[ENFP] Common ENFP issues

[Fidelia]

Yep, PB, I would concur with Cze Cze's explanation!

You're also right about Fe rules changing from group to group. It's not about conventions, but about finding a way to make things work for as many people as possible within that specific setting. You could take the same group of people on a different day and some of those variables may change again. Therefore Fe is about adjusting and also trying to facilitate the best set of circumstances possible.

Re chores analogy: I guess it's not so much that we have to keep a check system all the time. However, I'll probably notice if someone has been trying extra hard to accommodate me, which will afford them extra rope sometime when they don't have that to give. I'm thinking maybe it has to do with Fe looking at the picture of the very long term whereas Fi evaluates it more on a time by time basis. Is that possible?

You are right PB that under normal circumstances, I would have probably adjusted to EW and either tried to state things solely in her terms or just abandoned the conversation. I was not the only INFJ who reacted that way though. It was pretty across the board. I felt though that if she was trying to understand how we thought, it would make sense for her to make some of the adjustments. Here, I am a visitor and while I feel welcome to be a part of the conversation, it is the equivalent of visiting someone else's home or organization. While I'm here, I do things as close as I can to what works for the ENFPs and try to better understand them. If we meet in some public place, then both of us try to do some accommodating/adjusting in style and perception.

Thanks Marm for your perspective. I think that would make sense!

EW - By the way, I will try what you suggest in terms of writing. I really envy that ability that you guys have!

 

[Fidelia]

I think an INFJ or ISFJ that I love and respect could probably convince me to change or do things differently more than any other types. There is something about the more subtle nudge of auxillary Fe, as opposed to the more obvious Fe dom...and not to mention, combined probably with a healthy dose of Ti...that makes me want to behave differently. They have a way of tapping into my need to want to please or care for others, and can point out my flaws in a more humble and less hurtful way than some other types. The right IxFJ can totally reign me in.

It has to be someone I love and respect though. Some random IxFJ passive-aggressively harping on me as a stranger or casual acquaintence isn't going to do much better than an ExFJ or ENTP would do....the only difference would be that I'd probably get into a confrontation with the ExFJ or ENTP, and just quietly roll my eyes or think thoughts in my head toward the IxFJ...something about them man, I don't want to fight with them, unless they're really bad in their ExTP shadow and actively trying to provoke me.

I know that ENTPs are by nature more likely to go for the confrontation, so it seems more likely to choose that path. I'm curious though as to why you wouldn't state your thoughts in the same way towards an IxFJ. If you were in a relationship with one, would that be true as well. Would that ever become a problem in a close friendship with one, or would you be detached enough from the annoyance that it wouldn't pose long term problems?

 

[Thalassa]

I know that ENTPs are by nature more likely to go for the confrontation, so it seems more likely to choose that path. I'm curious though as to why you wouldn't state your thoughts in the same way towards an IxFJ. If you were in a relationship with one, would that be true as well. Would that ever become a problem in a close friendship with one, or would you be detached enough from the annoyance that it wouldn't pose long term problems?

Oh in a relationship or real friendship I would certainly state my thoughts honestly, and I'd probably be more likely though to do it mirroring the more calm, respectful manner of speaking that IxFJs often do. I wouldn't be detached from annoyance in that case, because I usually feel great warmth toward IxFJs, even on the interwebz. There are always going to be exceptions, of course.

What I meant was in the case of a stranger or very casual acquaintance I would probably feel they didn't know me well enough to try to "correct" or "counsel" me so I would disregard their opinion more quickly, as I often do with people who don't know me well. The only difference being is that I would be less likely to actively confront them about it, even if I felt I was being harped on, because of the "normal" IxFJ manner - meaning the way IxFJs generally are when not in a more overbearing or provocative ExTP shadow.

I think ENFPs mirror people. That's why we're so emotionally reactive, maybe. We mirror what we're hooking ourselves into in terms of the other person or people we're talking to, which may be a clue to why I personally react differently.

