struck gold: the one-sided personality isn't blinking in your face like a neon light.

Those words of mine are basically the life lesson that Jung teaches and it's accomplished via the transcendent function which bridges the concious and the unconscious. Funny, you took it as an "insult" and yet another member got the lesson right away in a PM conversation with me. The following quotes illustrate the point about transcending opposites or "one-sided" personalities.

"But if you go through the process of individuation, learning to deal with the opposites, then your type may change, or your preferences may lessen or even disappear."

"If, however, as a result of the stability of the ego, neither side succeeds [then the transcendent function becomes] superior to both... In this way it becomes a new content that governs the whole attitude, putting an end to the division and forcing the energy of opposites into a common channel."

What you fail to realize is that what you are encouraging is basically a state of imbalance. Fe, can work in a compensatory manner with Ti. If you don't want to realize that, it's your own loss.

Jung's entire career was not devoted to type, it was devoted to the unconscious, and the union of "opposites." Since you didn't get it the first time, I'll say it again. That's when you know you've struck gold: the one-sided personality isn't blinking in your face like a neon light. If Jung were alive, he'd agree with it. Do yourself a favor and get Jeffrey C. Miller's book: The Transcendent Function. On second thought, you won't read it. Personal growth doesn't seem to appeal to you, but it may appeal to other forum members.

Don't waste my time accusing me of insulting you, again. It's nothing but a cheap tactic used on certain members when they disagree with your viewpoint. Get over it.

 

[Ginkgo]

Thank you for clarifying that, Jaguar.

 

[Salomé]

Here is what I posted, that you called an "insult":

Interesting that you edited your quote to exclude all the provocation and then try to justify yourself with that yawn-inducing obnoxious pomposity, descending into yet more abuse. Is Jaguar a 'fraidy cat? You can't help poking people with a stick, can you? Even after your recent ban. I feel sorry for you. The bizarre thing is, you're deluded enough to believe that you actually have some moral authority to attack people in the malicious and unprovoked way that you do. If you were even an interesting / funny troll, I might want to play with you, but you're predictable and boring. *sigh* 1/10

Not necessarily. All tests force you to do a dimensionality reduction on your absurdly-high-dimensional psychological space. Forced answer (multiple choice) tests are by definition forcing you to throw away information about your psychology.

Those two people could easily have completely compatible social approaches, even if they might have a different internal to explain them.

Are you just trying to discredit MBTI ? Because that's a different thread. I don't want to argue fundamentals with you. I wouldn't be on this site if I didn't think the system had some merit.

Really? So you think Fe users somehow have less conflict than Ti users? (they seem to bump up against disagreement even MORE often than Ti users imo) You think everyone who uses Fe agrees on some specific set of morals? Feeling is SUBJECTIVE. Who are you to say that making judgments in a subjective framework is intolerant?
You are using as much Fe as Ti right now. Your complaint about this "intolerance" is, by definition, Feeling. It is a value judgment (the way things SHOULD be for people) and not a truth judgment (plain old descriptions of reality).

Um. Where did I say anything about intolerance / conflict? You're sooo not getting it. I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or what but engaging you is often hard work with no reward.

This is where I call BS. You give them no room to have any skill a Ti user doesn't have. You clearly assume Ti users are better at logical reasoning than Fe users, but you give the Fe users no counter-skill?

I don't think I've mentioned skills anywhere. Try again.

Sounds to me you just think Ti users are better (which, by the way is a value judgment).

Wrong again. I'm not making any value judgements, but you're making a lot, to support your assumptions. (You keep changing your type, I still think INFJ fits best, which would explain why you can't seem to grasp an argument that would be transparent to an NTP (whether they agree or not).

I really just think your understanding of the functions is flawed, so when you're throwing these terms around you actually mean something other than the actual definitions. I suspect we would probably agree if you made this exact same argument in longhand (full explanations instead of the verbal shortcuts of the functions).

That makes no sense. Either you agree or you disagree. You can't "suspect you'd agree if I made a longer argument". Maybe my understanding is flawed, maybe yours is. Actually the definitions of the functions are moot. Ti/Fe are illustratory only. I'm (internally) abstracting from that (you would too, if you were Ti-dom). It's the opposition that's important. That's the bit you're not grasping/accepting. Which is ok, but the only valid challenge to my argument is that they are not opposed. If you can prove that, then the rest all falls away.

You think Fe users don't introspect? Don't question themselves? Don't use Thinking? That's so closed-minded. Especially since you don't blame the Ti users for their deficiency.

No, no, no; therefore irrelevant.

Or are you saying that a Ti-deficiency is just "worse" than an Fe deficiency? That would be ironic...

No again. You can't suspend these value judgements that you keep projecting onto me, can you? It's funny/frustrating.

What it sounds like you actually mean is that society as a whole doesn't have much patience for those that don't have an intuition for social norms and gesture, etc. People with that intuition are not necessarily Fe-dominants, though. That's really an introversion/extroversion thing. Seriously, have you ever watched how easy it is for an ESTP to navigate social reality? You are mischaracterizing the problem.

That's not really what I'm talking about. And I don't think what you are talking about is strictly I/E, although that prejudice is there, as I already mentioned. I think ENTPs can struggle as much/maybe more than INTPs with that stuff, because of their higher need for social approval.

Half the population? Ha. That's the problem with your argument.

I kind of knew you were going to fail to pick up on the fact that YOU switched to talking to talking about T preference (and not specifically Ti-preference). I switched with you (since valuing objectivity is common to Ts) and ~half* represents a stronger case for the point that I was making - which was tangential to my main point, though not irrelevant.

(*Ts are roughly half the population - depending on what stats you use.)

And I agree, I wish it didn't have to be so hard for them. And I agree, the people that give them an extra hard time as if they didn't already have it bad enough are huge assholes.

You're Fe-ing all over the thread. I'm not looking for / offering sympathy. I'm talking about cause/effect. Jeez, this is difficult.

(It's also interesting how you label it abnormal here and say 50% elsewhere.)

Again, your failure to read/comprehend, not my inconsistency.

Unfortunately, though, the people with less social intuition just have it harder socially. I mean, duuuhhhh. And I do feel bad for them. A lot of people give them a harder time than they deserve, because they assume its something they have conscious control over.

Wow. Not interested, seriously.

In my opinion, a "good" Ti user can see why it makes sense to factor in social norms to decision-making. What's up with the implicit claim that it doesn't make sense to care about social values? It completely makes sense. There's nothing hard to grasp about it. If you have a hard time grasping it, I'd say there's something ILLOGICAL about you, not logical.

I don't have a hard time grasping it, I made no such "implicit claim". I've reiterated over and over that is not what I'm talking about. No need to be rude just because you don't understand and can't engage the problem intellectually rather than personally. But please, spare me another long-winded exercise in futility.

 

[Poki]

I prefer silence over lieing

edit: Anyway, Ti is about finding whats internally true. So in this case whats internally true for Fe is the sticking with the goal. This may mean not being true to self or they may be allowed to be true to self. Depends on what the goal is and why. Ti is more about finding what people are true to internally, its about finding subjective "truths".