[MBTI General] rant - being the other guy

[LeafAndSky]

I once made a list of what I need to be included and not included in the relationship, what I wanted, and a few things I thought of would be nice. I think it only covers about 2/3 of a page so far.

It seems like 2/3 of a page would be fine. Basics. Get too detailed and it becomes unlikely that anyone would ever be a match.

 

[Spamtar]

Lists are great in forming a strategy.

Also a good practice is for men to list "who they want" in an ideal mate and females to list "what qualities they want" in a mate.

Typically men and women list it the other way around (i.e. men saying they want a woman who can be good in bed and woman saying they want a man who is courageous). Thus for hetros to switch this around works, if nothing else, as a good exercise. Its not just semantics rather it gives one a helpful perspective.

 

[sLiPpY]

There's alot of great advice here. My 0.02 cents worth:

So when a women talks about her SO in a non-flattering light to you, that's a red flag. Stay away.

And do stay away from married women, you don't know the husband and when jealousy rears its ugly head, you could be in danger.

As for polyamory, do your reasearch. It sound great but it does has its draw back.

Good luck.

Yup, I agree with countrygirl. When a woman is talking with a male about their SO nothing good ever comes of it. That paticular type of interaction indicates the presense of the "cheating" gene.

 

[Bamboo]

Because this was mostly a rant, instead of a directed question, I left out details as I saw fit, because I just wanted to rant, mostly about how girls already in relationships seem to be over represented in my life experience.

Since y'all intend to throw a bunch of advice at me, I guess I'll add these details.

I'm not totally without self-control. I left out how I kept my distance from the one I called laura for weeks, even when she very much wanted me while she was with her guy. I left out how I tried to, with most these girls, encourage them to stay with their guys and gave them tips and strategies to keep them together. I left out how in recent months a single girl practically threw herself at me and I rejected her on the basis of her emotional immaturity.

i left out the girl in college whose ex was one of my friends that i didn't pursue even with signals to do so.

i left out the girlfriend of my friend/roomate in college, who suggested a threesome which clearly made my friend uncomfortable, so I didn't follow suit, nor would I go along with her flirting with me at social events.

i left out how after shannon, I vowed to not be involved with cheating or cheaters because it's good for neither of us. if you don't like the guy you are with, don't stay with him. then i'll see where things go.

i left out that when my client mentioned her cheating friend, that I responded that I'm not into that sort of drama, and I don't understand why people don't try to fix or leave relationships they clearly aren't into. (she agreed.)

and in the last two cases, i didn't emphasize this part enough, or at least it doesn't has as much appeal to answerer's so it wasn't addressed: i really think I'm just paranoid, and that i'm so weirded out by this crap that I can't even act friendly with women in relationships without thinking they are flirting with me.

I think these details have relevancy.

 

[LeafAndSky]

Somewhere over a year ago my best friend (an ESTJ) made me write a list of what I REALLY wanted in a relationship and what I was doing that prevented that from happening. It really opened my eyes to patterns in my behavior that were totally working against me Though I know that Ps and Lists work like oil and water, it IS a helpful exercize

I put the first part of that exercise in a new thread in the Relationships forum. If anyone -- rumvardh or spamtar perhaps -- wants to add suggestions on how to make such a list, feel free.

 

[Bamboo]

There's alot of great advice here. My 0.02 cents worth:

So when a women talks about her SO in a non-flattering light to you, that's a red flag. Stay away.

And do stay away from married women, you don't know the husband and when jealousy rears its ugly head, you could be in danger.

As for polyamory, do your reasearch. It sound great but it does has its draw back.

Good luck.

Yup, I agree with countrygirl. When a woman is talking with a male about their SO nothing good ever comes of it. That paticular type of interaction indicates the presense of the "cheating" gene.

Ok, for the rest of this I'm going to answer responses in order, but I see you're in the thread now slippy so I ask: why do you believe this?

I have reason to suspect the same.

 

[Tiltyred]

Because this was mostly a rant, instead of a directed question, I left out details as I saw fit, because I just wanted to rant, mostly about how girls already in relationships seem to be over represented in my life experience.

Since y'all intend to throw a bunch of advice at me, I guess I'll add these details.