 

[PeaceBaby]

You're also right about Fe rules changing from group to group. It's not about conventions, but about finding a way to make things work for as many people as possible within that specific setting. You could take the same group of people on a different day and some of those variables may change again. Therefore Fe is about adjusting and also trying to facilitate the best set of circumstances possible.

Agreed; people are like the ingredients; change the people, change the ingredients, and therefore the "recipe", method and end-result can be altered as well. Fe then tries to ensure we still get "chocolate cake" as the result, and Fi is more likely to accept the ingredients at hand and make something else.

Does that analogy ring true?

Re chores analogy: I guess it's not so much that we have to keep a check system all the time. However, I'll probably notice if someone has been trying extra hard to accommodate me, which will afford them extra rope sometime when they don't have that to give. I'm thinking maybe it has to do with Fe looking at the picture of the very long term whereas Fi evaluates it more on a time by time basis. Is that possible?

Thanks for the explanation of the nuances. My Fi value would look like, "When you see someone working, it is inconsiderate and rude to not at least offer to help." So the onus is on me to pay attention. (And to offer, or help, as appropriate.) People who are considerate do get more bonus attention from me (or rewards let's say) but those who don't help at all aren't necessarily cut off at some point either.

Maybe Fi is more real-time focussed, I am not sure ... I know that each circumstance is unique, I don't string them together specifically ... but I remember them all, it's not like I don't pay attention to cumulative trends.

You are right PB that under normal circumstances, I would have probably adjusted to EW and either tried to state things solely in her terms or just abandoned the conversation. I was not the only INFJ who reacted that way though.

@bold: Oh yes, I realize that too. I meant more to emphasize that other INFJ's would have instantly felt wary of EW, but would not have had the benefit of your cumulative experience and perspective.

 

[BlueScreen]

Had never thought about it that way - as overload because it would spawn all sort of new ideas and connections. Obviously bullet points are the way to go and bolding. Aside from that any suggestions for communicating in a way that will hold an ENFP's attention?

Big picture and conceptual rather than details. I work way quicker going top down than bottom up. It also keeps me far more interested if my mind can be filling in blanks and running ahead of the conversation. With details it is often a case of look at one detail then the next, and becomes more of a struggle to remember all the information until I find a place for it. Concepts on the other hand leave room for play and seem more a discussion of understanding than knowledge. With this as a start, my mind happily goes about filling in the details or searching for them. And now that I know why I want to know, the details are absorbed easily.

At least in my case, an overview at the start of a wall of text could be enough to give more interest in the parts. Especially an overview of the content and the whys? For example if I start with the big picture, the context, and the motivation for asking, then details get absorbed quickly. The motivation is actually quite important. I'm not sure why. It might establish some kind of bond or context for interest to grow within, or help me feel my input will be of benefit to you. I find the same thing with teaching a large class vs 1on1 tutoring. I'm not as comfortable with just dispensing information as I am with interactively moving toward understanding.

 

[Fidelia]

Excellent! Now we're gettin' somewhere. Thanks for that.

 

[Thalassa]

Big picture and conceptual rather than details. I work way quicker going top down than bottom up. It also keeps me far more interested if my mind can be filling in blanks and running ahead of the conversation. With details it is often a case of look at one detail then the next, and becomes more of a struggle to remember all the information until I find a place for it. Concepts on the other hand leave room for play and seem more a discussion of understanding than knowledge. With this as a start, my mind happily goes about filling in the details or searching for them. And now that I know why I want to know, the details are absorbed easily.

At least in my case, an overview at the start of a wall of text could be enough to give more interest in the parts. Especially an overview of the content and the whys? For example if I start with the big picture, the context, and the motivation for asking, then details get absorbed quickly. The motivation is actually quite important. I'm not sure why. It might establish some kind of bond or context for interest to grow within, or help me feel my input will be of benefit to you. I find the same thing with teaching a large class vs 1on1 tutoring. I'm not as comfortable with just dispensing information as I am with interactively moving toward understanding.

