[Type 5] 5w4

[Rebe]

I like this description the best so far. I will bold the parts that describes me very well. I am more comfortable with myers-briggs and socionics than ennegrams.

Five with four-wing

Average 5/4 is the prototype personality for research scientists.
Analytical and detached from their emotions, but passionate about beauty and truth, they want to find the ultimate, simple explanation for
everything. Their intellectual fiveness makes them likely to engage in
long, professorial monologues, while their four-wing gives them a shy
self-consciousness. Unlike the more depressive 4/5, they are likely to have
a generally optimistic view, although they can get depressed if they become
overwhelmed by the world's demands. 5/4s are usually less interested in
social interactions than the more other-dependent 5/6.

Balanced 5/4 is more able to participate in life. When the fiveish desire
to withdraw and sort things out is no longer compulsive, then the
consciously chosen time alone becomes a tool for understanding the world,
rather than an entrapping habit. The fourish passion for beauty emerges as
the conscious result of harnessing the emotions rather than being their
slave. Healthy 5/4s begin to deeply understand the simple, elegant way that the awesome complexity of the world emerges from fundamental principles. They find great joy in watching and learning.

When the perception of five and the passion of four are augmented by
eight's power and leadership, plus one's intuitive wisdom, clear
comprehensions can be transmitted to others. Very balanced 5/4s can be
tremendously creative teachers of How The World Works, who explain things
with clean, elegant sentences. Yet for all its simple clarity, their
teaching carries with it a profound appreciation for the subtle beauty of
Creation. (Come with me on a journey of discovery. Let's look together at
the awsome profundity of Nature and Consciousness.)

Unbalanced 5/4 gets lost in the details. The compulsive analysis of five
can lead to elaborate pseudo-logical constructions designed to explain
everything. The four-wing's emotionality adds a flavor of dramatic
hopelessness. Others Simply Do Not Understand. No one could understand. So
5/4 retreats to a place of safety, hoping to escape from view, continuing
to uncover the truth. There is little to no social involvement.

In the extreme, the panic and scattered mania of seven combine with twoish
self-congratulatory hysteria. In a seeming reversal, 5/4 can come back into
the world, awkward and excitable, ready to bolt but equally ready to
passionately defend a bizarre, baroque fantasy world. As inner tension
builds, schizoid withdrawal from reality becomes more and more likely. The
end result is a kind of terrified fugue, completely cut off from reality.
The only escape from the constant overwhelming chaos is inward.

5/4 is generally not much into appearance. Reasonable, ordinary clothing,
not too bold. Comfort is quite important. Thick glasses are common Ñ maybe
a result of a great deal of careful examination of tiny objects during
childhood? There is often a rumpled, dissheveled quality. The exceptions
are those well-dressed 5/4's whose four-wings impel them towards an
aesthetically appealing appearance. Also, note that sometimes unhealthy
5/4s can dress and act in sevenishly colorful ways.

Some 5/4s find work that combines intellect and aesthetics. Cosmologists,
futurists, science fiction authors. Others dive deeply into some highly
specialized discipline, becoming computer programmers, nuclear physicists,
theoretical scientists, molecular biologists, surface scientists, or any of
a thousand other highly technical jobs. There are 5/4 science reporters,
poets, painters, and photographers. Of course, 5/4s can also be found doing
many other kinds of work.

http://users.actrix.co.nz/grimm/5w4.txt

As far as research scientists go, my interest is social science, not science itself and I would primarily want to deal with theoretical data that focuses on the consequences that it would have on civilization. I am more of an idea person than a people person, but my ideas are there because of my concern for people and I believe in my empathy to do good and my ability to see the bigger picture.

Though vice versa, I am only really interested in people who are connected to my ideas. If you live in a developed country and just got divorce, I don't really care. I will be traumatized by your example of human kind, but I will be distraught for no higher purpose. If you live in an underdeveloped country with five kids and no future, then I want to understand your situation, and compare that to the global situation and figure out ways to change that.