I'm not totally without self-control. I left out how I kept my distance from the one I called laura for weeks, even when she very much wanted me while she was with her guy. I left out how I tried to, with most these girls, encourage them to stay with their guys and gave them tips and strategies to keep them together. I left out how in recent months a single girl practically threw herself at me and I rejected her on the basis of her emotional immaturity.

i left out the girl in college whose ex was one of my friends that i didn't pursue even with signals to do so.

i left out the girlfriend of my friend/roomate in college, who suggested a threesome which clearly made my friend uncomfortable, so I didn't follow suit, nor would I go along with her flirting with me at social events.

i left out how after shannon, I vowed to not be involved with cheating or cheaters because it's good for neither of us. if you don't like the guy you are with, don't stay with him. then i'll see where things go.

i left out that when my client mentioned her cheating friend, that I responded that I'm not into that sort of drama, and I don't understand why people don't try to fix or leave relationships they clearly aren't into. (she agreed.)

and in the last two cases, i didn't emphasize this part enough, or at least it doesn't has as much appeal to answerer's so it wasn't addressed: i really think I'm just paranoid, and that i'm so weirded out by this crap that I can't even act friendly with women in relationships without thinking they are flirting with me.

I think these details have relevancy.

I just want to say that I'm impressed at what a gentleman you are and that you aspire to be.

That is all.

 

[Bamboo]

Key of advice. Do not hang out with woman alone who are taken! It usually only causes trouble.

Bamboo, it sounds like there's been some manipulation going on from the female side of it all and you've just gone with it, not really knowing what to do. Though I don't really know whats going on, but just from what your telling me, this seems to be a bit so.

I cannot tell you the situations I've put myself in because I just "went with the flow" when it came to guys. I've been that 'other girl' without even knowing or wanting to be. The only way to really change this is to put up some boundaries.

These girls may be hurting or bored or whatever, I don't know, but they sure aren't thinking about you. What's to happen if their SO found out? You could be in some deep crap my friend. That's no joke. It is dead on seriousness. These girls don't care about what happens to you (from what I see here), they just want their satisfaction filled, whatever that may be.

So I guess, even if you don't agree or I don't make sense, this is a plea from someone who's been there. You can't continue that way. It will only lead to destruction. Just remember, by you going with it, you become the one to blame. It becomes your fault and your problem.

And if I've made a fool of myself, I am sorry .

Essentially, I agree with this. I agree with the idea of not carrying on with this same pattern, and taking responsibility for my actions.

Stay with 'taken' women only in groups, generally makes sense.

Some theories say that women like to have a man to sustain themselves financially and to be their accepted husband in society in whom they are not really that sexually interested. And the type of men they are really into, but wouldn't take the risk to be with.
If that theory has any truth, you could be one of those guys that women really dig for sex but don't see as a stable provider of security.

Potentially.

Part of the reason I believe I need to make a lot of cash.

But...mo money, mo problems.

Or be polyamorous...

I get you when you say you "go with it." That's what I've done in my past relationships, even though there was something that I really wasn't comfortable with about the situation and/or I knew it wouldn't last. I just went with it, whatever... that's what I thought. May as well get some temporary enjoyment out of it. But the problem with that was... I always ended up unhappy.

So I've decided to just not get too involved with anything that I wouldn't be totally happy with, and that I knew wouldn't last. By "not too involved" I meant: have your fun, but don't get too attached and don't let it get too deep.

That's all I can really tell you dude... except that you've had some really bad luck.

I generally am fine with the idea of enjoying things with single women who aren't going to get attached.

Haven't met any, or at least any I want to be friendly with. I've had to tell girls that I couldn't 'hang out' with them in good conscience (actual words) because I was looking for much less of a relationship than they were suggesting.

Luck...maybe.

 

[ayoitsStepho]

Well I respect that you want to change this pattern for yourself.
Like I said, been there, done that. I just hate to see other people go through issues like that as well. So I hope you don't think I'm jumping up your butt with my "smart" advice, I just don't want to see you get in trouble.

You're a cool, charming, and good looking guy (and a whole lot more, I'm sure). You deserve better for yourself, and don't believe you don't. I'm sure you already know all of this.

Good luck man.

 

[Bamboo]

Why do you keep letting these girls use you?

I could understand it if you were just in it for the sex, but it sounds like you want more.