The wall of text can be difficult for me as well...I'm an avid reader, but if I wanted to read a novel, I would. Often on places like Internet forums I want to read shorter posts, or at least things that are clear and concise that don't look like blah blah blah. Unfortunately I may be missing something valuable, because surely it's not really all blah blah blah (though sometimes it is...) and I will force myself to read closely if it's super important, but often times it's really draining to me to do so.

I've actually had an ISFJ tell me to go back and re-read words in chat before I respond to them, so that I don't overreact or make mistakes in my responses, and it's the same sort of thing.

Something else that occurred to me that seems forum specific is the tendency of ENFPs (and ENTPs, and sometimes INFPs) to derail and bounce around and play on the forums, and this really bugs some other people. I guess to some it looks like a sort of rude vandalism, or just annoyingly unfocused and ADHD, but at the same time, I feel myself getting annoyed with people who feel compelled to reign in innocent derailment that doesn't involve them. They don't see it that way, they see it as serving the highest good.

The funny thing is though is that ENFPs can engage in this same controlling - er, confrontational, in our case - behavior that is often attributed to Fe though...just in a different way...we'll see a particular individual doing something we believe strongly with Fi/Te NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED AND DEALT WITH and won't let it go (I think this is especially true of us with a great deal of Te, or with a strong ISTJ shadow), and Fe users will see it as unnecessary disruption of social harmony.

It's kind of ironic that ENFPs and Fe types can both seek to reign in other people for different reasons. Can I get other ENFPs to admit to doing this?

 

[Vamp]

Big picture and conceptual rather than details. I work way quicker going top down than bottom up. It also keeps me far more interested if my mind can be filling in blanks and running ahead of the conversation. With details it is often a case of look at one detail then the next, and becomes more of a struggle to remember all the information until I find a place for it. Concepts on the other hand leave room for play and seem more a discussion of understanding than knowledge. With this as a start, my mind happily goes about filling in the details or searching for them. And now that I know why I want to know, the details are absorbed easily.

At least in my case, an overview at the start of a wall of text could be enough to give more interest in the parts. Especially an overview of the content and the whys? For example if I start with the big picture, the context, and the motivation for asking, then details get absorbed quickly. The motivation is actually quite important. I'm not sure why. It might establish some kind of bond or context for interest to grow within, or help me feel my input will be of benefit to you. I find the same thing with teaching a large class vs 1on1 tutoring. I'm not as comfortable with just dispensing information as I am with interactively moving toward understanding.

To support this, the irony is that I often post novels on other message boards. To explain my opinion I need to thoroughly outline every concept and connect them all together. I do this because I notice people have a hard time following my stream of consciousness. So the wall of texts I come up with are trying to give that some structure and because it came from my mind it's "the big picture" and because of that I've been accused of generalizations.

The way I notice other people doing it seems like tedium to me, if I don't see a reflective particle of the big picture my mind short circuits. Like a small dinosaur.

DELAYED EDIT:
This might sound rude but to build on this:

Often on places like Internet forums I want to read shorter posts, or at least things that are clear and concise that don't look like blah blah blah. Unfortunately I may be missing something valuable, because surely it's not really all blah blah blah

Things that aren't written in the way I tend to think (big picture etc.,) LOOK like "blah blah blah" to me because the "value"/shiny stuff isn't the same kind of shiny stuff I like. Dumb metaphor, I know.. ..there was a better one in my head but I lost it.

The funny thing is though is that ENFPs can engage in this same controlling - er, confrontational, in our case - behavior that is often attributed to Fe though...just in a different way...we'll see a particular individual doing something we believe strongly with Fi/Te NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED AND DEALT WITH and won't let it go (I think this is especially true of us with a great deal of Te, or with a strong ISTJ shadow), and Fe users will see it as unnecessary disruption of social harmony.

It's kind of ironic that ENFPs and Fe types can both seek to reign in other people for different reasons. Can I get other ENFPs to admit to doing this?

