[NF] ENFJ-INFP Friendship

[angell_m]

TIRES SQUEELING...CRASH! Yeah, I've hit aforementioned wall with my INFP guy.

It's so odd to me. We really hit it off and seemed to connect on a deep level. But lately it seems like we are further apart 4 months into it than we were 2 weeks in

I have backed off (as a matter-of-fact I suggested we keep things casual rather than do the BF-GF thing) becuase I felt like I was banging my head against the wall getting him to open up or even just spend time together doing nothing (he thinks I'll be bored unless he is engaging me somehow, so not true). There are some other issues as well, but we won't get into all of that as they aren't related to the "wall".

Just today he had his job review and I gather that it didn't go so well from his short responses. He shut down the convo and is out getting hammered with his buddies now. I know he wants to talk about it, but he just won't at least not with me. I'M GOOD AT LISTENING DAMN IT! Seems like everyone talks to me good or bad except him

All that aside, I still think there is something very special there. I think this relationship just might take longer to perculate than I am used to. I'm going to keep giving it the old college try and see if we can't bust down this wall becuase I think there may be greatness on the other side

I can relate to your boyfriend somewhat I suppose.

This list is how I am, not how he is. So take it with a pinch of salt.

(1) Backing off means you're not interested, in doubt, or bored of me, causing a reason to fear that you'll leave. I wouldn't tell you about this because it is the same as not trusting you and I feel as if not trusting you is immoral/not appropriate behaviour in a relationship. My mother nailed "relationship is all about trust" into my head, and my values are to be honest at all times. So I've created my own little loophole when it comes to lying, that not saying what I feel is not the same as lying. If you were to ask "do you not trust me?" then you would provoke me to lie about it, which makes me feel bad about lying to you. I mean, this is not the same as being unfaithful; if a girl ever kissed me on the lips while I was in a relationship, I would have to call my girlfriend up on the phone immediately and go "Honey! This girl just jumped me, I'm coming home!" At least that's how honest I am about it because I would be TERRIFIED that it would come back and bite me in the ass later.

(2) If you opened up first, then sure, I would somewhat be able to open up, but I would still hold my true feelings inside because they feel as if too intense. It is ultimately confusing. I know deep inside that I "feel" way too much, but I'm reluctant to talk about it because my feelings seems to be... inappropriate. I do think way too much about myself, in a negative way, but in order for me to do so I have to practice "Everyone has experienced something dramatic in their lifes, I'm not special," and that's why I will never share the true power of my feelings. I can let a little bit out, but not its true form. For instance, feeling love; I feel love very, very intensely-- too intensely, and too prematurely in fact. I would also not want to talk about it because I don't want to seem like I'm whining about it, and if I first start to talk about it, I'll whine. Yap yap yap, continuesly. So I prefer not to say anything. Back in the days it could make me explode at one point (if you two cannot communicate with eachother well, then you'll have to watch out for that).

(3) I feel worthless if rejected (I feel like a loser, as if there is no reason to continue or move on. I will rather ignore it, and let it be). I don't like peptalks (I don't know why. The "you'll do better next time! *smile and pat on the back*," annoys me). I won't talk about it (because there's nothing to talk about). I want to feel loved and appreciated (I won't say it, because it seems girly, and I'm a "manly man").

(4) If I want space, I will find myself an activity and go at it. And I would respond questions with "in a while," or "later" quite often.

(5) Say stuff like "you know it's ok if," and "because it's only natural" and "I do too" when you want to fish something out of me. (I think)

And all of this varies with me of course. I just happened to grab this from the top of my head. Didn't polish it. Number four and five are just.. I don't know about them at all.

If he can relate to what I said above, then sure, you two need to talk more; communicate in the right sort of way.

 

[neptunesnet]

(1) Backing off means you're not interested, in doubt, or bored of me, causing a reason to fear that you'll leave. I wouldn't tell you about this because it is the same as not trusting you and I feel as if not trusting you is immoral/not appropriate behaviour in a relationship. My mother nailed "relationship is all about trust" into my head, and my values are to be honest at all times. So I've created my own little loophole when it comes to lying, that not saying what I feel is not the same as lying. If you were to ask "do you not trust me?" then you would provoke me to lie about it, which makes me feel bad about lying to you. I mean, this is not the same as being unfaithful; if a girl ever kissed me on the lips while I was in a relationship, I would have to call my girlfriend up on the phone immediately and go "Honey! This girl just jumped me, I'm coming home!" At least that's how honest I am about it because I would be TERRIFIED that it would come back and bite me in the ass later.