I think you should show some dignity! Think about the boundaries you have with women, and make some changes. You probably want to try being a bit more choosy about women too.

when I was younger, i was just in it for the sex. or at least it was high on the list. at this point, sex is good, but the girl who doesn't throw drama my way gets some serious attention.

a major change over the years is i'm becoming a good deal more selective, at least about the kind of relationship I'm looking for. The actual person involved has changed also, but only to the extent that certain personality characteristics have become appealing to me.

First of all. I like your honesty and commend you for sharing your life and thought process.

You must have a protective or safe aura around you because these women who are pretty damaged feel comfortable expressing their secrets and lives with you. However, these types of girls will always need "rescuing" and you'll find out that they never want to be "saved".

Big time on that last part. I'm sure that one girl is still in that abusive relationship to this day. I felt really bad making the choice to just abandon that and helping her but it was dragging me way down to try and save this girl and I knew I'd never get anywhere.

To me, It's sounds like you're more perplexed by their behavior than enraptured with it. Even still. If you don't recognize the patterns of behavior in the people you attract you can't change how you respond to them. You asked about wanting to recognize a pattern. I think you've recognized it. These girls you describe are ignorantly predatory. They are emotional vampires. They suck the positive energy out of you so they can feel good enough to give theirs to assholes.

The only way to break the pattern is to know yourself and your desires better. This comes with learning from life experience.

Well, I'm getting a healthy dose of life experience at the moment. I don't know if all these girls were so predatory as much as confused or unsatisfied, but some of them were.

OK. We can be so "go with the flow" that those people who are in our lives romantically tend to call the shots and we follow their lead. I may not be that old but I'm out of my twenties (Thank God) and I can impart this advice that took me a decade to learn:

1) Find out what you don't want in a relationship. Find out what traits are "deal breakers" for you. This knowledge base is constantly being built upon.

Everyone says find out what you want. Personally, that never worked for me because there's so much behavior that I can be "okay with". I think you'll understand what I mean by that. Anyway. I found reverse engineering that phrase helped much more in dating and it made the whole process much simpler. Not to say, it's a simple process.

I believe in this. Generally, I can go along with most things, but the deal breakers stop the show.

2) Take Number 1) and apply those lessons or "deal breakers" to the next romantic interaction and so forth. This may sound bad but with each person you date you should be getting better and better quality a person. Umm...maybe I should say, with each person you will find they fit you better than the last one.

Doesn't sound bad. Just what it is.

3) Trust your gut.

4) Constantly evaluate and fine tune your internal value system (develop Fi?!) I don't know but that's helped me when I'm confused about someone I'm with. Does this person and their beliefs mesh with my own? It clarifies a lot for me and puts the other person is an easy to access "category" and I can respond to them with more confidence because I know where they stand with me.

Sometimes I don't trust my gut if I think my perceptions are skewed. Which may be the case here.

And 4 is a big part of my thoughts in general.

Don't mess with a married person. I know from experience and if you want to PM me about it I will provide you with details or any answers to questions you have. It's tempting because it feels like no strings but just wait...the drama comes in a tidal wave.

Yeah, that's a no go, but I just don't want to be friendly with someone who is trying to cheat, and give the wrong message, but at the same rate I don't want to piss off someone whom I find to be a generally good person whom I can relate to and might make a good mentor just because I'm paranoid.

I think she might just be fishing for a compliment here and there and I'm seeing more than is really there.

I don't know if this helps and I hope that I have made some sense? It's a hard thing to type about. Good luck Bamboo!

Made sense in full. Thanks.

 

[Bamboo]

There's alot of great advice here. My 0.02 cents worth:

So when a women talks about her SO in a non-flattering light to you, that's a red flag. Stay away.

May be true. Seems like it.

And do stay away from married women, you don't know the husband and when jealousy rears its ugly head, you could be in danger.

Under advisement.

As for polyamory, do your reasearch. It sound great but it does has its draw back.

Good luck.

What I like about polyamory is that I don't think it's inherently wrong to like more than one person. It would be to betray the other's trust behind their back. But people are people, we are attracted to many types of person. It's something I don't fully know what to think about.

Maybe you want a long term relationship, you want what she has not necceassary her.



Don't get involved with people who cheat. That will hurts everyone involved (especially children).



Then create your own luck. Don't leave some things to chance. Know what you want.