Yeah, I definitely do this. Lately, it's when someone's logic seems illogical to me or inefficient or like a loss of potential. But socially inept and/or people who think to rigidly (to the point where they can't empathize). Lately, I've been loosing patience with people who aren't as socially "bold" as me (people with crushes and someone they're too nervous to talk to).
Which is weird to me because I'd always been the timid one in the past.
But I do become controlling in these and other situations.

Oh yeah and people who don't adapt as fast frustrate me.

 

[You]

Being taken seriously could be another problem.

 

[Thalassa]

Being taken seriously could be another problem.

Yeah and it can go both ways. People often don't take us seriously enough - even if we can prove ourselves to be quite "book smart" - because of our basic nature and ways of expressing ourselves.

On the other hand, I also find that some people take my game playing or theatrics TOO seriously, as well - it's like really? REALLY?

So it's a matter of not being taken seriously when I am being thoughtful, or being taken too seriously when I'm just fucking around.

 

[Vamp]

I try not to let not being taken seriously (as a girl, person, whatever else) bother me anymore. I'm working on using it to some sort of advantage (high interest in confident schemes). This is a tie-in to a post I made over in the Graveyard (I'm an attention whore).

 

[skylights]

The funny thing is though is that ENFPs can engage in this same controlling - er, confrontational, in our case - behavior that is often attributed to Fe though...just in a different way...we'll see a particular individual doing something we believe strongly with Fi/Te NEEDS TO BE CORRECTED AND DEALT WITH and won't let it go (I think this is especially true of us with a great deal of Te, or with a strong ISTJ shadow), and Fe users will see it as unnecessary disruption of social harmony.

It's kind of ironic that ENFPs and Fe types can both seek to reign in other people for different reasons. Can I get other ENFPs to admit to doing this?

no

actually i hate hate hate when people embarrass other people in public. that is just absolutely unacceptable to me (unless said embarrassed person is a complete jackass).

usually i'll just ignore it and vent it later but sometimes i feel like someone has crossed the line. and then... haha well. kaboom goes the enfp volcano

and then i usually regret it later on an Fe basis but not Fi. good thing Fi is stronger lol

 

[Vamp]

I don't intend to embarrass people but judging from how they react I do embarrass them. Oops. Then I feel bad cause I've been that person before. Unless they are someone who I just don't get on with at all.

But I can rarely summon that ability when someone is teasing me/being mean.

 

[Thalassa]

I wonder if that's why some people on this board have said they see Fe in me...I do tend to score pretty high on Fe on functions tests, sometimes equally or higher than Fi, even though I'm clearly Fi ... but I will do the public humiliation thing to someone who I think is just an unbelievable asshole...I'm most bothered by narcissists, people who say things like they are better than other people, that weak people deserve to die, or people who are just openly nasty and self-centered...occasionally though I will go for the throats of people who have complete logic fail, but that's rare, and generally only in subjects I'm strongly interested in. Which seems to point to Fi not Fe, because I would think that Fe would only do this in the case of things that are offensive to the entire group, not just my own personal interests. I am sometimes thinking of other people, though...sometimes I have thoughts like, "If I don't call this person on their bullshit, who will? They can't just go around thinking this is OK."

I think I just have serious Te and Si development for an ENFP, maybe because I'm older, I don't know.

 

[Fidelia]

I don't think Fe users would even do that about someone who is causing trouble to the entire group, unless they were quite sure that everyone else in the group concurred and supported that action. They would more likely withdraw or else talk privately.

 

[skylights]

I don't intend to embarrass people but judging from how they react I do embarrass them. Oops. Then I feel bad cause I've been that person before. Unless they are someone who I just don't get on with at all.