Perhaps I'm just a very difficult INFP (which is something I wouldn't at all doubt), but I don't see anything wrong with being cautious in the very beginning of a relationship. I don't trust people I don't know. Bottom line. When I'm dating someone, I'm feeling him out, getting to know him, making sure through his actions & behavior he's someone I can rely & depend on in the future, but at the moment I don't know him. At this stage, nothing will surprise me & I'm prepared for the worst, most vile person to eventually surface over time while at the same time hoping for the very best from him. I want him to be as wonderful as he seems to be. I want to trust him. He just needs to give me a reason to.

Now, I do realize I'll never be able to fully know a person and his motives & intentions, but I'd like to get pretty close.

(2) If you opened up first, then sure, I would somewhat be able to open up, but I would still hold my true feelings inside because they feel as if too intense. It is ultimately confusing. I know deep inside that I "feel" way too much, but I'm reluctant to talk about it because my feelings seems to be... inappropriate. I do think way too much about myself, in a negative way, but in order for me to do so I have to practice "Everyone has experienced something dramatic in their lifes, I'm not special," and that's why I will never share the true power of my feelings. I can let a little bit out, but not its true form. For instance, feeling love; I feel love very, very intensely-- too intensely, and too prematurely in fact. I would also not want to talk about it because I don't want to seem like I'm whining about it, and if I first start to talk about it, I'll whine. Yap yap yap, continuesly. So I prefer not to say anything. Back in the days it could make me explode at one point (if you two cannot communicate with eachother well, then you'll have to watch out for that).

(3) I feel worthless if rejected (I feel like a loser, as if there is no reason to continue or move on. I will rather ignore it, and let it be). I don't like peptalks (I don't know why. The "you'll do better next time! *smile and pat on the back*," annoys me). I won't talk about it (because there's nothing to talk about). I want to feel loved and appreciated (I won't say it, because it seems girly, and I'm a "manly man").

I can definitely relate to much of this, esp (2).

(4) If I want space, I will find myself an activity and go at it. And I would respond questions with "in a while," or "later" quite often.

(5) Say stuff like "you know it's ok if," and "because it's only natural" and "I do too" when you want to fish something out of me. (I think)

 

[JoSunshine]

Mess up #1 was dialing it back from SO to friends. I don't know about other people, but I take that very seriously and it does put you in a circle around that is emotionally further away. Past that I even tried to keep up communications with the ENFJ I was dating, who also said we should back it off, only to be stonewalled more and more till she moved away and then had the gall to call me cold to her friends.

I would say this would be exactly what would happen to us except for my stellar communication skills

Seriously though...I was really scared of alienating him altogether by backing up however, I was going nuts and things felt very push-pull (me pushing him and him pulling away). I felt like I had to roll things back for my sanity. I was very communicative with him and explained that I don't feel any different about him and that I am hopeful for and desire a long-term, stable relationship with him and that I didn't want to see him less, talk to him less or get to know him less. I explained that I just seem to move faster and want more sooner than he is comfy with so I was going to pare back my expectations (for now). It took several conversations and a lot of reassurance from me that I'm not going anywhere, just slowing my pace to be more in line with something he can keep up with. I feel pretty sure that he knows how much I care about him...mostly becuase he tells me that he's not used to someone caring so much about him

I can relate to your boyfriend somewhat I suppose.

This list is how I am, not how he is. So take it with a pinch of salt.

(1) Backing off means you're not interested, in doubt, or bored of me, causing a reason to fear that you'll leave. I wouldn't tell you about this because it is the same as not trusting you and I feel as if not trusting you is immoral/not appropriate behaviour in a relationship. My mother nailed "relationship is all about trust" into my head, and my values are to be honest at all times. So I've created my own little loophole when it comes to lying, that not saying what I feel is not the same as lying. If you were to ask "do you not trust me?" then you would provoke me to lie about it, which makes me feel bad about lying to you. I mean, this is not the same as being unfaithful; if a girl ever kissed me on the lips while I was in a relationship, I would have to call my girlfriend up on the phone immediately and go "Honey! This girl just jumped me, I'm coming home!" At least that's how honest I am about it because I would be TERRIFIED that it would come back and bite me in the ass later.

