Type my brothers: The Younger One

[Stepan]

So I'm trying to type my two brothers. I thought to make two threads on it since I can directly write about my younger brother (he is also my best friend and I know his views and feelings better than those of my older brother - I'm going to observe him a little in the comings weeks).
My grip on the different cognitive functions is really bad so that's why I need the help of you guys. This is what I came up with:

- I think he is an intuitive type. He studies philosophy and theology. The latter I find remarkable since he's also an atheist, but he finds the perspective of believers interesting and he thinks it's a nice addition to studying philosophy. I always thought this pointed to a combination of Ti and Fe. He tries to place himself in the perspective of people he does not agree with but at the same time uses it to make connections with his philosophical interests. He also tends to overthing and doubt himself, not sure if these point to having Ti in your stack, but it's the connection I made.

- I also know Ti is a judging functions, maybe that makes him inflexible at times. He's never really rigid and he is pretty open minded about things (though he doesn't always make that impression on people), but he does have some routines and can be quite stubborn. If he doesn't want to do something he won't do it, for example, whenever people ask him out to go to a club or something (he hates that), he will just say no instead of going for the sake of his friends. This is probably also an unwillingness to take outward risks and might point to Si maybe? I know it got him in a social isolation and he got depressed, he never managed to make new friends in his university city and always keeps to himself.

- Regarding Se and Si. He is quite sensitive actually. He has a weird phobia of cheese (not just the smell, but the way it looks, feels and taste). There are more issues regarding food but let's not get into that. This made me think he might have Se but I'm not sure it would also contrast the point made above.

- Then regarding Ni and Ne. Not sure if this is a good example. I wrote he has difficulties making new friends. However, whithin our group of friends he can be quite comfortable if the situation is right (participating in an activity he enjoys). Last week we were playing a game of 'Machiavelli' with a couple of friends and he really got in his element. Making jokes, hyping up the most stupid of cards. He's quite good at making up stories on the spot as well, and in general his humor revolves around bringing up connections between things and coining names stuff. It made me think he has Ne over Ne. But it also made me have doubts about Se and Si. He is not really an active person. But when he does get involved in something physical (and social) like when we played volleyball in the pool, it really seems to lift his spirits and he becomes almost hyperactive (it also seems to channel his Ne - he can take on a different persona and builds a context, not sure if this is Ne, but he is quite imaginative in this aspect). So maybe he has underdevelopped Se.

This made me think he’s either an INTP (Ti - Ne - Si - Fe) or INFP, since I’m not really sure about Fe or Fi. He seems to have this typical perceiver attitude in which he has a lot of interests, but they all remain in his head. And not sure if this is typical of perceivers but he also is full of doubt and when he has to make a decision he has to think about it for a long time. Then, after coming to a conclusion he just acts it out without second guessing himself. I probably would lean more towards typing him an INTP, but he also has a very emotional side and he seems to understand his emotions well (he's prone to self-reflection and can be brooding). I'd say INTP because he is the biggest recluse I know (though that seems to be more of an INTP stereotype), INFP because he can be emotional. I'm only not too sure about him having Fi in his stack. His facial expressions are quite revealing and I always thought that was an indication of Fe.

What do you guys think?

EDIT: Is Ti concerned with logical structures and rules? Like the ones you find in linguistics or mathematics. Because my brother is not handy with them. Maybe he's more INFP then INTP.

 

[Earl Grey]

I think he is an intuitive type. He studies philosophy and theology. The latter I find remarkable since he's also an atheist, but he finds the perspective of believers interesting and he thinks it's a nice addition to studying philosophy. I always thought this pointed to a combination of Ti and Fe. He tries to place himself in the perspective of people he does not agree with but at the same time uses it to make connections with his philosophical interests. He also tends to overthing and doubt himself, not sure if these point to having Ti in your stack, but it's the connection I made.

If there was ever a type that would try debate or see things from a different angle just for the sake of it itself, it would be -NTP. From my observations, they tend to be concerned that what they are seeing is the 'real truth', so they take their time to approach it from various angles to see if there is anything they missed. This is how they learn.
Doubting and overthinking one's self is not type-exclusive. It might help, however, to know about what and why.