But I can rarely summon that ability when someone is teasing me/being mean.

ohh yeah i can understand how that would happen. that, i don't have a problem with, it's a genuine mistake.

my quintessential life example is a nitpicky overbearing ESxJ conference attendee who humiliated the newly-hired ISFJ conference coordinator as she was just beginning what would lead into a rather brilliant presentation - all over a very minor spelling mistake in one of several dozen quotes the ISFJ had just hand-copied onto the board. i just didn't understand what in hell made her think that pointing out this itty bitty flaw in front of 300 of her peers would accomplish. though perhaps i am mistaken, and she just didn't think, or maybe she thought it was helping restore things to the way they should be, so they could get on with the conference properly. and her Fe just failed.

haha anyway, seriously, isn't it unfortunate that we can't always pull off these reactions when they would be most useful/helpful? sometimes i really want to speak up and just don't have the balls, and then regret it terribly. or do speak up and go overboard and regret that. oh to find the happy medium

 

[Thalassa]

I don't think Fe users would even do that about someone who is causing trouble to the entire group, unless they were quite sure that everyone else in the group concurred and supported that action. They would more likely withdraw or else talk privately.

SimulatedWorld told me that people with Fe will do public humiliation, and it has been my experience that ExFJs are far more likely openly confront people than IxFJs. In fact, if I think of high school group peer pressure, I would think that immature Fe a la ExFJ (I'm not saying my Fe is mature, seeing as that it's not one of my main functions) actually calls people out, laughs at them etc. Adolescent or childish Fe actually seems quite nasty. Apparently narcissists and sociopaths can also use Fe to manipulate other people.

So....talking to people privately is mature and healthy Fe I think, or even how introverted Fe users do it. IxFJs don't want to "make a scene" which is why they are so proficient at getting me to agree with them, because it's less like "do as I say" and more like "do as I do."

I'm just speculating, of course. I readily assume that when someone violates one of my core Fi values I have no compunction about going Te on their ass. I'm certainly not saying I'm 100% sure this is Fe, but there are people on this site who seem to believe I'm ExFJ so I'm just theorizing as to why that might be.

 

[Fidelia]

Yeah, that's probably true. I'm not nearly as familiar with the SJ varieties of Fe. I know ENTPs are also more likely to do whatever they do in public, especially when they are younger, so that would make sense.

 

[Vamp]

ohh yeah i can understand how that would happen. that, i don't have a problem with, it's a genuine mistake.

my quintessential life example is a nitpicky overbearing ESxJ conference attendee who humiliated the newly-hired ISFJ conference coordinator as she was just beginning what would lead into a rather brilliant presentation - all over a very minor spelling mistake in one of several dozen quotes the ISFJ had just hand-copied onto the board. i just didn't understand what in hell made her think that pointing out this itty bitty flaw in front of 300 of her peers would accomplish. though perhaps i am mistaken, and she just didn't think, or maybe she thought it was helping restore things to the way they should be, so they could get on with the conference properly. and her Fe just failed.

haha anyway, seriously, isn't it unfortunate that we can't always pull off these reactions when they would be most useful/helpful? sometimes i really want to speak up and just don't have the balls, and then regret it terribly. or do speak up and go overboard and regret that. oh to find the happy medium

Oh, that would bother me, too. That's a really crappy thing to do.

Like marmalade.sunrise I embarrass people who have very "mean" outlooks: weak people are stupid, certain people "deserve" certain misfortunes. Generally, those who perpetuate ignorance. If dropping trou on them embarrasses them so be it. I just can't turn the other cheek when I hear that kind of logic.

 

[Amargith]

That's interesting to know. So state of mind and writing style both impact your ability to persevere through a chunk of writing?

Here's another question (not meant confrontationally) - Why do ENFPs not answer questions directly? I've asked 5 or 6 here and gotten almost no response. What response there was was was an expression of personal experience. Which is informative, but it interests me that the processing seems to be different. If I'm asked a question, I end up writing a book on it after considering it from all the angles possible.

It's hard
It's hard to filter out the questions from all the other thoughts you provoke while writing such a long reply. It boggles the mind and it leaves me confused as to what i coherently wanna reply to. Best way to ask? Just ask straight out, that way I will only have one thought at once, or at least the thoughts you provoke will all have something to do with that question

None of the questions make much sense without any background. That's why the long posts.