I would say that this would be similar to him. The thing is, I'm scared too. I feel like he is not interested, in doubt, or bored of me, causing a reason to fear that he'll leave becuase I have such difficultly getting him to engage to the extent that I desire. However I think this is not the case. I tell him this so he knows that I am just as afraid as he is...I think this helps, but it's hard to say.

(2) If you opened up first, then sure, I would somewhat be able to open up, but I would still hold my true feelings inside because they feel as if too intense. It is ultimately confusing. I know deep inside that I "feel" way too much, but I'm reluctant to talk about it because my feelings seems to be... inappropriate. I do think way too much about myself, in a negative way, but in order for me to do so I have to practice "Everyone has experienced something dramatic in their lifes, I'm not special," and that's why I will never share the true power of my feelings. I can let a little bit out, but not its true form. For instance, feeling love; I feel love very, very intensely-- too intensely, and too prematurely in fact. I would also not want to talk about it because I don't want to seem like I'm whining about it, and if I first start to talk about it, I'll whine. Yap yap yap, continuesly. So I prefer not to say anything. Back in the days it could make me explode at one point (if you two cannot communicate with eachother well, then you'll have to watch out for that).

Yes again...he told me he feels silly talking about his feelings becuase he feels dramatic, but I know that he feels things deeply and is very sensitive. I try to reassure him that I don't think he is silly. I could probably do a better job of letting him in on the drama that goes on in my head so that he will feel better about opening up to me, but I'm used to opening up to people AFTER they open up to me...I'm probably going to need to take the lead on this one even though it's every bit as scary for me as it is for him. And no doubt our communication needs work. Maybe this is would be a good start?

(3) I feel worthless if rejected (I feel like a loser, as if there is no reason to continue or move on. I will rather ignore it, and let it be). I don't like peptalks (I don't know why. The "you'll do better next time! *smile and pat on the back*," annoys me). I won't talk about it (because there's nothing to talk about). I want to feel loved and appreciated (I won't say it, because it seems girly, and I'm a "manly man").

I have no idea how to handle any of this! What is a woman to do?

(5) Say stuff like "you know it's ok if," and "because it's only natural" and "I do too" when you want to fish something out of me. (I think)[/I][/SIZE]

I do do this quite a bit although sometimes it makes me a bit uncomfortable becuase I have to guess at what is bothering him and I'm never quite sure if I am getting it right. It would be so much easier if I could ask "what's bothering you?" and get a straight answer, but I'm pretty sure that's wishful thinking

 

[angell_m]

It is sometimes easier - and better - to communicate through art. Otherwise
we wouldn't have had art today; paintings, music, sculptures, books, and
so forth. A song can sometimes explain so much more than a paragaph ever
would, and a paragraph can sometimes explain so much more than an oral
conversation ever would. I want to suggest that you show your boyfriend our
written conversation, not keep it in your head, to yourself; to wonder; to
puzzle; to figure out. It is trivial, and you will most likely not be able to figure
it out on your own. It will most likely break you before you ever get a chance
to fix it if you do.

I'm still young however, mid twenties. I've had few relationships in my short
time on this planet. So I might not be the best one to exert my confidence on
this matter. But this is as close to real as it gets, to me anyway.

Hope you two get to work it out somehow.

 

[runvardh]

Seriously though...I was really scared of alienating him altogether by backing up however, I was going nuts and things felt very push-pull (me pushing him and him pulling away). I felt like I had to roll things back for my sanity. I was very communicative with him and explained that I don't feel any different about him and that I am hopeful for and desire a long-term, stable relationship with him and that I didn't want to see him less, talk to him less or get to know him less. I explained that I just seem to move faster and want more sooner than he is comfy with so I was going to pare back my expectations (for now). It took several conversations and a lot of reassurance from me that I'm not going anywhere, just slowing my pace to be more in line with something he can keep up with. I feel pretty sure that he knows how much I care about him...mostly becuase he tells me that he's not used to someone caring so much about him

Wow, if he hasn't fully detached from you he will soon. Want to go faster than he does? Yeah, this won't go anywhere.