I also know Ti is a judging functions, maybe that makes him inflexible at times. He's never really rigid and he is pretty open minded about things (though he doesn't always make that impression on people), but he does have some routines and can be quite stubborn. If he doesn't want to do something he won't do it, for example, whenever people ask him out to go to a club or something (he hates that), he will just say no instead of going for the sake of his friends. This is probably also an unwillingness to take outward risks and might point to Si maybe? I know it got him in a social isolation and he got depressed, he never managed to make new friends in his university city and always keeps to himself.

I--- in general can be very picky and choosy with how they spend their time and energy, especially INT-. Routines & non-risk taking does not necessarily point to -J, and you did not elaborate enough about it to make a conclusion. From what you have mentioned above, it seems that he just values his own priorities and his own time and method of doing things. From this paragraph alone he seems very I--- at least. Also, phobias and generally avoidant attitudes towards foods are not type-exclusive.

Your next paragraph yet again points to I---, I--- can be very animated and 'extroverted'-looking in their field of interest / expertise. If he is consistently like this, then you can be fairly confident that he is I--- at least. Ne tends to make random connections based on the current observation, I notice that Ni tends to be more precise, and would relate it to something subjective (from their self / minds). Spontaneously building a persona might point to Ne+Fe, thus -NTP. Also, your example with the pool does not necessarily point towards a type if it's a one-time thing, doing so would suggest that certain types have certain attitudes towards sports in particular, when it is not the case. If it is a hobby of theirs, any type can be more engaged / animated in doing it.

but he also has a very emotional side and he seems to understand his emotions well (he's prone to self-reflection and can be brooding). I'd say INTP because he is the biggest recluse I know (though that seems to be more of an INTP stereotype), INFP because he can be emotional. I'm only not too sure about him having Fi in his stack. His facial expressions are quite revealing and I always thought that was an indication of Fe.

I mildly agree with the final sentence, but more because it is a trend I notice does happen in Fe/Fi, but not always (think ENFP. Stereotypes do not paint them as an inanimate rock). So far I everything has leaned more to INTP / Ti but this. To clarify, however, being emotional is yet another thing not type-specific. It would help to know what he gets emotional about and how he processes it / what he does with it.

I have seen INTP that know that they are feeling something, but the depth of their understanding / how they describe it tends to pale in comparison to INFP. INTP would tend to rationalize it and see if it is 'logical', see where it comes from, see if they could do something about it. If it is illogical, they might feel better, while INFP would tend towards feeling for the sake of feeling. That is how I see them processing their emotions. Is he like that?

EDIT: Is Ti concerned with logical structures and rules? Like the ones you find in linguistics or mathematics. Because my brother is not handy with them. Maybe he's more INFP then INTP.

Yes, but the key is that they are concerned with their own logical structures. I notice they can be impractical or stubborn when it does not fit some kind of frame of logical coherency or what they have already declared to be true. This also ties back to the stubbornness you mentioned above.

Te tends to see what works best / is most effective, to put it in an analogy Te would be more focused on the machine, while Ti digs deeper to see what makes the machine, what makes things work the way they do, going off of and sticking to baseline definitions / the core mechanics of what makes up every little component of a structure.

 

[Stepan]

[MENTION=35920]Sterres[/MENTION], first of all, thanks for giving such an in depth reply! I'll elaborate on the points you mentioned.

Doubting and overthinking one's self is not type-exclusive. It might help, however, to know about what and why.

The latest example I can think of is when he was trying to decide if he should take up a sport. He wanted to do Judo. But then he started to weigh all the pros and cons. Instead, he could have gone to an initiation lesson but now we are a year later and he is still going on about taking a judo class. In most things that involve a social context he gets anxious, I think he is too worried about what other people might think of him, he feels judged I think. Which again, probably is not a type specific thing. You said: "it seems that he just values his own priorities and his own time and method of doing things". That's true, but I think this is what got him so isolated, especially regarding social issues. I think he felt he would never succeed in finding a group of friends like he has back home, where he can be himself, so he dropped to idea of finding new friends (also because he feels anxious when meeting new people). Perhaps this also points to Si? In general, he thinks a lot before moving to action sometimes resulting in not taking any action at all. I also think he overestimates certain tasks that he is given and overthinks about how to execute them, mainly ending in them not being executed at all. Could this be an ISTJ thing maybe? Sorry if I'm still too vague, I'm trying to think about concrete examples.