You're best off giving the backgroudn to each question, instead of writing a background with four different type questions in. I know that your mind probably weaves them all together in a tight little Ni-package, but it makes our mind just go all over the place

I don't think I'd perceive it so much as a waste of time. However, I would wonder probably why the person didn't answer the question directly. I mean, I would probably use the story, but I'd try to make the point as well so that it didn't get obscured. I realize this isn't how everyone works though. I think it's maybe similar to why I feel the need to explain to you all my thought processes (Ti) when you probably would prefer the basic facts (Te). All that other stuff (which makes up the wall of text) seems to obscure my point. My guess is that because Fi is an introverted function, it does the the same thing, but with experiences and feelings. What do you guys think?

One of my main concerns is that in telling the story, often the ENFP never gets back to the issue at hand (which ironically is how to get back to the issue at hand!).

Going into an ENFP thread though, I don't expect you to change your most natural method of communication. This is your space, and so it makes sense that you'd respond in the way that is comfortable for you. I have learned a lot so far even in the ways that you tend to process information and respond to it. A thread like the INFJ one isn't going to happen in the same way here because the people hosting are going to respond in ENFP ways, not INFJ ways, and that's okay.

One of the reasons that I don't naturally like just doing the bold/bullet points is that I'm afraid someone WILL only read them and not get the context. Maybe us wanting the direct answer is the equivalent of wanting the highlights but getting bogged down in the details.

Actually, it was only here that I learned to go: 'So how do you feel about this stuff?' after I told a story, and return the spotlight. I knew that I came off as self-absorbed and a blabbermouth with people, but I had no clue what I did wrong, as I was always willing to share the spotlight. It was only here that I understood that Fe-users need permission to do so. So this is something that Fi-users should pick up on. Realize you've told a story, don't start another one (coz our Ne just goes on an association-bender and keeps telling stories otherwise!) and make a point to 'return the spotlight' to the original storyteller.

The thing is that I relate through sharing a similar story to show you you're not alone, and that I do understand somewhat what you're going through. However, for me it's so natural to do that, that I expected others to do the same. So I'd share and then there'd be a silence. Uhmmm. Ok...*starts feeling uncomfortable, mind racing* ohhh, here's another story! Or, I'd get so excited that my Ne overheats and goes on a story-high.

If you truly wanna leave them to their own communication style, just say something like: 'I know! I had that happen to me: *insert story* or go: 'Exactly! That's what I was thinking when....*insert rest of story you wanted to say before you got interrupted by our story*

It should get them to shut up, though they might do something to you like that after two sentences again. If they do..its coz they're on a syncing-up buzz Feel free to do exactly the same again and interject your own story. It feels like you're geting closer to us at that point, which is fun. AT some point all the interjections become a bother and one of the two partners in the conversation will relax to let the other finish the story, or we'll just end up not understanding one another and being in our own headspace while giggling simultaneously (giggling teenagers, anyone? )

So for you, connecting would require that both of you exchange your personal experiences first and foremost? I think that would be true for me, but it would probably come in a different sequence.

Yup.

No, it's not that look. I wouldn't insult you with that sweetie! It's the look that says, and mostly in a work (or occasionally a social) environment, "danger, stop ... you are going down a path and no one is following you and they're starting to judge you and not even listen to you or take you seriously!" Sometimes I offer my "Fi warning look" but I can't stop you! LOL, not that it would matter I guess, I just wonder why I feel like you see it and I think you understand it, but don't pay attention.

Lol, I'm sorry, I'm paranoid of that look

I think that happens when someone is on a Fi-rampage, when they consider their values to have been stepped on. Nothing at that point can stop em as it's too damned important to them. They've had their buttons pushed. Or, they're overenthused by Ne and cannot contain the energy and therefore are no longer able to abort mission