Don't get involved with prople who cheat.



It is not that black and white. Everybody falls on a spectrum of monogamy.



Don't get involved with people who cheat.

In agreement with everything except the first item. I haven't given it much thought, so I can't rule it out as a possibility. But it seems unlikely that I'd confuse one for the other.

That said, it could be possible to want both. Which stands as my only "legitimate case" actionable scenario to pursue a woman involved with someone else. That is, if I really wanted a long term relationship with her.

 

[Bamboo]

I understand what you were talking about!

Until recently I had similar luck in a lot of circumstances- or worse occasionally - with a break for a long term relationship where HE had another woman thrown into the mix (and to make things worse, I learned much later that he'd been with another girl- his girlfriend of 2 years- when we'd met!)

A lot of it is the detachment thing- if you seem detached from emotional entanglements, it makes you a tasty bait for taken people wanting a quick snack- they are generally looking for someone who they can sleep with and confide in, but not end up entangled with. If you appear to be emotionally detached, you seem like exactly the type of person who can fulfill these needs.

I think this is part of it, except that this would suggest I would attract girls who were interested in...uh..."sexual confidants" who were single and attached in equal proportion, right?

Also, if you have the problem of treating everyone equally, in a friendly way, and joking with people (I know that I do that ) a lot of people will think that you're flirting with them! Listening to their troubles also puts you in that category... it's kind of a movie cliche when you think about it

You have a point.

(so is wanting to jump the handyman- but that's ANOTHER type of movie )

I read a book on starting a handyman business, and there was actually a 2 page section on handling adulterous housewives.

Somewhere over a year ago my best friend (an ESTJ) made me write a list of what I REALLY wanted in a relationship and what I was doing that prevented that from happening. It really opened my eyes to patterns in my behavior that were totally working against me Though I know that Ps and Lists work like oil and water, it IS a helpful exercize

Once I realized what I really wanted and what obstacles I was putting in the way it was a lot easier and now I'm happily taken as the ONLY woman!

Also- feel free to ask questions- like I've said, I've been there

Ok ok, the list idea sounds alright.

Thanks.

 

[miss fortune]

I think this is part of it, except that this would suggest I would attract girls who were interested in...uh..."sexual confidants" who were single and attached in equal proportion, right?

look around... you might get some nice single ladies who are leering at you but less bold... you never know!

I read a book on starting a handyman business, and there was actually a 2 page section on handling adulterous housewives.

Ok ok, the list idea sounds alright.

Thanks.

it worked out well here, and you're welcome!

 

[ayoitsStepho]

look around... you might get some nice single ladies who are leering at you but less bold... you never know!

Heck yeah! I don't see how he couldn't get any other type of woman. I mean, come on, he's a cutie! Sheesh, it's not an impossible task!

 

[Bamboo]

How about just simply practicing some self-control?

Do you know what you want out of these relationships? Is it just sex? If it's more than just sex, do you get that a relationship born out of cheating isn't the healthiest thing in the world? And still you are compelled? Would you ever consider keeping things platonic for a while?

I do.

Sometimes. Generally, no. Yes, but I see the potential for a better match if it's conducted properly. In some regard, yes. Yes.

I have noticed of recent how very charming SPs are so start off with giving yourselves a pat on the back for being charming and approachable. ... Enough with being pulled into their world...as if they were the tour guide taking you on a tour...its important...especially for a man...to take the reins in his hands and pull the subject of your affection into your world (if they have a boyfriend when you do it thats their problem. Some of the best lovers are ones who have boyfriends.) Use your P and don't look on each seduction a means to an end rather make it an artistic process without boarders.

Umm...ok.

Maybe the taking the reins part applies.

I also wonder about self-control and SPs' handle on it. One of my close girlfriends is an ISFP and she too just goes with the flow when it comes to relationships. She discriminates heavily when it comes to the guy's appearance, but not much else, which leads me to think she's NOT thinking of long-term potential as a decisive factor. She goes with what feels good to her at the moment and doesn't worry too much about the possibilities.

Good with bad.

Self control... what's that? I thought control was that nasty thing parents try to hold over us when all we want to do is have fun!

Yeah, we all need to learn about it sometime or the worst that can happen is a knife in the back. Didn't need a consequence that bad to get that out of my headspace though - I just got cheated on myself.