 

[JoSunshine]

Wow, if he hasn't fully detached from you he will soon. Want to go faster than he does? Yeah, this won't go anywhere.

So positive! What lead you to that conclusion?

 

[runvardh]

So positive! What lead you to that conclusion?

You told him you were backing off because it looked like you wanted to go faster than he did. That's invalidation right there and with that it doesn't surprise me that he won't divulge his hurts and pains.

 

[JoSunshine]

I'm still not really following your logic

 

[digesthisickness]

I can relate to your boyfriend somewhat I suppose.

This list is how I am, not how he is. So take it with a pinch of salt.

(1) Backing off means you're not interested, in doubt, or bored of me, causing a reason to fear that you'll leave. I wouldn't tell you about this because it is the same as not trusting you and I feel as if not trusting you is immoral/not appropriate behaviour in a relationship. My mother nailed "relationship is all about trust" into my head, and my values are to be honest at all times. So I've created my own little loophole when it comes to lying, that not saying what I feel is not the same as lying. If you were to ask "do you not trust me?" then you would provoke me to lie about it, which makes me feel bad about lying to you. I mean, this is not the same as being unfaithful; if a girl ever kissed me on the lips while I was in a relationship, I would have to call my girlfriend up on the phone immediately and go "Honey! This girl just jumped me, I'm coming home!" At least that's how honest I am about it because I would be TERRIFIED that it would come back and bite me in the ass later.

(2) If you opened up first, then sure, I would somewhat be able to open up, but I would still hold my true feelings inside because they feel as if too intense. It is ultimately confusing. I know deep inside that I "feel" way too much, but I'm reluctant to talk about it because my feelings seems to be... inappropriate. I do think way too much about myself, in a negative way, but in order for me to do so I have to practice "Everyone has experienced something dramatic in their lifes, I'm not special," and that's why I will never share the true power of my feelings. I can let a little bit out, but not its true form. For instance, feeling love; I feel love very, very intensely-- too intensely, and too prematurely in fact. I would also not want to talk about it because I don't want to seem like I'm whining about it, and if I first start to talk about it, I'll whine. Yap yap yap, continuesly. So I prefer not to say anything. Back in the days it could make me explode at one point (if you two cannot communicate with eachother well, then you'll have to watch out for that).

(3) I feel worthless if rejected (I feel like a loser, as if there is no reason to continue or move on. I will rather ignore it, and let it be). I don't like peptalks (I don't know why. The "you'll do better next time! *smile and pat on the back*," annoys me). I won't talk about it (because there's nothing to talk about). I want to feel loved and appreciated (I won't say it, because it seems girly, and I'm a "manly man").

(4) If I want space, I will find myself an activity and go at it. And I would respond questions with "in a while," or "later" quite often.

(5) Say stuff like "you know it's ok if," and "because it's only natural" and "I do too" when you want to fish something out of me. (I think)

And all of this varies with me of course. I just happened to grab this from the top of my head. Didn't polish it. Number four and five are just.. I don't know about them at all.

If he can relate to what I said above, then sure, you two need to talk more; communicate in the right sort of way.

this entire post is win.

 

[runvardh]

I'm still not really following your logic

Because the logic is in fundamentals that either aren't covered by Fe or your experience.

 

[Neutralpov]

+1

becuase I felt like I was banging my head against the wall getting him to open up or even just spend time together doing nothing

This above is exactly what drove me nuts with 2 INFP's I know. I want to be open with them because FINALLY someone who is deep and non-judgmental but it will be exposing vulnerability to someone who won't reciprocate. The one time I did, BAD decision. I got this one-sided feeling and wait patiently for INFP to open as well. Never happened more than one single incident so that ends that game.

Also why is it so hurtful to be called cold?

 

[Udog]

This above is exactly what drove me nuts with 2 INFP's I know. I want to be open with them because FINALLY someone who is deep and non-judgmental but it will be exposing vulnerability to someone who won't reciprocate. The one time I did, BAD decision. I got this one-sided feeling and wait patiently for INFP to open as well. Never happened more than one single incident so that ends that game.