I am empathic to my friends and I take my emotions hard sometimes, but I do always have big ideas in my mind. I believe in global possibilities. When I am older, I want to explore and do all of this, not gossip in someone's backyard about someone's divorce. It really pisses me off to see capable adults spend a majority of their time at work gossiping. *shudders*

I have always been this way, but when I couldn't focus this Ne energy on anything but my emotions, I became a fictional writer. And the implications from my stories about my raw emotions disturb me. So I have stopped writing. I also can't read fiction anymore. All those blah blah blahs annoy me for some reason.

I constantly say stuff like I wish I am a robot, so I don't have to feel emotions.

I like to make lists. I like to plan out my life. I appreciate art a great deal, for the aesthetics and the emotional landscapes. An INTJ looked at a painting of a colorful side of a house and felt nothing while I felt very warm and uplifted because it looked like it was in some hideaway countryside town in Europe and I imagine myself there and the possibilities there.

Do I sound like a 5w4? It's either that or 4w5. I don't clearly understand the difference.

 

[yvonne]

i'm 5w4 infp, too... and relate to some of what you're saying... i have to go to bed, but i'd be interested in continuing about this later.

 

[neptunesnet]

Have you compared what you can relate to in the 5w4 description to what you can relate to in the 4w5 description?

That might help.

 

[yvonne]

yeah, i don't... i mean it is relative... emotion is emotion no matter what triggers it. a divorce is a big deal for a family and for the two people involved, even though it isn't a big deal on a global scale, as you say. also, people are happy with different things. it's always important to look at things at the root level. it isn't that "simple". we are all different, but similar and we must have freedom, but responsibility, as well.

things aren't always the way they seem. that's why i want to use my emotions to try to understand people, to care... to live as a human being. i don't want to be a robot, although sometimes i feel like my feelings are coming in the way... i feel deeply, but i want to be fair. i want feelings to be tended to, but i don't want to misinterpret a situation, because i feel a certain way and then end up actually hurting myself, or the person i was trying to help, or understand.

i suppose what i'm trying to say is that i would like to use my feelings in a positive way. i don't want them to turn against me, or the people i deeply care about. i have made mistakes with my feelings, but it happens. logic is something that is more reliable to me, but i have to remember... first attend to feelings, then apply logic... this is what i've learned. i am learning about my feelings, even though sometimes i feel like this robot on my avatar. like "i see your heart... look! i see it... but can you see mine? it is there and you can see it if you try... but be gentle, ok?"

 

[MiasmaResonance]

4w5 vs. 5w4..

First off, I can tell you I am a 5w4 with a fairly strong T (though I sometimes question it, and go back and forth between 5w4 and 5w6).

The 4w5 (which I closely relate to the INFP type, as do many others) has the "intellectual" interest, but it is expressed in almost romantic ways. It becomes more personal, and human, whereas with the 5w4 there is usually complete detachment from the human element.

A 4w5 will become passionate about a cause or an emotion, where the 5w4 will become passionate about an idea or thought.


The 5 here will give both types the motivation to investigate, or seek an ultimate "truth", but for different reasons.

Emotion vs objectiveness.
Romance vs science fiction.

The 4 here will lead both of these types to usually be drawn to abstractions.
As an example: art.
There is however a difference here.
The 4w5 will look at an abstract painting of a grotesquely disfigured human in a surrealistic setting, and have trouble finding beauty or any emotion other than repulsion because the work is not visibly human anymore.

The 5w4 will look at the same art and be drawn to it, because of this ambiguity. It leaves something to uncover, and digest overtime, and the non-human element is not of great importance; in fact, it is welcomed and even desired.

That last bit is of course not true in all cases, though I do believe it conveys the message correctly.

Can the original INFP 5w4 posters perhaps tell me if their F percentage is high or low?

 

[Rebe]

A 4w5 will become passionate about a cause or an emotion, where the 5w4 will become passionate about an idea or thought.

I never like the emotion vs thought/idea debate. I can never figure it out that way.

The 5 here will give both types the motivation to investigate, or seek an ultimate "truth", but for different reasons.