Bummer.

Why?

 

[Fecal McAngry]

so there has to be a pattern, but i don't see it, and i can't understand it.

and of course, being a 21 year old male, i'm all emotional over - wait for it - women. what a shocker. first of my kind, right? but I digress.

with the first few girls, it wasn't a problem. c from california was just a weekend I only count her on the list cause she was my first. she just decided she liked me, and i went along with it. she went on back to cali and shannon came after her - same situation, basically. she liked me, i followed along. she left for college and is out of the picture. i only mention her because she comes up later.

Side note: This was all in high school. I'll assure you that I wasn't a ladies man, and I was far from being popular. I spent 90% of my time in my head anyway, what did I know?

Molly tried to hook up with me drunk, and being quite sober, i pushed her off me. after apologizing to me (i was rather unphased but amused) eventually, she asks me to homecoming. i had some puppy love for her. that fling self combusts. to show her how much she doesn't like me (i guess?) she hooks up with some guy, and then another girl in front of me. and some other guy later in the night. I bring this up because it's the closest I've been to "cheated on", but i wasn't that hurt. i even see her with her new guy, and i decide it was just better. she was a popular, high maintenance girl, i was some quiet loner, it didn't work. they did.

Marie is where the trouble starts. Marie always liked to talk to me about her relationships and exploits, typically via IM. i'm not sure why, but she just liked giving me details - and lots of them. this is a regular thing between us, goes on for months. apparently her boyfriend is some drugged out asshole. she comes on to me, and i go for it. he sat right next to me in computer lab, too. never talked to the guy.

i don't really feel guilty about it, and the situation disappears when she goes off to college.

remember shannon? well she comes back from college (i'm still in hs, maybe senior year...) during some break and we hang out. we hook up and immediately she starts crying. she has a boyfriend, apparently. I feel like crap, even though I really didn't know I was doing anything. I just don't like making girls cry.

hs ends, i go abroad for some time. meet a girl there, at the time i'd assume she had no bf and i think that was the reality of the situation. but months later, back in the states, we hang out again. on top of me, while hooking up, she tells me she has a boyfriend. but she keeps kissing me. my reaction is . i don't know what that meant.

so at this point in the story i'm in college. i'm less in my head now.

time in college was rather uneventful. there were two girls, and neither had a boyfriend, but FWIW, one seemed to be into the idea of polyamory.

after a year and a half, i'm out of college and taking a year off to figure things out. this was about...14 months ago.

i reflect back on this muddled history and decide to do unto others as i would have them do unto me.

except, I wondered, that if I ignored my girl, or didn't meet her needs, then I would pretty much expect she would go elsewhere. i really don't like the whole behind the back thing though.

with these thoughts in limbo, I meet laura, an acquaintance from HS, out jogging. we flirt online. we meet up and...she won't stop talking about her boyfriend. it's non-stop almost. except she seems interesting, and i actually like this girl, in a way different than the rest. and she's flirting with me.

we talk a lot about her boyfriend. she's in a bad situation. the guy is an asshole, and it's clearly and emotionally abusive relationship. he also has some sort of alcohol problem.

i can't decide if i like her. i feel strongly for her, but her choices to remain with this guy, who "when he is asleep, he holds me so dearly" but yet when he is awake gets drunk, calls her a whore (in front of his parents, no less, who encourage her to leave him) and stalks her, suggests that her decision making skills are less than stellar.

my phone rings, and she's outside my house at weird hours. she cries and tells me stories about the latest thing the guy did. it makes me angry. i worry that if i ever meet the guy, i'd end up doing something stupid. i also worry about her dependence on me.

i hang out with her regularly though. there is high sexual tension. eventually, they "take a break" which means that we basically tear into each other. except, suddenly, she becomes very strange, like she is thinking of him, and it was the most awkward sexual encounter i ever had, and i'd never want to repeat anything like it again.

we stop hanging out.

so time passes, and I meet shannon again. the shannon i used to know, who was essentially a sweet girl, is different now. scattered. she has some boyfriend, and she tells me about how they never have sex and she wants to dump him. after all this crap in my past, i think i should have just smacked her in the face and moved along. but somehow, she convinces me after a few days that she has needs and I, lacking impulse control, decide to go along with things.

i didn't really enjoy it. ugh.

i immediately regret it, and I avoid her, explaining I don't want to be involved.



present day. so i'm doing handyman work. I meet this one woman. She's 40 or so, but young spirit. Except, y'know, she's married...and has kids. Let me repeat that. SHE IS MARRIED AND HAS 4 F#%$NG KIDS. So now I'm paranoid. Is she just friendly? Maybe she's just friendly and laid back. I mean, she did wear make-up that one time...but...I dunno, maybe she had somewhere to go after.