It would help to know what he gets emotional about and how he processes it / what he does with it.

From what he told me, a lot of his emotional issues seem to rise out of self-pity. A lot of it comes from what I've written above. He sees himself as an inept figure and that makes him sad. From his depressive episode I learned that he processes a lot of these issues by making up stories in his head. He will picture himself in social situations in fictional worlds (but involving people from his everyday life) and of course there he is the master of the scene. But this is part of the problem, he replaced his need for actual social interaction with fictional social interaction, and for a time that worked for him. He put up a facade for a while, but he finally broke down after a birthday party, I don't know why it happened at that point. I don't know, his emotions don't seem to revolve around failing other people but more about being a failure in his own eyes. It's a bit hard to understand how he feels, he comes off as confused and frustrated with himself, somebody who wants to break out off his shell but does not know how. During his depression he also seemd a bit more impulsive, he suddenly bought a drum kit and also a trumpet and a mandolin. For some reason he also thinks our dad feels contempt for him, he often gets a little emotional at him and asks him if he did anythign wrong, even when everything is fine. Again all of this might not be indicative of any cognitive function.

Perhaps I first need to get a better grip of the different functions then analyse him again.

 

[Earl Grey]

He wanted to do Judo. But then he started to weigh all the pros and cons. Instead, he could have gone to an initiation lesson but now we are a year later and he is still going on about taking a judo class.

I find that Ji doms (introverted judgers, that is, Ti and Fi) are generally able to list out pros and cons, but are less able to lay them out in a step-by-step fashion to be able to make concrete decisions. Ti in general I notice goes into what might sometimes be called 'analysis paralysis' mode. Focusing more (overly focusing, rather) on the subjects itself and listing points, pros and cons to each, rather than actually using them in the context of making a choice.

At first glance, it seems most obvious; the choice with more pros are what would be best, would it not? They are good at picking out what looks good on paper, but when it comes to application, they tend to be more doubting, because they excel most at studying something as a subject than its more practical applications, generally speaking. The most deadass giveaway is that Je (extraverted judgers, Te and Fe) seem to tie their analysis in context of a goal they have (and is why they are stereotypically more 'decisive)', rather than analyzing a subject or concept just for the sake of the subject / analysis itself, which is more Ji.

[...] his own priorities and his own time and method of doing things". That's true, but I think this is what got him so isolated, especially regarding social issues.

It's the sides of a single coin, focus more on self vs focus more on the outside. It does not necessarily directly tie into his introversion; people who stick to their values / prioritize themselves are not necessarily introverts. His anxiety is what stops him more than his focus on himself. You mentioned he fears judgement; it seems that he does have some Fe in that, that in a part of his concerns (in terms of making decisions) stems from how it would be socially viewed / accepted, which is only exacerbated by his anxiety (they are not necessarily directly causational of each other), and as a whole does not necessarily correlate with Si. Si as a function is not associated at all with social anxiety or focus on self in the context you have mentioned.

Can you explain what you mean by him overestimating tasks given to him? Tbh, ISTJ's are among the more structured / can do, if we're talking about taking on tasks. Thinking a lot before taking action; is it because he is laying out plans, contigency plans, or analysis paralysis / he does not know what to do? Former points to more J, latter points to more I--P.


The huge chunk you mentioned about his emotional issues and his method of coping reminds me more of enneagram, actually. He might be 5w4, your examples are almost textbook 5w4. You might want to look that up (as well as levels of health), see if they apply to him. These kinds of things apply more to the person's background and surroundings, what matters is how they process them. If I were to guess however, it does seem like Ji + Pe (introverted judging + extroverted perceiving). If he is E5 and INTP, there is a high correlation between INTP and E5 as well.

As for his frustrations towards himself, he seems to be going through a degree of personal turmoil. I can't see how this would / could necessarily apply to any type or function, and it's difficult in general to type people under stress. I'm not too well-versed in it, and I don't really have any comments for it. I don't know how much will it help, but there are some theories out there that deal with how each type appear under pressure / stress, by examining how they react in certain situations and how they behave when using their tertiary / inferior functions. It might help.

Perhaps I first need to get a better grip of the different functions then analyse him again.

That would definitely help. I hope that this thread gets more attention as well; I am not necessarily the best at typing others but I've said what I do know.
Typing yourself first as well would also help greatly; because you will have a more personal understanding of what each function / type is like, and thus be able to more accurately assess others while using yourself, and what you know, what you are / are not as a benchmark.