Hmm...

Emotion vs objectiveness.
Romance vs science fiction.

I hate science fiction so I will lean way toward romance and not grotesquely distorted things. Because I imagine human pain in it. But if I see an assortment of blocks in an array of colors, I will still be intrigued.

I am very human-oriented, just don't really like each individual human as they are. Hmmm ...

 

[OrangeAppled]

It's hard to tell when you feel almost equally 4 & 5. I can relate to both, almost wholly. Even the contradictions are manifest, just in different areas of my life. I often test INTP, but always close on T/F. However, in cognitive functions tests, I am always Fi-dom.

The 4 can sound too over-dramatic and the 5 can sound too stoic at times, but then I read that a 5 may question their type because they do feel emotion and think a 5 is not supposed to, and a 4 may question their type because descriptions sounds too emotional and they aren't that expressive....

The art example doesn't seem true to me because an INFP 4 is going to be seeking hidden meaning and will not take things literally. INFPs are also often drawn to the morbid, dark things. Repulsiveness may intrigue an INFP.

 

[Bubbles]

4w5 and 5w4 are the most introverted of all the combos. So of course it'll be a toughie to figure out!

I'd recommend stepping away from the vague profiles for a moment. There are other differences in the types! For example:

4: Focus on themselves.
5: Focus on the world outside themselves.

Which Triad better suits you: Heart or Thinking? Which disintegration/integration better suits you? Google some stuff, wings can get just too confusing sometimes when you don't even have a solid type figured out.

I'm dating a 5w4 and have 4w5 friends. My opinion? 4s and 5s are totally different animals, haha.

 

[MiasmaResonance]

The art example doesn't seem true to me because an INFP 4 is going to be seeking hidden meaning and will not take things literally. INFPs are also often drawn to the morbid, dark things. Repulsiveness may intrigue an INFP.

I wouldn't say they are often drawn to that. There are certain 'other' types within the MBTI personality types, and it is not easy to sort them all out. Some may be attracted to those dark things, while many others may like the lighter side.

I myself am intrigued by dark or morbid things, while other INTPs may not be. As always, there are different modes of thinking and feeling within each type.

Past and present experiences can influence our taste in art just as much as personality can. *shrug*

The letters we are given are an overview, as are the numbers we are given with the Enneagram.

Like I said when I brought up the art thing..it is more an exaggeration to prove a point, rather than an absolute truth.

 

[valentine]

5w4, and F is my lowest score. The integration/disintegration are good places to start at if you are strong in both 4 and 5.

 

[Rebe]

Seems like I act like a 4 when I am stressed/depressed. It may be the core of who I am.
But when I am confident and feel capable, I am more 1 or rather, I aspire to be 1 but the only way of becoming a 1 is by becoming a 5. Does that make sense?

1's Key Motivations: Want to be right, to strive higher and improve everything, to be consistent with their ideals, to justify themselves, to be beyond criticism so as not to be condemned by anyone.

4's Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer." - Oh good god, WHAT.

5's Key Motivations: Want to possess knowledge, to understand the environment, to have everything figured out as a way of defending the self from threats from the environment.

I see 4 as describing most of the negative traits in myself, not negative traits in general, just undesirable traits in myself only because I have certain aspirations. Because of those aspirations, I see 5 as what I Need to Be in order to become a 1. 1 is the type that gets those aspirations completed. And if I don't complete those aspirations, I am not worth anything, personal relationships won't mean anything, everything that I have done and gone through won't mean anything, nothing will make sense.

So what does that mean?

Neither of the disintegration types fit me at all. Integration-wise, I lean more toward 1 than 8.

 

[speculative]

Good idea to look at other factors such as direction of integration. Usually, these can help determine E-type where it is a close call. The levels of health might offer further insight, but they can get complicated.

Is your hidden complaint:

a. that you are so smart that no one else understands the things you understand/know?
or
b. that you are different and don't fit in?

If you know the FiSi loop, I would say that more closely parallels 4w5 than 5w4...