That sucks. Funny how one bad incident can change how we naturally wish to do things. (I'm the same way, though, so please consider that simply an observation and nothing more.)

Did you show an interest in having the INFP open up, though? If someone opens up to me, I can sometimes be slow to reciprocate. I feel like I'm hijacking their spotlight. A bit of gentle prodding can help make it a two-way street.

Also why is it so hurtful to be called cold?

Some INFPs take pride in being called cold. Not me, though. For me, if I'm called cold when I really do care, I feel like I failed to communicate properly despite what I thought was my best effort. It creates a lot of "What did I do wrong / how was this my fault?" type questions...

 

[Neutralpov]

I see what you mean about giving your best attempt and it not working? What have you done in that case?

My weakness as ENFJ is generalizations after I have a bad experience (shadow Ti). But my sister is an INFP and she is phlegmatic but gentle. So I see how she isn't "cold" by her approach and softness, but sorry guys I got to say I do see the INFP breed as somewhat cold from a distance (meaning on the surface appearance) not internally.

Also I think I have developed a distaste for introverts who hold feelings inside. It is a barrier to friendship that I have decided a hard line on. I feel witheld from and have deliberately chose better friends since moving on from my best friend INFP a little under a year ago. I am much happier!

It is hard to get to my inner circle, so when you do if you can't be open there is no excuse. Just my experiences though.

 

[Udog]

I see what you mean about giving your best attempt and it not working? What have you done in that case?

Mainly, learn from it. Figure out the point where I should have been more expressive, and attempt to not make the mistake again.

My weakness as ENFJ is generalizations after I have a bad experience (shadow Ti). But my sister is an INFP and she is phlegmatic but gentle. So I see how she isn't "cold" by her approach and softness, but sorry guys I got to say I do see the INFP breed as somewhat cold from a distance (meaning on the surface appearance) not internally.

We are a strange breed - we almost share the INTP ability to detach with the ENFP need for deep connection. Your "cold from a distance" assessment is probably as valid a generalization as you're going to get!

Also I think I have developed a distaste for introverts who hold feelings inside. It is a barrier to friendship that I have decided a hard line on. I feel witheld from and have deliberately chose better friends since moving on from my best friend INFP a little under a year ago. I am much happier!

It is hard to get to my inner circle, so when you do if you can't be open there is no excuse. Just my experiences though.

And that's fair enough.

Do you differentiate between someone that simply is slow to gain emotional momentum VS someone who deliberately avoids sharing feelings VS someone who tries but is a bit awkward in the expression of feelings?

 

[Neutralpov]

hmmmm...

And that's fair enough.

Do you differentiate between someone that simply is slow to gain emotional momentum VS someone who deliberately avoids sharing feelings VS someone who tries but is a bit awkward in the expression of feelings?

I like your thoughts. I think I need to be open in the future about not-prejudging. Darn it for being helpful.

I like your distinction in the trying vs. deliberate...Yes and that was the sad part with said ex-bff INFP. She is the one from this thread that I started about the situation: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/20430-enfj-s-emotional-needs.html

I think once I was told, "I am private" when she didn't want to share and that made me noooooottt happy. The other time she did break down in front of me and let herself be upset which I knew was very rare.

The problem was EFFORT on my side and the frequency or initiation of that. What killed it was 3 months of no openness, and not in any other way than she was busy or we were in a group, or had coffee once in a 3 week period. But it was too little too late by the 2nd month I was mentally like, "you are on probation." The fact is I feel exposed and I have come to the terms that I am EJ and like EJ that I expect the bff to initiate their openness and I saw a posting on this thread that IP are not that way. I guess Pygmalion project?

Sad, because I never thought it meant crap to her that I phased out and she would text like once in a month to me and one of her close friends said losing my friendship was "incredibly hurtful." She never said anything to me....so that sucks cause I was prettttty sad when I finally let it slide.

Also - my mistakes, boundaries, I initiate everything in our social group, I didn't let things fall naturally without me being the social planner, and I think I just had a hard time not saying NO until it was a month or so more of thinking something.

Now I am realizing if I don't plan social activities I see how frequently other people can see me (for me and/or as a group). Helps a lot for us!