It would do to cross check everything, and finding type is a journey. Some take months or even years, and you are fairly new (? from what it seems) and typing someone else. It may take time, gather what you know and assess them accordingly for accuracy and relevance. I, you, may very well be wrong. Good luck.

 

[Stepan]

[MENTION=35920]Sterres[/MENTION], thanks again for the elaborate answer! What you described as 'analysis paralysis' does really fit his case. I'm not sure if he had a particular goal in taking on a new sport, I think it was just to work out a little and get out more. It seemed to be tied up to his emotional condition. So he probably is more of a Ji-dom then. I take it that Ti-doms and Fi-doms weigh the pro's and cons in differents ways?
And alright, I thought of Si because he seemed to project the task of making new friends to a past experience of his own friend group. Together with his inaction towards making new friends it seemed like what is often described as a loop between the dominant and tertiary function. But again, I don't know the functions that well to be able to recognize any such loop. But you're probably right about the Fe part, which also could lead us more towards typing him as an INTP? I also looked into the enneagrams and 5w4 does seem to fit his personality. He doesn't seem like a healthy one, one site described how type 5's often will be prone to intentionally take on radical views. That is something he does, at one side it looks like he does so intentionally (just out of spite), but at the other side it also looks like he resorts to taking such views because he feels lost.

Can you explain what you mean by him overestimating tasks given to him?

I mean that he will take the smallest of tasks too serious resulting in him not getting anything done. He thinks about the task but he doesn't go over to taking action sometimes because he feels intimidated. He will sometimes skip exams even when he studied for them. He turns things that aren't really that important into things that are really important. I think that also leads to analysis paralysis. When he was depressed I know that he so badly wanted to avoid meeting people he knew, that he would think about what route to take to get food. In that case he would also make contingency plans (but he's also pretty good at making these sorts of things up on the fly). But he probably is more of an I--P I think.
And I'm going to look in tertiary funtions/stress theories. That is also why I was looking at Si tendencies within him. And I should probably try to type myself indeed, enneagram also looks interesting so I'll definitely am going to look into that as well!
Again thanks for the reply!

 

[Stepan]

[MENTION=35920]Sterres[/MENTION] Sorry for the double post. But I was thinking about an interaction my two brothers had. I consider my older brother to be an ESTP, I'm almost 100% sure of it.
Anyway, my older brother started off by ranting about how prison systems are wrong, that they only make things worse and that they should completely restructure the whole prison system. He had this thought on his own accord, probably through some Se experience he had. Then my younger brother joined in and agreed after which he started talking about scandinavian prison systems and how they are probably better in regards to integration. But my younger brother was not sure about his point because he hadn't read enough research about this subject after which he started talking about the system of punishment and justice in general.
Could this be an example of Ti (by older brother who came to a judgement by using his own logic) vs Te (my younger brother, who was more concerned with the research on the subject)? My younger brother often reference other frameworks when he is developping ideas or when he trying to compare his ideas to other. This made me think perhaps he is more of an Te user and not so much an Ti user. Meaning that he is probably an INFP. The enneagram 5w4 also really fits with him.

EDIT: I had to think about another example of him. Not sure if this is a Ti-Fe thing or more of a Fi-Te thing. But the local elections are coming up pretty soon. The party that is running our city at the moment has been running it since forever. However now there is this other party moving up and threatening the current one's position. He will vote for that party not because he agrees with their policies (he even disagrees with a lot of them) but just because he wants to diminish the power of our current party, because he wants something new. It doesn't sound really rational but there is some logic to it. So perhaps this more of a Ti thing to do?

 

[Earl Grey]

[MENTION=38159]Stepan[/MENTION] I'll get back to this soon.
There are other things which require my attention, and once I'm free and within the MBTI frame of mind I'll give this my full attention.

In the meantime, it might help to consult others with what you have gathered thus far.

 

[Stepan]

[MENTION=38159]Stepan[/MENTION] I'll get back to this soon.
There are other things which require my attention, and once I'm free and within the MBTI frame of mind I'll give this my full attention.

In the meantime, it might help to consult others with what you have gathered thus far.

Alright! I am trying to do some research of my own,but sometimes it makes things more complicated.