(option a if type 5, option b is type 4)

 

[phthalocyanine]

i'm a 4w5.

much of the imagery i use in my art would be considered dark, even morbid or twisted, but i like to juxtapose that with beauty, elegance, symmetry, natural forms... i see a process of metamorphosis in life and i try to portray that in a way that is honest (including that which is unpleasant), but also essentially constructive, transformative, and beautiful...

well...maybe on a darker day it will be more of a degenerative theme, where something beautiful begins to decay...but from my perspective, decay and death are natural and necessary aspects of life's cycle.

i think both the 4w5 and 5w4 see a lot of broken, incompleteness around them, but also see underlying origins and patterns behind that which is ordered, complete, or beautiful, and instinctively understand that destruction leads to creation, and vice versa...that nature is cyclical rather than finite.

what they do with that understanding seems to be ultimately different, however.

 

[neptunesnet]

Integration-wise, I lean more toward 1 than 8.

Hm. I think Fours integrate to One, but I could be wrong.

 

[Bubbles]

Seems like I act like a 4 when I am stressed/depressed. It may be the core of who I am.
But when I am confident and feel capable, I am more 1 or rather, I aspire to be 1 but the only way of becoming a 1 is by becoming a 5. Does that make sense?

...

I see 4 as describing most of the negative traits in myself, not negative traits in general, just undesirable traits in myself only because I have certain aspirations. Because of those aspirations, I see 5 as what I Need to Be in order to become a 1. 1 is the type that gets those aspirations completed. And if I don't complete those aspirations, I am not worth anything, personal relationships won't mean anything, everything that I have done and gone through won't mean anything, nothing will make sense.

Fact: 4s concentrate more on the negative traits of themselves. That's why it's so prominent in the descriptions: we dwell on our faults, our insecurities, and we wonder about them and try to make sense of them...

5s do this, but with the world. They try to make sense of the world.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Whilst I identify with INFP, this description is a very accurate description of myself.

 

[yvonne]

i think you sound more like a 4 OP... that's just the vibe i get. i don't know, though.

 

[compulsiverambler]

Fact: 4s concentrate more on the negative traits of themselves. That's why it's so prominent in the descriptions: we dwell on our faults, our insecurities, and we wonder about them and try to make sense of them...

5s do this, but with the world. They try to make sense of the world.

I'm 5w4, definitely 5 anyway, and I have in the past put much time and effort into making sense of my faults. However that's because they were making a serious mess of my life and I was very confused about what was wrong and what to do about it. Fives' most influential fear (by definition) is that we're not capable of dealing with everyday life demands. That's the underlying motivation for all the other associated Five behaviours. In my case, I am genuinely, clinically impaired in that area, probably explaining (along with where my particular strengths happen to lie) why I became a Five.

What you say about Fours is true but it can be true of Fives as well, just for different reasons. I haven't tended to dwell on my faults because I wanted to like myself more, but because I wanted to know I could rely on myself more. I am my own unfit parent, not my own distorted mirror.

 

[yvonne]

^ well put.

 

[Bubbles]

I'm 5w4, definitely 5 anyway, and I have in the past put much time and effort into making sense of my faults. However that's because they were making a serious mess of my life and I was very confused about what was wrong and what to do about it. Fives' most influential fear (by definition) is that we're not capable of dealing with everyday life demands. That's the underlying motivation for all the other associated Five behaviours. In my case, I am genuinely, clinically impaired in that area, probably explaining (along with where my particular strengths happen to lie) why I became a Five.

What you say about Fours is true but it can be true of Fives as well, just for different reasons. I haven't tended to dwell on my faults because I wanted to like myself more, but because I wanted to know I could rely on myself more. I am my own unfit parent, not my own distorted mirror.

The bolded I should have made clear. Different types have the same behaviors all the time with different motivations, and I think I was trying to quickly sum up something that should've been better expanded upon.

Also I'd been trying to quickly run through Riso and Hudson for the most basic of basic explanation of differences I could find, and I clearly shouldn't do that without adding an explanation. My apologies.