And lots of women go on about how their husbands don't fix stuff around the house. They argue a lot when he's around. They have me for dinner after working. Reading their body language is funny. He puts his arm around her shoulder and she leans away. Maybe funny isn't the right word. She mentioned divorcing him, and I suggest that maybe they're just having a rough spot.

She told me a story today. Her friend, well she's having an affair. Apparently, with a contractor. And she's cheating on the contractor with some other guy. Imagine that.

But really, I'm just selecting details which stand out to me as incriminating, cause dammit, I like her (I hate being me, btw). Which is a problem on it's own, but maybe this is just in my head. I know I don't want to get involved in this crap. It's just short term thrills vs. long term shittiness and suffering. Ugh.


Oh, and, there's another girl. Just met her. Maybe she's friendly too, and I just can't be around a friendly female without thinking she's coming on to me. I mean, she's very charming, I think that's just her manner. She makes that eye contact with everyone, I guess.

She really seemed like she wanted to meet up tonight, but she's southern...maybe I'm reading this all wrong, they're really friendly.

Besides, she told me she has a boyfriend.

Sanity, in women, is a virtue. A vastly underrated virtue. You're young, you'll learn from experience, I'm sure...

 

[Bamboo]

There's your Step 1, Bamboo. You seem pretty open, so maybe you'd like to use this thread to do it? [That would ensure that it actually happens.]

We're waiting.

Thanks for volunteering me.

I once made a list of what I need to be included and not included in the relationship, what I wanted, and a few things I thought of would be nice. I think it only covers about 2/3 of a page so far.

It seems like 2/3 of a page would be fine. Basics. Get too detailed and it becomes unlikely that anyone would ever be a match.

I did write out an action plan about what I'm doing with the current two "suspects." That was a detailed 2 pages.

Lists are great in forming a strategy.

Also a good practice is for men to list "who they want" in an ideal mate and females to list "what qualities they want" in a mate.

Typically men and women list it the other way around (i.e. men saying they want a woman who can be good in bed and woman saying they want a man who is courageous). Thus for hetros to switch this around works, if nothing else, as a good exercise. Its not just semantics rather it gives one a helpful perspective.

?



My list:
- not clingy
- developed communication skills - especially body and intonation
- not overly concerned with image
- is interested in self-improvement

Otherwise, I lack the experience to elaborate on this in an authoritative manner.

 

[Bamboo]

I just want to say that I'm impressed at what a gentleman you are and that you aspire to be.

That is all.

Thank you.

Well I respect that you want to change this pattern for yourself.
Like I said, been there, done that. I just hate to see other people go through issues like that as well. So I hope you don't think I'm jumping up your butt with my "smart" advice, I just don't want to see you get in trouble.

You're a cool, charming, and good looking guy (and a whole lot more, I'm sure). You deserve better for yourself, and don't believe you don't. I'm sure you already know all of this.

Good luck man.

No offense taken with advice. Thanks.

look around... you might get some nice single ladies who are leering at you but less bold... you never know!

Heck yeah! I don't see how he couldn't get any other type of woman. I mean, come on, he's a cutie! Sheesh, it's not an impossible task!

Leering but less bold?

 

[ayoitsStepho]

Leering but less bold?

Unless you like those bold leering type better .

 

[countrygirl]

I also wonder about self-control and SPs' handle on it. One of my close girlfriends is an ISFP and she too just goes with the flow when it comes to relationships. She discriminates heavily when it comes to the guy's appearance, but not much else, which leads me to think she's NOT thinking of long-term potential as a decisive factor. She goes with what feels good to her at the moment and doesn't worry too much about the possibilities.

Sounds like me when I was in my twenties. Maybe it's because she is not interested in getting married and consequently does not think of qualities in a man regarding marriage.

When I decided that marriage was for me, I made a list of want I wanted in a man. It was half a page.