[ESTJ] Friendship and Relationship Imbalances

[Eilonwy]

It's The Art of Asking.

 

[EJCC]

Following y'all's advice and saying my prelimary, uncertain thoughts, instead of delaying my reply until I'm certain.

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION], regarding how I should be what I want to find: I don't know what I want to find, because I don't know what I SHOULD find. I'll answer your questions when I have a bit more time.

And [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION], I'm sure you're right about neediness and that being an indicator of something. I know what I need is connection, and I know that I don't want to feel isolated and alone. But what I'm still working on is how to meet those needs in a real-food way, not a food-photograph way, per [MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION]. At this point I don't trust myself to know what real food is.

Also, happy New Year's Eve!

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It's The Art of Asking.

I've been meaning to read that!! I love Amanda (Fucking) Palmer.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

At this point I don't trust myself to know what real food is.

The thing about this metaphor is that it makes it sound like it should be easy to figure out (because figuring out that difference literally is ridiculously easy). It's not. And many- if not most- people go their whole lives without needing to figure out the ways in which they aren't eating 'real food' because life circumstances don't especially necessitate it.

And it's not like it's something you can check off- it's not a 'figure it out, then you're done' kind of thing- it's more like a matter of degrees. Sorta like physical health- you can't just cultivate the muscle to bench 200 lbs and then you're that strong forever (eta: nor can you start by immediately being able to bench press 200 lbs /eta). It's always a matter of cultivating as much awareness of real food/picture distinction as you feel the need to, and then maintaining it.

Also, happy New Year's Eve!

Back at ya!

 

[Evo]

[MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]


I think I've talked about this before....that I look up to an ESTJ so/sx 8w9 in my life. She's elderly though, so she's had lots of experience now. I actually think that all of her experience helps in her relationships. Whenever we talk, no matter what the subject is, she pauses and thinks about it. Then she will give an answer based off how she felt when she experienced something similar. Her advice is always great.

It may sound harsh, but i think one of the reasons her and I are able to be so vulnerable with each other (we've both cried to each other) is because she's experienced a wonderful marriage, that ended tragically with her husband dying from cancer. She has said that before that, she was impatient and not as open to love as she is now. So her and I bond, because I've had a similar problem of watching someone die slowly right in front of my eyes, without me being able to help them.

The other thing I'd like to add, is that her philosophy is like no one else's I know. She is my role model because of this. She really believes that things will work out. She doesn't even question the fact that something might not turn out great. At the same time, she accepts challenges in her life as something fun to overcome. She welcomes them. She also knows how to appreciate the moment, and make people feel welcome.

I think she has a lot of social finesse. This helps to not scare off people. She is patient, understanding, and wise. She's a very strong woman, but you wouldn't know it unless you sat down and had a conversation with her. She has said that she tries not to prove her strength or significance anymore.


Idk if any of this is helpful, but I really do think that when she taps into her experiences, she's able to be genuine, and helpful, while still being vulnerable. She's still very blunt, and to the point though btw, which is probably why we get along so great lol.

 

[Ursa]

When I think "needy ESTJ", ime, that looks like someone getting up in my business and needing me to have the same goals/priorities and getting scary angry when I simply don't care/don't share them. Like, panicky angry. As if <incoming assumption> they're displacing all the urgency of other unattended-to feelings onto some 'common' goal/priority and getting angry when others don't 'see' that it's a 'common' goal/priority (because it isn't really 'common'- this is how ESTJs come across like the borg, as trying to impose 'truth' on others through sheer willpower).

This is true. But the motivations behind it vary between enneagram types. I do this not only when I want to ensure that things are working, but when I want to ensure that others are protected and respected. Disrespect comes in many forms - on one end of the spectrum, treating others like children. This includes condescension, micro-managing, "handling" adults who can make choices for themselves, curbing their rational autonomy (i.e. limiting their choices). One the other end of the spectrum, overt forms of abuse such as violence, personal attacks and coercion. If someone doesn't share ensuring that people are treated with dignity and respect as a priority, that's a good way for them to wind up in an argument with me. Sometimes the arguments result in growth, sometimes all that happens is that no one wants to budge. I tend to write off the latter as being due to pride, move on and address the problem in other ways.

 

[EJCC]

Who is the person who most enables you to feel like yourself? Who do you know if you were to show your emotions would not try to fix them, minimize them or denigrate them? Who is tender and allows your emotions to exist without judgement? This is the person to practice openness with.

I have been practicing openness with this person (my INTP 9w1 best friend). But I don't know if that practice can be expanded outward to other people. I also am not good at being open with her in any way except in person. So, not via text, not over the phone. Nothing spontaneous.

The thing about this metaphor is that it makes it sound like it should be easy to figure out (because figuring out that difference literally is ridiculously easy). It's not. And many- if not most- people go their whole lives without needing to figure out the ways in which they aren't eating 'real food' because life circumstances don't especially necessitate it.

And it's not like it's something you can check off- it's not a 'figure it out, then you're done' kind of thing- it's more like a matter of degrees. Sorta like physical health- you can't just cultivate the muscle to bench 200 lbs and then you're that strong forever (eta: nor can you start by immediately being able to bench press 200 lbs /eta). It's always a matter of cultivating as much awareness of real food/picture distinction as you feel the need to, and then maintaining it.

I can already tell that this is going to drive me crazy, in 2017. It's already driving me crazy.

Why can't I have breakthroughs on command?

 

[EJCC]

Returning to this thread to share that I now realize just how much it bothers me when people help me. Asking for help is okay, but when people try to help me, unsolicited, I don't react well, especially when that help is of a personal sort.

That tendency has been discussed in this thread, but I didn't think that applied to me, until today.

Can't speak for other ESTJs, but I think in my case, it comes from a need to be, and to be seen as, my best self -- and feeling condescended to when I'm treated as a normal person with normal needs. It's strange, because what feels to me like disrespect is actually the utmost respect.

So much ego, lol.