 

[Udog]

I like your thoughts. I think I need to be open in the future about not-prejudging. Darn it for being helpful.

I like your distinction in the trying vs. deliberate...Yes and that was the sad part with said ex-bff INFP. She is the one from this thread that I started about the situation: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/nf-idyllic/20430-enfj-s-emotional-needs.html

That was a pretty interesting thread, and I'm sorry that you lost a close friend. Those always hurt - I'm still not fully recovered from having to cut off an INTJ and INFJ from my life a couple of years ago. Combined they represented over 30 years of friendship.

Didn't the INFP friend turn out to very possibly be INTP, though?

I think once I was told, "I am private" when she didn't want to share and that made me noooooottt happy. The other time she did break down in front of me and let herself be upset which I knew was very rare.

The problem was EFFORT on my side and the frequency or initiation of that. What killed it was 3 months of no openness, and not in any other way than she was busy or we were in a group, or had coffee once in a 3 week period. But it was too little too late by the 2nd month I was mentally like, "you are on probation." The fact is I feel exposed and I have come to the terms that I am EJ and like EJ that I expect the bff to initiate their openness and I saw a posting on this thread that IP are not that way. I guess Pygmalion project?

Sad, because I never thought it meant crap to her that I phased out and she would text like once in a month to me and one of her close friends said losing my friendship was "incredibly hurtful." She never said anything to me....so that sucks cause I was prettttty sad when I finally let it slide.

Also - my mistakes, boundaries, I initiate everything in our social group, I didn't let things fall naturally without me being the social planner, and I think I just had a hard time not saying NO until it was a month or so more of thinking something.

Now I am realizing if I don't plan social activities I see how frequently other people can see me (for me and/or as a group). Helps a lot for us!

If your friend couldn't give you what you needed to feel appreciated and secure for all the effort you gave her, then it's understandable that you couldn't be her friend. There is no shame in having needs, even when it is sad when people you care for can't fulfill them.

Here's my take on what happened. INFPs struggle to learn how to be eloquently expressive in almost the same way that ENFJs struggle to gracefully face their inner emotional demons. So if you consider how difficult it is to deal with "the storm within", you will get a grasp of how awkward and even painful it is for some INFPs to learn how to be expressively warm on demand.

So sometimes, it's not just about lack of effort or desire. For some of us, this demon goes deep.

The other thing is that INFPs can often become creatures of habit. While I support your strategy of not initiating social events to see who will proactively seek you out, you will get a better result if you let INFPs know ahead of time. Otherwise, and I don't claim this makes sense, we may just as likely obsess about why you aren't arranging weekly meetings anymore than we will call you up and actually ask.

Finally, it was only two years ago that I finally realized that INFJs do a very poor job of reading what I don't express. (I don't know if ENFJs have better luck.) I always figured I was an open book to my INFJ friends, so it was quite the shock to realize that I not only wasn't, but that they found my inner depths completely unreadable.

It was only much later I realized that some people need emotions to be expressed for them to be tangible. I can appreciate this viewpoint now, but in the past it was simply something I never considered.

 

[Scott N Denver]

I'm still not really following your logic

its not about logic, its about how he feels. and, almost certainly, he feels like you are basically saying "this is too slow for me" or "I cant/dont/whatever accept your way of doing this" or something else to the general effect of "your way is inadequate for my needs"

 

[Scott N Denver]

This above is exactly what drove me nuts with 2 INFP's I know. I want to be open with them because FINALLY someone who is deep and non-judgmental but it will be exposing vulnerability to someone who won't reciprocate. The one time I did, BAD decision. I got this one-sided feeling and wait patiently for INFP to open as well. Never happened more than one single incident so that ends that game.

Also why is it so hurtful to be called cold?

I find this funny because I've been int he opposite situation, the INFP was open and the ENFJ wasn't....

 

[Glycerine]

Emotional hang ups is probably the main problem. Scott, I will admit I open up to people, then pull back, and shut people out of my life. I have done that to almost every INFP I have gotten to know and most people....

 

[Neutralpov]

+1

Emotional hang ups is probably the main problem. Scott, I will admit I open up to people, then pull back, and shut people out of my life. I have done that to almost every INFP I have gotten to know and most people....

Thank you for being honest!